George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #13 Thursday July 11

[TexMex]

Thank you! Those who believe the victim, the DEAD VICTIM, is innocent of all the speculation about how dangerous and monstrous he is, is unfortunately in the minority. This is what disturbs me the most. There's NO EVIDENCE that TM punched or slammed GZ's face and head, only GZ's words. GZ's injuries could have been sustained elsewhere, yet TM being the aggressor is already accepted as the truth. There's no evidence that TM acted violently that night, no DNA of GZ was found on his person, yet this is generally spoken as facts.

I look at the evidence, or the lack thereof, and feel so sad...:sigh:

No evidence?
IMO the States witness, Mr. Good testified that TM was on top of GZ and illustrated how TM was moving his arms. This lines up with GZ account as well as the evidence photos of his injuries and pretty well shows the injuries were caused by TM and not "sustained elsewhere" JMO

 

[Foxfire]

Goodman only testified that he saw TM on top, and there were up and down arm motions. He did not testify under oath that TM punched GZ. In fact, another witness testified under oath that it was GZ on top, so who knows which witness is mistaken, or if they were at turns on top? IMO.

qwerty2013, prolly the best definition or analogy for circumstantial evidence that I have come across is;

'If you go to bed at night and there is no snow on the ground. Yet, when you wake up the next morning and peer out the window to see that there is an accumulation of snow on the ground.'

"It snowed during the night"...

 

[Isabelle]

Funny thing about the coroner's report. All we have is his word as to the condition of TM's body. No pictures were taken of his hands. Of, if they did, they disappeared. Since they say they scraped his nails for DNA you would think photos would have been very important. Something else that puzzles me, is how TM lost 50% of his blood before he died, but they don't find any at the scene. Nothing is made of that, but because they didn't find GZ's blood, it's suspicious.

The blood loss would have filled his lungs (crushing them so that no oxygenation, gas exchange was possible) and pericardial sac and would have leaked down the the diaphragm. Initially a clot would have formed, so the path of least resistance was internal. You raise an interesting question that would not be in favor of the defense, with why wasn't there any blood under TM. This could be seen as TM was not on top of GZ but it was the other way around and that the injury caused TM to use protective reflex, turn over and bring arms up to chest. IMO, backed by education and experience.

ETA: it is not at all unusual to see thousands of milliliters of blood drain out of the lungs through a chest tube. That is recognized as a major crisis and is even more of a problem if it suddenly stops as there is fear a clot has formed and the person may continue to bleed into the lungs, crushing the lungs and causing certain death.

 

[Karmady]

Is the manslaughter in or out? I thought it was in but the TH said the Judge ruled it out.

In. The jury instructions were just revised because the wording suggested that it was a crime with which he had been charged rather than a lesser included charge.

eta: there may have been more than one type of manslaughter charge requested, though. So some other type may have been excluded. I missed that part.

 

[qwerty2013]

Please quit saying where was no evidence...THERE WAS, Goodman saw Trayvon hitting Zimmerman, now you can choose not to believe it, but there WAS evidence.

AFTER the SHOT is when a couple people saw Zimmerman over Trayvon. CONSISTENT with Zimmerman's account.

IMO!

Please point to court testimony that JG saw TM hitting GZ. I heard only "up and down arm motions". IMO. ME testified that GZ's injuries were minor, he didn't need help, he didn't need medical treatment, he walked around right after the shot, he could work the next day, etc., all thee are not consistent with great bodily harm.
IMO.

And quoting some incident when someone did die of head injuries isn't relevant, because GZ didn't die, and needed no medical treatment, proving his injuries were minor in fact. IMO.

 

[?noanswer]

RE Violence occurring about verdict. To me it seems if the powers that be are reminding people not to be violent, would remind people to do just that.

JMO

 

[cityslick]

Actually, there were so many holes in GZ's account, eg. TM grabbed his gun, that he didn't know SYG, etc., that I would be surprised if jurors do not doubt his version of events at all.IMO.

I believe it was 'grabbed or trying to grab his gun' which I don't think has been disproven in court, no matter how many times Mr. Guy gets on the plastic dummy.

