General Discussion Thread No. 17

[Texana]

Thanks for the photos, Thoughtfox.

What a beautiful place but certainly looks very uninhabited. How far was it again in drive time, I wonder, the news article says it was about 15 miles in distance.

Looks like the McCanns should perhaps not be so "buoyed" by the appointment of the new police chief:

SEARCH NEWS / SHOWBIZfor:

http://www.dailyexpress.co.uk/posts/view/22074

"Under the orders of Paulo Rebelo, who now heads the investigation, search teams will also comb a three-mile stretch of beaches and rugged coastline between Praia da Luz and Burgau.

And mobile phone trackers will be brought in to pinpoint the movements of Madeleine’s parents, Kate and Gerry, and their friends in the days after she vanished. "


They will concentrate on the places visited by the McCanns after the couple hired a silver Renault Scenic in which Madeleine’s DNA was allegedly found. The technicians use satellite technology to trace the exact location of every call, down to a few feet. "

 

[Trino]

It seems I keep changing my mind daily about the McCanns, but Portuguese LE seem focused, and IM DAILY O they appear to have enough info to keep their focus on the McCanns. It's good that they are doing more searching, even if it could be a recovery operation.

I try to visualize what I would initially do if one of my children went missing under similar circumstances. Before racing back to the restaurant, I think I would first check the bathroom, call out Madeline's name (probably arousing neighbors), do a mini-search around the area, and probably awaken the twins. What Kate did/didn't do seems so suspect from the beginning.

It's also just so suspect for an abductor to not take the twin girl over Madeline.

Do you suppose, assuming they're not involved, that any of the Tapas 9 have just a speck of questions about the McCanns?

 

[hcc2007]

Take a look at these pictures, and then please try to convince me that there's a PRAYER of finding Madeleine ...

Surrounding area (Ocean Club dead center, marked with a pin)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd303/heyjafreyja/OceanClubHighAltitude.jpg

Bravura Reservoir (top center) and Ocean Club (bottom center):
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd303/heyjafreyja/OceanClubAndBravuraReservoir.jpg

Have also posted some close-ups and one really-far-out over in the "Pictures" thread.

 

[ThoughtFox]

A poster named "Vengeance" on the Times Mirror forum says there might be a search tomorrow in Portimao:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21628

I do comms work at the US embassy in Lisbon so know a few people, and so it can be pretty interesting. Lots of stuff and gossip about this case.

Just heard a piece you may find interesting. The Policia Judiciaria have had a tip off from a witness and this ties in with the mobile phone stuff and are going to be doing some searches in a town in Portugal.

Sounds pretty definite. They have an address and it involves the McCanns. All I can say at the moment. keep you posted if I hear anything else.

and

I am American and on a three year posting.

The town in not far from PDL - its called Portimao. My information is they are going to search it tomorrow. Big operation.

It will be interesting to see if that is true.

 

[Rino]

A poster named "Vengeance" on the Times Mirror forum says there might be a search tomorrow in Portimao:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21628



and



It will be interesting to see if that is true.

It seems they've come to the conclusion Vengeance is a hoax who thinks he's pretty funny.....

From the same site another insight that I have overlooked http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21663

They began a series of tacky publicity stunts, selling ribbons, wrist bands and T-shirts from the online ‘Madeleine Store’ and planned a balloon launch, two weeks in advance, to mark the 50th day of her abduction. How did they know she would still be missing? ....

 

[hcc2007]

It seems they've come to the conclusion Vengeance is a hoax who thinks he's pretty funny.....

What Vengeance says is consistent with the recent reports about searching in areas from which cell phone call were made between McCanns and friends.

But I'll bet you they are grasping at straws. Just like searching the lake. Man, that's a big lake, and just look at all the vast empty expanses between Luz and the Lake, and between Luz and the Lake and Portimao. Hundreds, maybe thousands of square miles in which to bury a very small body? Hopeless!

And the cell phone calls? Of course the friends would be calling each other. If it were my missing daughter and I had friends helping me search for her, I'd be on the phone to them a lot.

