General Discussion Thread #2

[natsound]

I want to ask if anyone has seen someone shot dead before?

I was discussing this with someone who once witness to a shooting after a bar fight gone wrong. Person was shot in the shoulder first and then chest, killing him. My friend told me that after the first shot into the shoulder, the victim didn't scream, cry, try to move away etc...he apparently just stood there with a look of utter shock and disbelief on his face for 2 seconds before the second shot killed him. Do you think it's at all possible that that's what happened to Reeva if the first shot didn't render her unconscious? Hence her reason for not shouting out? Has anyone got info for this?

I agree with this... I would imagine someone would be stunned and silent after taking a bullet.

I do think she would have said something if she'd heard him in the hallway screaming (as he put it), or heard him enter the bathroom. Did he scream in the hallway, then decide to slink into the bathroom? Doesn't really make sense.

 

[Carol70]

Well I am sure the defense will question the earwitnesses as to why they did not call the cops.

Ultimately though that aspect is irrrelavent and may be part of what has become known in the USA (at least) as Kitty Genovese Syndrome.

See wiki e.g., in 1964 a woman was repeatedly stabbed for some 30-45 minutes, by an apartment complex IIRC in Queens, NYC. NY Times reported 38 people heard her cries for help and did not call the cops. (Later claims have decreased the # of witnesses.) The perp even drove away and came back for seconds. The poor young woman was also raped as she was dying.

In addition to KG Syndrome also known as "Bystander effect" or "defusion of responsibility." So maybe precisely because the sound seemed to emanate from far away that the witnesses so far found presumed others must have called the cops.

Ultimately though IMHO that these earwitnesses did not call the cops is basically irrelevant to what they heard.

I know the story well and the syndrome is quite common here. I have a colleague who travels to work via the trains from the townships, he was relieved of his bag and phone etc in rush hour on the station deck, thieves had him on his belly, knife pressed to his back while they rifled through his pants, not one person did a thing. Just carried on like they had seen nothing. Very disturbing.

I'm sure it would be very relevant to the defence as to why witnesses hear screaming and shouting for an hour and then a gunshot and don't call security!

 

[natsound]

By the way...

"Botha said one spent cartridge casing was found in a passageway leading to the bathroom that houses the toilet. Another three casings were found on the bathroom floor outside the toilet door. A 9mm pistol was found lying on the shower mat."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575#ixzz2LwWRvSJX

So with the casing found in the toilet, that makes five shots. (I don't understand "the passageway leading to the bathroom that houses the toilet". Is that a vent or something?)

 

[joe jones]

shorts and a vest top are what millions of women wear in bed, it is a version of pajamas just with shorts not long trousers,

I find nothing odd that she was wearing shorts and a vest top

 

[shane13]

I know the story well and the syndrome is quite common here. I have a colleague who travels to work via the trains from the townships, he was relieved of his bag and phone etc in rush hour on the station deck, thieves had him on his belly, knife pressed to his back while they rifled through his pants, not one person did a thing. Just carried on like they had seen nothing. Very disturbing.

I'm sure it would be very relevant to the defence as to why witnesses hear screaming and shouting for an hour and then a gunshot and don't call security![/QUOTE]

And I gave the likely response--"I presumed someone else already did." These witnesses can then be portrayed perhaps as not very caring of their fellow man and woman, but it in no way negates what they heard.

 

[Norwegian]

There is no evidence that she was unhappy with OP. Her tweets right before her death only further confirm this.

Rihanna and Chris Brown also looked happy right before their incident.

She could very well be unhappy or have been starting to think twice about the relationship without telling anyone. He is extremely high profile and it's easy to be blended. Also.. I doubt anyone would write nasty things about Valentines on Twitter or Face. Sosial media is made for sugarcoating, boasting and self-pr!

 

[SyraKelly]

Well I am sure the defense will question the earwitnesses as to why they did not call the cops.

Ultimately though that aspect is irrrelavent and may be part of what has become known in the USA (at least) as Kitty Genovese Syndrome.

See wiki e.g., in 1964 a woman was repeatedly stabbed for some 30-45 minutes, by an apartment complex IIRC in Queens, NYC. NY Times reported 38 people heard her cries for help and did not call the cops. (Later claims have decreased the # of witnesses.) The perp even drove away and came back for seconds. The poor young woman was also raped as she was dying.

In addition to KG Syndrome also known as "Bystander effect" or "defusion of responsibility." So maybe precisely because the sound seemed to emanate from far away that the witnesses so far found presumed others must have called the cops.

Ultimately though IMHO that these earwitnesses did not call the cops is basically irrelevant to what they heard.

Shane-I have never heard of this case-but Lord Have Mercy-38 people-just appalling!!:what:

 

[cityslick]

Rihanna and Chris Brown also looked happy right before their incident.

She could very well be unhappy or have been starting to think twice about the relationship without telling anyone. He is extremely high profile and it's easy to be blended. Also.. I doubt anyone would write nasty things about Valentines on Twitter or Face. Sosial media is made for sugarcoating, boasting and self-pr!

She bought a Valentines day present for him that does not lend itself to someone being unhappy.

