George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 1

[LadyL]

There is no public gallery in this trial. The only people in the room are the judge, attorneys, jury, 2 pool reporters and 1 person allowed for each side as a spectator

oh wow
is that because of Covid?

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Wow so the neck hold is non-deadly force. Seriously?!

So from a legal perspective he didn’t apply deadly force in first place?!?! Cause policy says that option isn’t. That’s going to be something defence will use surely? Xx

Edit to add: that bothers me if a definition from a document negates the whole argument of deadly force. Jmo but that sucks xx

The policy in the Minneapolis Police Training Manual was changed in June 2020. Just days after this incident

GF's family received $27 million in the civil suit from the City of Minneapolis during jury selection. I'm guessing the MPD training manual played a big role in the settlement.

 

[JerseyGirl]

oh wow
is that because of Covid?

yes

Courtroom setup:

 

[turaj]

Here's a link to an article on this subject.

The policy was changed or removed in June 2020 - just days after this incident.

A chokehold, the manual states, is a "deadly force option," which the police department defines as "applying direct pressure on a person's trachea or airway." A neck restraint is a "non-deadly force option" defined as "compressing one or both sides of a person's neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway."

The training manual, issued to all new officers, also features an image of how to execute the neck restraint. "Ok they are in handcuffs now what," the title above the image states. The department warns that "sudden cardiac arrest typically occurs immediately following a violent struggle." It also advises officers to "place the subject in the recovery position to alleviate positional asphyxia" and encourages officers to call emergency services once the suspect is in handcuffs.

The Minneapolis Police Department trained its officers to use the neck restraint that led to George Floyd's killing, according to court documents


https://twitter.com/b_stahl/status/1280913421161168897?

Thank you Tippy....I knew it had been pretty front and center in the news here...this is going to be a big hurdle...probably the only one the state will need to get over.

 

[MsBetsy]

From what I understand, the independent autopsy was paid for by the Floyd family and was based on written and video evidence. That is, it was not a physical autopsy. I could be mistaken, but I believe I read that. I’ll try to find a link.

I've never heard that. Dr. Michael Baden was the former chief of ME in NYC and is known for his work investigating high profile cases. He's apparently examined more than 20,000 bodies, so I hope he completed a proper exam.

 

[Algo214]

I wouldn't personally put too much weight on what level of force kneeling on someone's neck was deemed to be by the policies.
Things are what they are, not what they are made out to be, meaning if there are witnesses that testify it would be potentially deadly, depending on their credentials, that would supersede whatever was written.

I hope there is an actual doctor who can corroborate what the Lt. said in that direction.
If it happened THEN I'd be sure Chauvin is getting 2nd degree.

ETA: also, per the use of force continuum and critical thinking method (if I recall the terms correctly), Officers are to constantly reassess the use of force if circumstances changes, main one being the detainee being a threat or risk to himself, the Officers or others which George Floyd clearly was not for at least 3 or 4 minutes during the restraint.
Also, and this doesn't need more witnesses to be backed up as true, they were to "hold for EMS" (paraphrasing) and "absolutely should've rendered aid"

 

[Soulmagent]

I have been watching this on and off ,missed after lunch today. I cant watch the news reporting on it because they are not good at recaps. I always check you guys first.

I really am expecting the defense to bring the good in this case. Their own experts and a very good argument. One thing I expect to hear about is GF's claim of claustrophobia and of police in general , could it have triggered at dry drowning type of response . Could he have died due to fear basically ? I know it is possible but is it in his case?
That being said I really hope he gets convicted because he is scum who didnt care one bit about this person and did bring about his death ,even if it was legal to do that kind of hold. It is not legal to let him die while doing it.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

If his trachea or carotid artery was being crushed, would that have been evident at autopsy? I think the defence will go with a cardiac arrest caused by mixing methamphetamines with opioids, plus his distressed state = cardiac arrest. The state had the burden of proof so the defence don’t have to prove that he would have had a cardiac arrest from the drugs anyway, whether he was restrained or not. But the state have to prove that Chauvin’s actions caused GF’s death. If the defence can plant enough doubt as to whether GF’s ingestion of drugs is what caused his death then we are in trouble.
However, GF was conscious and breathing until Chauvin spent 9 minutes kneeling on his neck. Whether it’s deadly force or not he still didn’t reassess GF’s condition as he should have done.

 

[mom2chloe]

I have a bit of a problem with that testimony. I typically clasp my hands behind my back and raise me arms up to get a good stretch. I find that opens my airway.
After hearing that testimony, I tried keeping my hands behind my back as if I was in handcuffs. I did not find it to impede my breathing. I know that’s not very scientific.... but perhaps that will be addressed by the defense.