I think PJ is trying to show they've left no stone unturned ... to borrow the McCanns' phrase. They want this #!@%ing case to go away, and the U.K. off their backs and McCanns' lawyers off their backs.

 

[Zelda]

Take a look at these pictures, and then please try to convince me that there's a PRAYER of finding Madeleine ...

Surrounding area (Ocean Club dead center, marked with a pin)
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd303/heyjafreyja/OceanClubHighAltitude.jpg

Bravura Reservoir (top center) and Ocean Club (bottom center):
http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd303/heyjafreyja/OceanClubAndBravuraReservoir.jpg

Have also posted some close-ups and one really-far-out over in the "Pictures" thread.

Sounds more and more like detective work done for Natalee. And it will probably end up like the search for Natalee--no body and no one charged with murder.

 

[colomom]

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/18171/MADDIE-COPS-TOLD-TO-SEARCH-UNDER-EVERY-ROCK/

MADDIE COPS TOLD TO SEARCH UNDER EVERY ROCK


Well, it is about time!

 

[Barnaby]

The thing that noone is commenting on is that as far as I know the McCanns rented the car that O'Brien had during their holiday. Everyone is asking how could they move a body in the car after so many days it would be well decomposing but has anyone considered the possibility that the cadaver scent was already in the car from when O'Brien had it & possibly transported the body in it?

 

[AfterMidnight]

The thing that noone is commenting on is that as far as I know the McCanns rented the car that O'Brien had during their holiday. Everyone is asking how could they move a body in the car after so many days it would be well decomposing but has anyone considered the possibility that the cadaver scent was already in the car from when O'Brien had it & possibly transported the body in it?

I've wondered about that for a long time. Do you have a link to O'Brien having the car during that time? I think this may be very important.

 

[Barnaby]

I've wondered about that for a long time. Do you have a link to O'Brien having the car during that time? I think this may be very important.

Sorry I don't, I read this a while back if I find it again I will post it.

 

[Bob&Bob]

I think that was just a rumor that he had the car first.

 

[CaliKid]

It seems they've come to the conclusion Vengeance is a hoax who thinks he's pretty funny.....

From the same site another insight that I have overlooked http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21663

That seems to be a big problem with the Mirror forums- a troll makes a bogus thread just to fill up the forum with nonsense.

As far as the car goes, we don't know for sure that O'Brien rented it,

 

[Barnaby]

.....

From the same site another insight that I have overlooked http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21663

I am posting the content of that article Rino, I think it is a wonderful post:

http://forums.mirror.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=21663&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Three year-old Madeleine McCann and her two year-old twin siblings, were left alone in a ground floor holiday apartment at the Ocean Club in the Algarve every night while their parents, Kate and Gerry dined at a Tapas Bar with seven friends, all medical practitioners. The McCann’s believe this was responsible parenting and the Social Services and media agree that at worst they were naive. On Thursday May 3rd Madeleine vanished from her bed without trace and her parents raised the alarm, claiming she had been kidnapped, or “taken” as they prefer to say. There is no credible evidence of this and the twins sleeping nearby, did not wake during the ensuing commotion.

However, I have suspected the parents involvement from day one, for the simple reason that on the day following Madeleine’s disappearance, when they should have been back at the hotel, in pieces, being comforted by friends and waiting for the phone to ring, (like normal folk) Gerry chose to act as media spokesman, dispensing with intermediaries, such as a liaison officer or lawyer. Instead of speaking from the heart, he read from a script and didn’t choke-up or break down; in fact, I have yet to see this “devoted father” shed a real tear.

His wife said nothing, no appeal, no begging or pleading for the kidnapper to return her daughter, not a word. From then on, I began scrutinising their behaviour and demeanour and I bet the Polícia Judiciária did too. Chief inspector Oligeario Sousa went along with the abduction theory to exhaust this possibility, but also to avoid alerting the McCann’s to the fact they were under surveillance. The PJ are not as incompetent as ‘Team McCann’ would have us believe, they were quietly gathering evidence and building their case.