 

[cityslick]

I know the story well and the syndrome is quite common here. I have a colleague who travels to work via the trains from the townships, he was relieved of his bag and phone etc in rush hour on the station deck, thieves had him on his belly, knife pressed to his back while they rifled through his pants, not one person did a thing. Just carried on like they had seen nothing. Very disturbing.

I'm sure it would be very relevant to the defence as to why witnesses hear screaming and shouting for an hour and then a gunshot and don't call security![/QUOTE]

And I gave the likely response--"I presumed someone else already did." These witnesses can then be portrayed perhaps as not very caring of their fellow man and woman, but it in no way negates what they heard.

It's negated IMO if the person hearing the screaming is over 1000 feet away. How does that person discern which house it's coming from to begin with?

 

[Norwegian]

She bought a Valentines day present for him that does not lend itself to someone being unhappy.

It's what couples DO.

I'm not saying she was super unhappy, not even unhappy. I'm just saying that she could have had second thoughts because she has seen a another side of him.

 

[21merc7]

It's negated IMO if the person hearing the screaming is over 1000 feet away. How does that person discern which house it's coming from to begin with?

That is a good point. If they were that far away, Botha couldn't make up his mind, 900 or 300?

A neighbor and I heard gunshots one night a couple of years ago. We only knew the general direction. We ran inside, she asked if we should call 911. I said yes! Can't shoot guns in the city and someone could be dead or about to be. Try telling 911 a few blocks radius and then realize you sound like you are crazy, but hope someone closer has called them to pinpoint. :banghead:

 

[cityslick]

It's what couples DO.

I'm not saying she was super unhappy, not even unhappy. I'm just saying that she could have had second thoughts because she has seen a another side of him.

And she could of been super happy with him and had thoughts long term about the relationship. I'm just going off of what her behavior was before her death since that's all we have to go on.

 

[Carol70]

By the way...

"Botha said one spent cartridge casing was found in a passageway leading to the bathroom that houses the toilet. Another three casings were found on the bathroom floor outside the toilet door. A 9mm pistol was found lying on the shower mat."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...-bail-hearing-article-1.1268575#ixzz2LwWRvSJX

So with the casing found in the toilet, that makes five shots. (I don't understand "the passageway leading to the bathroom that houses the toilet". Is that a vent or something?)

I wish we could find a transcript of Botha's testimony.
I imagine the casing in the passage way...if you look at reconstructions, there is a small passage way leading into the bathroom...he could have been standing at the entry to the bathroom when he fired the first shot. Guess we can only speculate until we actually see the evidence from ballistics.

 

[shane13]

Shane-I have never heard of this case-but Lord Have Mercy-38 people-just appalling!!:what:

Syra, yes shocking when it first happened. Now known to be commonplace. Ah it says you are in upstate NY, but maybe you are a youngin and so did not know this which is a somewat famous incident. I think it made headlines around the world at the time.

At least that perp was caught, buyt managed toescape for awhile and rape again. He is still in jail.

But did you notice one similarity with the OP case?

Both events happened circa 3 AM.

 

[shane13]

It's negated IMO if the person hearing the screaming is over 1000 feet away. How does that person discern which house it's coming from to begin with?

I doubt they claimed to know which house it came from. Another reason perhaps why they did not call the cops.

Bottom line is that since there were no other shootings there, the one event that did involve shooting is OP's home. And the timeline fits the murder well!

 

[21merc7]

I wish we could find a transcript of Botha's testimony.
I imagine the casing in the passage way...if you look at reconstructions, there is a small passage way leading into the bathroom...he could have been standing at the entry to the bathroom when he fired the first shot. Guess we can only speculate until we actually see the evidence from ballistics.

Not a transcript, but the posted play by play. Don't know what day this is on, so click around.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-day-two-live-coverage

 

[cityslick]

I doubt they claimed to know which house it came from. Another reason perhaps why they did not call the cops.

Bottom line is that since there were no other shootings there, the one event that did involve shooting is OP's home. And the timeline fits the murder well!

BBM

How do you know this? From that distance it could of came from any direction. It was not a rural area.

From that distance how do you know what they thought was a gunshot wasn't really but something else (firework, etc)?

 

[Carol70]

Syra, yes shocking when it first happened. Now known to be commonplace. Ah it says you are in upstate NY, but maybe you are a youngin and so did not know this which is a somewat famous incident. I think it made headlines around the world at the time.

At least that perp was caught, buyt managed toescape for awhile and rape again. He is still in jail.

But did you notice one similarity with the OP case?

Both events happened circa 3 AM.

Yep, I came across the story when I was reading another about a similar incident and the syndrome was referenced so I looked it up.

 

[shane13]

BBM

How do you know this? From that distance it could of came from any direction. It was not a rural area.

From that distance how do you know what they thought was a gunshot wasn't really but something else (firework, etc)?

Are you claiming there were other shootings there at circa 3 AM?
Fireworks at 3 AM in that upscale dwelling????

 

[Carol70]

I doubt they claimed to know which house it came from. Another reason perhaps why they did not call the cops.

Bottom line is that since there were no other shootings there, the one event that did involve shooting is OP's home. And the timeline fits the murder well!

But also, loud non stop talking...which sounded like fighting?
Far cry from screaming and shouting! IMO.