General Discussion Thread #4

[shane13]

http://ewn.co.za/2013/08/20/State-seeking-life-sentence-for-Oscar

My last post above--citing news24.com-- had this as its source: "screams were heard from Pistorius’s house before and after several gunshots rang out."

Again to my knowledge this is the first time we are hearing about Reeva screaming after likely first being shot.

This certainly implies the first hit was non-fatal.

She likely could have been saved if Oscar reported his act likely done in a rage. But if Pros timeline is correct, premeditated murder and self-preservation were all he cared about after the first shot.

 

[shane13]

GINA MYERS WRITES HER A FINAL E-MAIL
Marie Claire Aug 19


http://www.marieclairvoyant.com/ent...st-friend-gina-myers-writes-her-a-final-email

Thank you MS so much for posting!
That was gut wrenching to read. But everyone should, to see what a wonderful, close, supportive friendship Gina and Reeva had.

Hard to describe...

Reminded me of the book "Z", from which Costa-Gavros made the great movie "Z".

The book just describes how special the assassinated man was throughout. Was also gut wrenching.

 

[Coldpizza]

Hi all, I see alot of names being tossed about. Just make sure those people have been named in either the Indictment or MSM in relation to this case. And as a general rule of thumb try to use initials please.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Reevas-parents-bemoan-media-20130823

Reeva's parents bemoan media
The couple said the reports had caused them much frustration and heartache. They asked the media not to contact them directly

The Steenkamps on Friday asked that Reeva's friends and acquaintances also act in a restrained and dignified manner. It is the least that she deserves.

We, as the parents of Reeva, are best suited to tell Reeva's story," they said.

I could not understand what is meant here exactly and I'm confused...Is that a kind of warning to some of Reeva's friends? Every single friend and acquintance who will contribute to get the truth and justice for Reeva should be there as well as the parents of course..

 

[natsound]

I believe it is the other way around because "jumpy OP" :floorlaugh: NOT pulled the trigger on the two ocasion on which I have referred.

You forget one "bang" - there were four shots, sadly :candle: [smart-aleck modus off]

His jumpy manner lends creedence to the notion that he jumped the gun (pardon the pun) on Feburary 14. "He was a paranoid guy. A ticking time bomb, due to all the violence in SA. This time, he went all the way," his defense will say. :stormingmad:

 

[Interested Bystander]

His jumpy manner lends creedence to the notion that he jumped the gun (pardon the pun) on Feburary 14. "He was a paranoid guy. A ticking time bomb, due to all the violence in SA. This time, he went all the way," his defense will say. :stormingmad:

What was different here that made him actually shoot 4 bullets (supposedly with a gap between the first and 2nd, 3rd, 4th)? He didn't shoot on the other two occasions, he lives on a very safe estate with no history that I can find of robberies, let alone armed robberies. Why did he not challenge whomever he thought was in the toilet cubicle, saying he was armed? I don't think he was frightened, stumps or not. He is known to be able to run on his stumps. I will look out the link and post.

How come, if he was terrified, he didn't leave the bedroom and immediately move downstairs and out of the house, ensuring he had taken Reeva with him? What would you have done if you were terrified and in the same situation. I know I would have left the building and called the police immediately. It just doesn't stack up.

"Pistorius went down in school folklore when, during a rugby match, a player from the opposite team tackled him. ‘His legs came off in the boy’s arms,’ said Shroeder. ‘But he carried on running over the line, I think the other kid still has nightmares."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-insomnia-visits-gun-range.html#ixzz2cobumOaQ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[Feynman]

quote exerpted for brevity

What was different here that made him actually shoot 4 bullets (supposedly with a gap between the first and 2nd, 3rd, 4th)? He didn't shoot on the other two occasions, he lives on a very safe estate with no history that I can find of robberies, let alone armed robberies.

I believe there were two or three previous breakins at Silver Lakes; at least one was an inside job. This is from memory only. Anyone else? I'll look for a link.

 

[Pisto_lius]

PRESS RELEASE BY BARRY & JUNE STEENKAMP

http://www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/130823Steenkamp.pdf
.
.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Reeva ‘cowered’ behind toilet door

18 August 2013

The police's case docket was handed to Pistorius' lawyers this week. This was confirmed by his attorney, Brian Webber.