With enough rope to hang themselves, the McCann’s embarked on a tour in Sir Philip Green’s private jet, meeting everyone from Alberto Gonzales to the Pope. What a rare privilege! But not once in their many interviews did they speak loving or comforting words directly to their daughter through the media, regardless of whether she may hear it... Why, because they knew she never would? Apparently the FBI regards this as an indication of guilt. They both discussed the situation in a nonchalant and matter-of-fact manner.

At one point Gerry stated, “We have grieved” which struck me as odd, since you usually grieve for the dead, whereas for a missing child, you continue to worry yourself sick. Nonetheless, they retained their composure and appeared relaxed, blogging about jogging and enjoying “mince and tatties” with the family, nothing about Madeleine though! The British media fawned over the couple, portraying them as saints who couldn’t possibly be guilty, but nobody really knows their true character or what goes on behind closed doors.

One week after the disappearance, they launched a ‘fighting fund’ to find Madeleine, which has accrued a total of £1,091,108.67 donated by genuine well-wishers and rich celebrities. They began a series of tacky publicity stunts, selling ribbons, wrist bands and T-shirts from the online ‘Madeleine Store’ and planned a balloon launch, two weeks in advance, to mark the 50th day of her abduction. How did they know she would still be missing?

There were discrepancies in their version of events. They claimed the shutter was forced, but when that was disputed, they said the door was not locked. Dr. O’Brien left the Tapas Bar for half an hour, supposedly to attend to his own daughter who was vomiting. He then left the sick infant to return to the restaurant. Another negligent parent, or was he attending to something else? The McCann’s friends implicated Robert Murat, by placing him at the scene and Jane Tanner was the only one to see a man carrying a child in a blanket towards the beach. However, the Tapas 9 drank about eight bottles of red and four bottles of white wine. I’m surprised they could see anything! Tanner changed her story four months later, claiming the child was wearing pink pyjamas and the man was heading towards Murat’s house.

When asked about the first thing that crossed their minds when they came back to the room from dinner and realized that Madeleine wasn't there, Kate replied, “I knew straight away she'd been taken” she continued, “well, put it this way: I mean, she hadn't walked out of the apartment.” Gerry said, “When I got there and Kate told me, and when I looked at the scene as well, I had absolutely no doubt.” But Ocean Club spokesman Alex Woolfall said, “They gave no indication that they thought she had been snatched, let alone by a paedophile. Their early assumption was that she had wandered off and had an accident or been taken in by a well-meaning stranger.” So, which was it?

Gerry and a friend were spotted near the Nossa Senhora da Luz chapel on the evening Maddy disappeared. This is the last place police would look for a body and Father Jose Manuel Pacheco, who gave the parents keys to this church was reprimanded and replaced, two days after the “abduction.” I don’t suppose there is much use taking the cadaver dogs to the cemetery, they would go berserk! When it was revealed these dogs had detected the scent of a corpse on Kate’s Bible and the hire car, Philomena McCann exclaimed sarcastically, “What, dogs can talk now?” Er...yes! Not in so many words but by reacting, like Keela the world renowned Springer Spaniel was trained to do.

Only when they became Arguidos, did they begin to describe their predicament with expressions like, “unbearable anguish, extreme distress, pain and turmoil and an unending nightmare...” It’s a pity they didn’t experience these emotions after their daughter vanished. The McCann’s said they were “happy” to assist police if it brought progress to the investigation, yet they refused to answer forty questions. So much for their catch phrase: ‘Leaving No Stone Unturned.’ Then, despite vowing to stay in Portugal, they scurried back home in the VIP lounge of Easyjet!

The McCann’s behaved like the Ramsey’s after Jon Benet’s murder, hogging the limelight, hiding in plain sight.... and like the Ramsey’s, they may well get off Scot free! They have friends in very high places, not least Gordon Brown and his wife Sarah Macaulay whose colleague Julia Hobsbawm is the founder and chief executive of Editorial Intelligence, which is responsible for spinning the ‘Immaculate McCann’ fairy stories, she is also an associate of Sir Peter Green. Clarence Mitchell, director of the Government's Media Monitoring Unit, became their spokesman, paid for by an anonymous billionaire benefactor. Hans Christian Anderson was not available!

