George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 1

[LadyL]

I find it significant that Chauvin has not even the one person allowed showing up to court for him. No one. Not a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an old partner. No one.

how do you know that? I'm not watching the trial so maybe it's obvious to those who are but how do you know not one person in the crowd is there for him?

 

[jillybean51]

Was the official cause of death ever released by the ME?

 

[In vino veritas]

Did the State present evidence showing that every time a police officer has used the knee to neck restraint the suspect died?

I would think, if there is strong evidence that shows that prior use of that restraint typically does NOT result in death, the defense will most definitely be presenting it.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

This is an excellent question. I have wondered the same. However with the testimony about difficulty breathing due to stretched chest muscles and why they should not be in the prone position while cuffed will be included.

The training manual on May 25, 2020 also advises officers to place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia after the suspect is in handcuffs.

I'm now seeing is the training manual on May 25, 2020 states, a neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

IF that's the case does that leave us with negligence for not putting GF in the recovery position or rendering him aid?

 

[In vino veritas]

This is an excellent question. I have wondered the same. However with the testimony about difficulty breathing due to stretched chest muscles and why they should not be in the prone position while cuffed will be included.

I have a bit of a problem with that testimony. I typically clasp my hands behind my back and raise me arms up to get a good stretch. I find that opens my airway.
After hearing that testimony, I tried keeping my hands behind my back as if I was in handcuffs. I did not find it to impede my breathing. I know that’s not very scientific.... but perhaps that will be addressed by the defense.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

So if, in fact, the knee on the side of the neck is non- deadly, Nelson can argue that DC was acting in compliance with procedures in place at the time.
Where DC is culpable, IMO, is the excessive length of time he was on GF’s neck and in his failure to at least check on his charge’s condition and render aid.
Again IMO, with the autopsy showing NO damage to external or internal neck muscles/ tissue, it will be difficult to prove murder beyond reasonable doubt.
For me.... at this point in the trial.... 2nd degree manslaughter seems the mostly likely conviction. IMO, of course.

This is exactly the conclusion I just came to as well.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I have a bit of a problem with that testimony. I typically clasp my hands behind my back and raise me arms up to get a good stretch. I find that opens my airway.
After hearing that testimony, I tried keeping my hands behind my back as if I was in handcuffs. I did not find it to impede my breathing. I know that’s not very scientific.... but perhaps that will be addressed by the defense.

How about when have your hands behind your back and lay on your stomach?

 

[RANCH]

I would think, if there is strong evidence that shows that prior use of that restraint typically does NOT result in death, the defense will most definitely be presenting it.

That's one reason why I haven't made up my mind yet. I want to see what the defense brings to this trial.

 

[MsBetsy]

Does the autopsy not showing any neck injury create a problem for the prosecution? If the neck shows no signs of trauma then does that show that deadly force wasn’t used? I’m getting so nervous for the defence’s witnesses now because I feel this is where it’s going MOO

The second autopsy found the cause of death to be mechanical asphyxiation due to neck and back pressure. The independent ME's also added that his being handcuffed and in the prone position, in addition to the pressure on his back and neck, impaired his lungs and diaphragm from functioning properly.

Are they not allowing the Independent Autopsy?

 

[angelainwi]

how do you know that? I'm not watching the trial so maybe it's obvious to those who are but how do you know not one person in the crows is there for him?

Every day the pool reporter reports if there is anyone in either of the chairs for the Floyd family and the Chauvin side. Every day Chauvin's chair has been empty

 

[LadyL]

Every day the pool reporter reports if there is anyone in either of the chairs for the Floyd family and the Chauvin side. Every day Chauvin's chair has been empty

oh ok
I didn't realize there were specific chairs for them
but is there lots of seating for the public?
they could be mixing in with the public so as not to stand out?

 

[In vino veritas]

The second autopsy found the cause of death to be mechanical asphyxiation due to neck and back pressure. The independent ME's also added that his being handcuffed and in the prone position, in addition to the pressure on his back and neck, impaired his lungs and diaphragm from functioning properly.

Are they not allowing the Independent Autopsy?

From what I understand, the independent autopsy was paid for by the Floyd family and was based on written and video evidence. That is, it was not a physical autopsy. I could be mistaken, but I believe I read that. I’ll try to find a link.

 

[In vino veritas]

How about when have your hands behind your back and lay on your stomach?

Touché. I did not take it that far.

 

[angelainwi]

oh ok
I didn't realize there were specific chairs for them
but is there lots of seating for the public?
they could be mixing in with the public so as not to stand out?

There is no public gallery in this trial. The only people in the room are the judge, attorneys, jury, 2 pool reporters and 1 person allowed for each side as a spectator

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Touché. I did not take it that far.

 

[UKslueth2018]

The training manual on May 25, 2020 also advises officers to place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia after the suspect is in handcuffs.

I'm now seeing is the training manual on May 25, 2020 states, a neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

IF that's the case does that leave us with negligence for not putting GF in the recovery position or rendering him aid?

Wow so the neck hold is non-deadly force. Seriously?!

So from a legal perspective he didn’t apply deadly force in first place?!?! Cause policy says that option isn’t. That’s going to be something defence will use surely? Xx

Edit to add: that bothers me if a definition from a document negates the whole argument of deadly force. Jmo but that sucks xx

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Wow so the neck hold is non-deadly force. Seriously?!

So from a legal perspective he didn’t apply deadly force in first place?!?! Cause policy says that option isn’t. That’s going to be something defence will use surely? Xx

The policy in the Minneapolis Police Training Manual was changed in June 2020. Just days after this incident

 

[MsBetsy]

Was the official cause of death ever released by the ME?

Both autopsies labelled the manner of death a homicide but the COD differs.

The first autopsy listed the cause of death as "cardiopulmonary arrest complicating Law Enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression." In other words, Floyd's heart stopped as he was being restrained.

 

[UKslueth2018]

The policy in the Minneapolis Police Training Manual was changed in June 2020. Just days after this incident

Won’t matter for this though will it. Hmm this makes head spin. I then think poor jury peoples must be too xx

Edit to add. I will have to read jury instructions when they are issued. I would not want to be in their position right now at all xx

 

[JerseyGirl]

oh ok
I didn't realize there were specific chairs for them
but is there lots of seating for the public?
they could be mixing in with the public so as not to stand out?

Image of courtroom setup

There is also a separate room for the Floyd family with the live feed from the courtroom.