Contained in the docket is a postmortem report revealing the extent of Steenkamp’s injuries and forensic bloodstain pattern analysis.

City Press was reliably told that the analysis is consistent with Steenkamp being in a crouching position when she was shot in the head, hip and arm.

This confirms the theory of former investigating officer Hilton Botha, published by Vanity Fair in June.

The postmortem report reveals that Steenkamp's skull was “crushed” by the impact of the bullets from Pistorius' 9mm Parabellum pistol.

Because of her extensive head wounds, the police initially considered that the athlete may have assaulted Steenkamp with his cricket bat, which was found bloodied on the crime scene.

But results from the forensic laboratory analysis have now confirmed that the damage was caused by the bullets’ impact from a short distance.

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/reeva-cowered-behind-toilet-door/

.
.

 

[Interested Bystander]

quote exerpted for brevity

I believe there were two or three previous breakins at Silver Lakes; at least one was an inside job. This is from memory only. Anyone else? I'll look for a link.

He lived on the Silver Woods Estate not Silver Lakes though I confess I don't know anything about the Silver Lakes security. I imagine it would have been fairly good.

 

[shane13]

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Reevas-parents-bemoan-media-20130823

Reeva's parents bemoan media
The couple said the reports had caused them much frustration and heartache. They asked the media not to contact them directly

The Steenkamps on Friday asked that Reeva's friends and acquaintances also act in a restrained and dignified manner. It is the least that she deserves.

We, as the parents of Reeva, are best suited to tell Reeva's story," they said.

I could not understand what is meant here exactly and I'm confused...Is that a kind of warning to some of Reeva's friends? Every single friend and acquintance who will contribute to get the truth and justice for Reeva should be there as well as the parents of course..

I'm with you here, MS.

The press reelase by the Steenkamps is a bit puzzling.

Asking for the silence or the censoring of what Reeva's friends say should not happen in a supposedly free society. As your post of what Gina recently wrote shows, there was a very close, loving friendship there, and Reeva's memory is honored by whst she wrote. Likewise with most of what Reeva's friends have said. Even those who spoke with anger--is that not deserved?

But we have to remember that the Steenkamps PR was sent through their attorneys' office to the media.

Indeed it brings up what is sorely lacking in that PR, and what is probably the media's #1 query now: what is happening with the lawsuit against OP. Is there a lawsuit, and if so what stage is it in?

Elsewhere the media says that the 2 sets of attorneys are negotiating.
So we can speculate that this may be the reason the the parent's attorneys might want Reeva's friends to be quiet at this stage? MOO

So the last paragraph IMO may be what is going on.
What do you think, MS?

 

[shane13]

I noticed some names of his amours:

Samantha Taylor
Jenna Edkins
Vicky Miles
Chanelle Du Plessis
Melissa Rom
Anastassia Khozissova
Vanessa Haywood

Nothing of this was really serious and constantly the media reported about his changing affairs. This couldn't be kept hidden from her.

]

Snipped for brevity.


BBM: On the contrary, Oscar's relationship with Vicky Miles was quite serious.

According to Oscar's book, Blade Runner, [read here], the relationship lasted nearly 5 years, and she was his "first true love."

Furthermore, in 2005, after a row he had with her on the phone, he drove off at 3 AM for the 400 KM journey to her home. He fell asleep at the wheel, 1/2 way there, and crashed into a guardrail--totaling the car and nearly dying from injuries.

He has related that he always thought she would be the one for him for life, and still thinks about her. And again the relationship lasted for nearly 5 years.

Even the relationship with Sam Taylor lasted for 18 months, and therefore was serious too.

But the relationship with Vicky Milles was quite serious. She finally had enough and ended it, and won't talk to him since she ended it.

 

[Pisto_lius]

Some very interesting information on the work of forensic specialists

The Oscar Pistorius case was back in the Pretoria Magistrate’s Court on Monday (August 19 2013) – and experts predict forensic evidence will play a major part. Mandy Wiener meets the pathologists, forensic psychologists and crime scene investigators who solve the country’s most heinous crimes.