Gerry hoped to use the fighting fund for their defence against killing her, saying, “It’s a huge disaster, we have this enormous fund and can’t use it for legal fees because we are suspects.” Wouldn’t they rather it was used for its purpose, to find Madeleine? But Sir Richard Branson and Everest Magnate, Brian Kennedy stepped in to cover the exorbitant cost of extradition lawyer Michael Caplan QC who charges £700 per day and successfully defended mass-murderer General Pinochet. With so many Knights of the Empire pulling strings for them, I can’t see a trial materialising, far less a conviction, but “Bring it on!” says Gerry, with four top lawyers waiting in the wings.

Team McCann will claim they cannot receive a fair trial due to the intense publicity, (which they generated) and when that won’t wash, unlike Maddy’s favourite toy ‘Cuddle-Cat’ which Kate uses as a prop, they will insist they are being framed. When forensics refutes that, their defence will depend on the forensic evidence being made inadmissible, due to a bungled preliminary investigation. Sir Alec Jeffreys, the father of DNA fingerprinting from the University of Leicester is prepared to testify in court that his discovery is not worth a jot. In which case everyone who has been acquitted or convicted on DNA evidence should have their cases reopened.

If evidence was planted by the perpetrator, as Kate insists, then we must assume he/she was still lurking around Praia da Luz when their car was hired, but Philomena said on May 12th, "We don't believe that she is in Portugal anymore and need to get her picture and the story across Europe as quickly as possible." They believed Madeleine could be as far away as Argentina! So again, which is it? If police planted cadaver secretions, then they must have had access to the corpse, but toxicology tests on hair or body fluids would determine if the child was drugged, which could be the most damning evidence of all.

When asked during an interview if they medicated their daughter, they both smiled. Gerry laughed nervously, averted his gaze, looking downwards and rubbed his ear. This is text book body language of a liar. Kate blinks excessively; often closing her eyes completely and keeps an object between herself and the questioner, the ever present pink ‘Cuddle-Cat.’ When asked awkward questions in a Spanish interview, Gerry stormed out! It doesn’t get more evasive than that.

Caring for three toddlers, all less than three years of age is incredibly stressful and before she became a suspect Kate admitted that after the twins were born Madeleine “would run up and down screaming in the background, shouting for my attention.” I could almost sympathise with Kate (an anaesthetist) if she sedated them, but what is unforgivable is if they disposed of the body without a Christian burial while professing to be devout Catholics. Maybe that’s why they got Ratzinger to personally bless Maddy’s picture.

Gerry has suggested the child was snatched to order by a paedophile ring, but Kate said, "Madeleine is such a sociable child, so funny and engaging. She has a lot of personality. I bet she's giving whoever she's with her tuppence worth.” Of the many crass statements this couple have made, this is the most shocking and needs no further comment from me. Their recent outburst, “Find the body and prove we killed her” sounds like a taunt! I believe they concocted the abduction scenario because there was too much at stake, namely their careers, which would have brought an end to their affluent lifestyle.

If the McCann’s are guilty the implications are monumental. If their child was killed by accident, or otherwise, they covered up a serious crime and unlawfully disposed of the body. They deliberately tried to frame an innocent man, Robert Murat who said, “This has ruined my life and made life very difficult for my family here and in Britain.” Murat insisted, “I've been made a scapegoat for something I did not do.” He is now broke! A Russian who was also wronged, Sergey Malinka said, “I've invested seven years of my life in this country trying to succeed, and suddenly in one hour it's all fallen apart.”

The McCann’s extorted vast sums of money which they knew would never be used to find Madeleine, but was intended for their own expenses. They roped young children into raising cash and collecting donations. Football, rugby and cricket teams assisted in their fraudulent publicity campaign. They knowingly duped millions of concerned people. This deceitful couple betrayed their extended family and their daughter’s twin siblings. Their actions are cowardly and contemptible.