Interesting that we have heard throughout this Covid nightmare that patients with difficulty breathing and coughing should be placed in the prone position to facilitate easier breathing? How do we reconcile this?
Do we have any current or former military who might be able to weigh in on whether this knee to the neck tactic is something taught to them for use in combat? TIA!

 

[Inthedetails]

yes

Courtroom setup:

Very interesting! Thanks for that look into the courtroom.

 

[Cubby]

I have a bit of a problem with that testimony. I typically clasp my hands behind my back and raise me arms up to get a good stretch. I find that opens my airway.
After hearing that testimony, I tried keeping my hands behind my back as if I was in handcuffs. I did not find it to impede my breathing. I know that’s not very scientific.... but perhaps that will be addressed by the defense.

What about laying prone, handcuffed, with three adult men on your back?

 

[Cubby]

oh ok
I didn't realize there were specific chairs for them
but is there lots of seating for the public?
they could be mixing in with the public so as not to stand out?

Limited capacity due to covid restrictions and social distancing, so few people in the court room.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

If the autopsy that will be testified to in court found no evidence of asphyxia, then I hope there is some special video analyst that can disparage that. But then we heard I think it was the paramedic say he could see that GFs carotid artery was not being crushed. I must state I 100% believe DC should be found guilty, but is it his inactions on trial here or his actions. If they can prove he didn’t follow the correct procedure of providing care to GF, which of the charges does that make him guilty on? Do they have to prove DC’s knee/weight on GF caused his death to get a murder conviction? Is the fact that he failed to attempt to save GF’s life enough for murder or manslaughter or neither?
But then he upgraded from code 2 to code 3 so could the defence say that was him ‘providing medical attention’? We need a lawyer in here asap!

 

[Inthedetails]

Interesting that we have heard throughout this Covid nightmare that patients with difficulty breathing and coughing should be placed in the prone position to facilitate easier breathing? How do we reconcile this?
Do we have any current or former military who might be able to weigh in on whether this knee to the neck tactic is something taught to them for use in combat? TIA!

Not sure what the advised positions of arms is in a prone position for covid, but I'm willing to bet it's not handcuff position or with another person restraining you.

jmo

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Actually, DC’s failure to change position when alerted to GF being unresponsive is what sticks out as being an action that caused his death. Maybe that is something that will be a factor..

 

[Cubby]

Wow so the neck hold is non-deadly force. Seriously?!

So from a legal perspective he didn’t apply deadly force in first place?!?! Cause policy says that option isn’t. That’s going to be something defence will use surely? Xx

Edit to add: that bothers me if a definition from a document negates the whole argument of deadly force. Jmo but that sucks xx

I wonder if they will be sure to distinguish between deadly force and excessive force. In addition to reiterating GF was no longer a threat once he was handcuffed.

Each missed protocol individually might lead to an acquittal, but combined..... The totality brings this at minimum to the 3rd degree murder charge. We're past manslaughter.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I wonder if they will be sure to distinguish between deadly force and excessive force. In addition to reiterating GF was no longer a threat once he was handcuffed.

Each missed protocol individually might lead to an acquittal, but combined..... The totality brings this at minimum to the 3rd degree murder charge. We're past manslaughter.

I really hope so, this is the one thing that sticks out to me, that GF was no longer a threat and unresponsive, if DC was on top of him, surely he felt him go limp or atleast felt that he was no longer resisting which should have prompted him to stop restraining, especially as he was already handcuffed. The witnesses had a clear view of GF’s face during all this and could see him slowly dying, which is why they were so distraught. The footage is bad enough, can’t imagine what it must have been like to witness.

 

[Soulmagent]

Limited capacity due to covid restrictions and social distancing, so few people in the court room.

I have been wondering about this for a year. Does the limited persons in the court violate his right to a public trial? I think so ..but really I think this is a huge deal for every trial with restrictions on the public. I should have quoted the other post too.. that showed the drawing of the layout , I dunno but it is interesting and I do think a ton of appeals everywhere will be granted on that bases but IANAL.

 

[Weki]

Would you?

I think a mother or father at the very least. I’m guessing he doesn’t have any kids. The wife rolled out immediately. That’s rough!

 

[Inthedetails]

I have been wondering about this for a year. Does the limited persons in the court violate his right to a public trial? I think so ..but really I think this is a huge deal for every trial with restrictions on the public. I should have quoted the other post too.. that showed the drawing of the layout , I dunno but it is interesting and I do think a ton of appeals everywhere will be granted on that bases but IANAL.

The trial is broadcast - that's pretty public. Essentially everyone in the world can watch.

jmo