The trajectory of the bullet as it tears through skin and flesh. The detailed patterns of the congealed blood spattered across the scene. Fingerprints. Casings. Organ temperature. Rigor mortis. All clues, carefully scrutinised by forensic specialists as they piece together the puzzle of each crime they investigate.

Cobus [.....] says the murder trial of Paralympic star Oscar Pistorius is also likely to come down to forensic work.

"It’s going to play a vital role. We’ll see the full case unfold when the trial starts. The forensic aspect is of cardinal importance. How many shots went through the door? What is the angle of those shots? Where did the cartridge cases land? What other blood spatter is there in the bathroom? The drip trails and cast-off patterns will tell a story – has somebody bleeding been carried? All of that will eventually place weight on one side and then there will be a version from the accused."

Elmarie is part of the police team investigating the case and has visited the scene of the crime but isn’t allowed to talk about it at all. Johan agrees the forensics will be absolutely crucial.

"There are lots of questions surrounding the number of shots fired, and whether there was an intermediate target like the bathroom door. There are facts in the case that have not been for public consumption, which the public will find out when the court case takes place."


Read more: http://www.citypress.co.za/features/i-see-dead-people/

 

[Pisto_lius]

One of the early reports [17 Feb] about what happened but as it seems appallingly precisely:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/the-meteoric-rise-and-fall-of-a-hero-1.1471757#.Uhffm9K-2So


- At around 8pm on Wednesday unmistakeable sounds of a
domestic argument.

- Allegations are that the on-and-off noise of an apparently protracted argument would go on for hours until neighbours finally called security and the police about 1am.

- About seven hours after the first sounds of a fight were heard, there were four shots, heard clearly by the neighbours, and Steenkamp lay dead.

- The 29-year-old, who had been Pistorius's girlfriend for only about three months, is said to have been hit in the head, chest, hand and pelvic area.

 

[whiterum]

Reeva ‘cowered’ behind toilet door

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/reev...d-toilet-door/

So HB's testimony appears to be correct and the defence incorrect. HB said OP had fired shots from a distance of around 5ft from inside the bathroom and not from the bathroom entrance as the defence was trying to suggest, trying to get HB to concede on that point. When the defence asked HB the question, as to why then a casing would be found near the bathroom entrance. HB suggests that he moved position into the bathroom in front of the basins. So even in this scenario if the first bullet was fired from the bathroom entrance, no doubt he would have heard RS cry out in pain, scream in fright, before he stepped into a closer firing position nearer to the toilet door.

Poor RS , what a horrible violent death for such a gentle, caring young woman.

 

[kittychi]

One of the early reports [17 Feb] about what happened but as it seems appallingly precisely:

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/the-meteoric-rise-and-fall-of-a-hero-1.1471757#.Uhffm9K-2So


- At around 8pm on Wednesday unmistakeable sounds of a
domestic argument.

- Allegations are that the on-and-off noise of an apparently protracted argument would go on for hours until neighbours finally called security and the police about 1am.

- About seven hours after the first sounds of a fight were heard, there were four shots, heard clearly by the neighbours, and Steenkamp lay dead.

- The 29-year-old, who had been Pistorius's girlfriend for only about three months, is said to have been hit in the head, chest, hand and pelvic area.

I am so curious about the role of alcohol because of the way things escalated to this very tragic event.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I'm with you here, MS.

The press reelase by the Steenkamps is a bit puzzling.

Asking for the silence or the censoring of what Reeva's friends say should not happen in a supposedly free society. As your post of what Gina recently wrote shows, there was a very close, loving friendship there, and Reeva's memory is honored by whst she wrote. Likewise with most of what Reeva's friends have said. Even those who spoke with anger--is that not deserved?

But we have to remember that the Steenkamps PR was sent through their attorneys' office to the media.

Indeed it brings up what is sorely lacking in that PR, and what is probably the media's #1 query now: what is happening with the lawsuit against OP. Is there a lawsuit, and if so what stage is it in?

Elsewhere the media says that the 2 sets of attorneys are negotiating.
So we can speculate that this may be the reason the the parent's attorneys might want Reeva's friends to be quiet at this stage? MOO

So the last paragraph IMO may be what is going on.
What do you think, MS?