They insulted the integrity of Portuguese authorities and wasted valuable police time and resources. They allowed a bewildered Berber family to be harassed by the press because their daughter resembled Madeleine and smeared Moroccan Muslims. They used and abused their child’s name to evade the law and escape justice. They tried to engender sympathy for themselves, when it was their own daughter who was the victim. They and their friends have shamed their profession. Who will trust doctors again? Still, Madeleine may yet turn up in the home of some crazy kidnapper, I doubt it, but here’s hoping...

 

[Texana]

Thanks, Barnaby, there are a lot of good points made in that.

 

[Barnaby]

Thanks, Barnaby, there are a lot of good points made in that.

Welcome Texana, I think it is a wonderful article!

 

[Dr. Creepin]

Thanks for posting my article.

I am 'Velma' (another of my pseudonyms) and this is an update of 'The Case, So Far... which I already posted on Websleuths. But I called Sir Philip Green, Peter Green, so I must apologise to the guitarist from Fleetwood Mac!

 

[ThoughtFox]

Thanks for posting my article.

I am 'Velma' (another of my pseudonyms) and this is an update of 'The Case, So Far... which I already posted on Websleuths. But I called Sir Philip Green, Peter Green, so I must apologise to the guitarist from Fleetwood Mac!

Well it was an awesome piece of writing and I agree with nearly every point you made! Thanks!

I especially like this point about a statement they made:

Gerry has suggested the child was snatched to order by a paedophile ring, but Kate said, "Madeleine is such a sociable child, so funny and engaging. She has a lot of personality. I bet she's giving whoever she's with her tuppence worth.” Of the many crass statements this couple have made, this is the most shocking and needs no further comment from me.

I find that shocking, too. I have heard other parents with missing children talk about their child as a "fighter," but never in the same sentence as "funny and engaging." I mean, they are talking about pedophiles and what they might do to Maddie! It's strange.

And I came across another weird statement in an interview that was shown on CBS news. I can't find the actual video, or it wasn't there the last time I checked YouTube:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/05/earlyshow/main3334438.shtml

Madeleine is "pretty," Kate said. " ... She's very sociable, very engaging. She's bright and funny. She does have a sense of danger there."

"Mm-hmm," Gerry agreed.

"Even though she's very young," Kate continued. "She does have a sense of danger."

"We're clearly biased," Gerry admitted, "but Madeleine is as close to the perfect child as you could get, you know, for someone who is so young, less than four when she was taken. She really is amazing. Nothing like this has ever happened -- and I mean, going with anyone she didn't know, for example."

:waitasec: What did Kate mean by that? Did she mean that Maddie was friendly but would have felt a sense of danger if someone had taken her? Or does she mean that Maddie liked dangerous things, such as climbing up high and possibly falling or falling down the stairs? I can't figure out which way to take that remark, and Gerry's "mm-hmm" almost sounds as if he isn't sure what the heck Kate is talking about.

Then Gerry says "nothing like this has ever happened" but interrupts himself, as if he is saying too much. Did he mean that when they sedated them before nothing ever happened? Or what?

There's alot of sub-text going on in what they say - I can't quite follow them from one thought to another.

 

[Kermode Bear]

Quote: What did Kate mean by that? Did she mean that Maddie was friendly but would have felt a sense of danger if someone had taken her? Or does she mean that Maddie liked dangerous things, such as climbing up high and possibly falling or falling down the stairs? I can't figure out which way to take that remark, and Gerry's "mm-hmm" almost sounds as if he isn't sure what the heck Kate is talking about.

Then Gerry says "nothing like this has ever happened" but interrupts himself, as if he is saying too much. Did he mean that when they sedated them before nothing ever happened? Or what?

There's alot of sub-text going on in what they say - I can't quite follow them from one thought to another.[/QUOTE]

'Kinda reminds me of "Scott-Speak".

 

[CaliKid]

Thoughtfox, I think Kate and Gerry's subconscious speaks volumes when they let it.

Thanks for posting my article.

I am 'Velma' (another of my pseudonyms) and this is an update of 'The Case, So Far... which I already posted on Websleuths. But I called Sir Philip Green, Peter Green, so I must apologise to the guitarist from Fleetwood Mac!

Very good writing, and you covered every point.