Yes it's been said in the media that an out of court compensation deal negotaitons has been going on with OP's lawyers who want the matter to be settled before the trial. The Steenkamp's family spokesman uncle's declaration on 19 th August and this press release suggest me those were the demands of the DT and a part of the bargain as the benefiting party from Reeva's friends being silent until the trial will be OP ..

JMO.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

How likely is it that Pistorius can clear his name?

These are the questions to consider:

1. Pistorius' defence will depend on a number of psychological and forensic factors:

2. Does Pistorius have any hope of avoiding a criminal conviction for either murder or culpable homicide?

3. If the court accepts the subjective, honest belief that he alleges that he thought he was under attack, could he escape liability on murder on an intention defence - that he lacked the criminal intent to murder somebody?

4. If the court accepts that he acted according to the standards of the ordinary reasonable disabled person, and was therefore not negligent, then could he escape liability?

5. Can Pistorius convince the High Court that his actions needed to be judged as those of a disabled person who had a far greater sense of vulnerability and fear of being attacked?

6. Will the State's witnesses who heard a woman scream before they heard the sound of Pistorius’ gun firing add proof to the State's case?

7. Will the State be able to discredit or discount Pistorius' evidence with solid objective forensic evidence?

8. Is the police’s handling of that forensic evidence really already under fire or not? For example,
a) Botha walked through the area without foot coverings
b) The shattered door that Pistorius fired through was removed before the Defence experts were able to examine it
c) Defence experts discovered a bullet cartridge in the toilet - which the police had failed to pick up.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/can-oscar-pistorius-clear-his-name

5. I think the defence team will establish its argument upon OP's disability
and thus greater sense of vulnerability and fear as you said however his heroically taking out his gun and attacking towards a supposed threat does not even reflect the actions of an abled man in that situation let alone a disabled man in pitch darkness.. So Prosecution might have the chance of decaying their argument imo.

 

[Lemon Tree]

I've been following this thread with great interest over the past months. Thank you for you thought-provoking and interesting observations and analysis. You have provided much food for thought. Here is my first contribution...

http://www.citypress.co.za/news/reev...d-toilet-door/ Briefly snipped for brevity:

So HB's testimony appears to be correct and the defence incorrect. HB said OP had fired shots from a distance of around 5ft from inside the bathroom and not from the bathroom entrance as the defence was trying to suggest, trying to get HB to concede on that point. When the defence asked HB the question, as to why then a casing would be found near the bathroom entrance. HB suggests that he moved position into the bathroom in front of the basins. So if the first bullet was fired from the bathroom entrance no doubt he would have heard RS cry out in pain, scream in fright, before he stepped into a closer firing position nearer to the toilet. ...

This has worried me for some time now: How could OP have fired so accurately, hitting RS* three times through a closed door in the dark, without knowing where, in the toilet, she* was?

OP couldn't have known exactly where RS* was if, according to OP, she* didn't make any noise. Yet three out of four shots through the door hit RS* accurately enough to kill her*.

IMO, OP heard RS* in the toilet, knew it was her*, knew exactly where she* was in the toilet and pre-meditatively shot and killed her*. Did OP intend to kill RS* with his level of accuracy? If so, then murder is at least the correct charge, not culpable hoicide.

* = or "the intruder", if you believe OP's BH Affidavit

A case of too accurate shooting through a closed door in the dark?

 

[whiterum]

I've been following this thread with great interest over the past months. Thank you for you thought-provoking and interesting observations and analysis. You have provided much food for thought. Here is my first contribution...



This has worried me for some time now: How could OP have fired so accurately, hitting RS* three times through a closed door in the dark, without knowing where, in the toilet, she* was?

OP couldn't have known exactly where RS* was if, according to OP, she* didn't make any noise. Yet three out of four shots through the door hit RS* accurately enough to kill her*.

IMO, OP heard RS* in the toilet, knew it was her*, knew exactly where she* was in the toilet and pre-meditatively shot and killed her*. Did OP intend to kill RS* with his level of accuracy? If so, then murder is at least the correct charge, not culpable hoicide.

* = or "the intruder", if you believe OP's BH Affidavit

A case of too accurate shooting through a closed door in the dark?

Excellent post and totally agree. Welcome Lemon Tree.