 

[Nezumi]

Really? Because I can cite cases where a child fell of a bike, Hit his head and died or was incapacitated. Being beaten in the head can lead to devastating injuries.

http://articles.mcall.com/2010-08-3...h-head-20100830_1_catasauqua-boy-bicycle-head

He was 12. Not at all a soft scalp.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10861298

Another 13 yr old girl

It is one thing to make a case based on evidence. But not just what we think or feel. That is not justice.

Scarlett, someday I hope to be in a position to buy you a drink...or three. I just want to thank you for your incredible patience and level headedness during this discussion. Many has been the time when I've started to post something in the heat of the moment, thought to myself: WWSD? and deleted. I do believe your good influence is the only thing that has kept me out of band camp.

 

[mck16]

I thought I heard the Judge just say that, but I also thought she had ruled it in this AM. I'm confused. The only thing that I can think is that maybe it was where it was placed on the instruction page.

JMO

It is out!!!! Thank goodness. jmo

 

[SassyMom]

Thank you for sharing this. Very courageous on this thread at this time. I am so glad for your son. Yep. When you need help, you have to wait for a crime to get it and when someone defends themselves they are charged and everyone cries racism. I will pray for your sons safety in the future.

Thanks Curious. It was a scary time, but now the lunatic is out of our neighborhood and we don't have to deal with him anymore. It is very frustrating that the law can't really do anything until you have suffered a crime but I also don't want to live in the world of the movie Minority Report either. Every day your child leaves your home they are at risk of someone doing something bad to them, but that is reality and you can't keep them 'in the womb' forever. Thanks for the prayer

 

[ShadyLady]

Goodman only testified that he saw TM on top, and there were up and down arm motions. He did not testify under oath that TM punched GZ. In fact, another witness testified under oath that it was GZ on top, so who knows which witness is mistaken, or if they were at turns on top? IMO.

OMG....what do you think Trayvon was doing....dancing?....oh, never mind....carry on.

IMO

 

[mdana]

Just curious, if TM was in fear for his life or being stalked by GZ. Why didn't he dial 911?

I understand the arguement that AA teens and young men don't feel comfortable contacting the police. However, if he was really fearful I don't understand why he seemingly contacted GZ. He was not cornered. If he thought GZ was a suspicious dude, he doesn't know if GZ is armed or is with other people. I would get into BG's house and contact my dad unless I was cornered. TM was able to lose GZ at least once and he should have been able to get home in 30-45 secs. depending on how how fast he walked. At that point he didn't do anything wrong, but it does not evidence fear. Could something else have happened or was TM lost, possibly, we just don't have evidence of it at this point. IMO

 

[missmazzy]

Scarlett, someday I hope to be in a position to buy you a drink...or three. I just want to thank you for your incredible patience and level headedness during this discussion. Many has been the time when I've started to post something in the heat of the moment, thought to myself: WWSD? and deleted. I do believe your good influence is the only thing that has kept me out of band camp.

DITTO! :seeya:

 

[LC446]

So if TM didn't attack GZ, how would GZ have gotten his injuries?

Quite simply....TM was defending himself. IMO

 

[Karmady]

Please point to court testimony that JG saw TM hitting GZ. I heard only "up and down arm motions". IMO.

The part where you take Good's testimony and combine it with the evidence of the injuries to George's head and face. jmo

 

[ShadyLady]

qwerty2013, prolly the best definition or analogy for circumstantial evidence that I have come across is;

'If you go to bed at night and there is no snow on the ground. Yet, when you wake up the next morning and peer out the window to see that there is an accumulation of snow on the ground.'

"It snowed during the night"...

Sorry to laugh....lol. But, I needed that.

 

[PaperDoll]

His PA believed his nose to be broken, and it was also written by an EMT (I believe) that his nose was broken.

It wasn't out of alignment the next day when he saw his PA, but she still believed it to be broken. And still believed it on the witness stand.

IMHO

They said it "appeared" to be but from my understanding he didn't go get checked until the next day and if I'm recalling this correctly, it was said it wasn't broken. Again, I could be wrong but this is my understanding.

 

[EGirl]

Thank you! Those who believe the victim, the DEAD VICTIM, is innocent of all the speculation about how dangerous and monstrous he is, is unfortunately in the minority. This is what disturbs me the most. There's NO EVIDENCE that TM punched or slammed GZ's face and head, only GZ's words. GZ's injuries could have been sustained elsewhere, yet TM being the aggressor is already accepted as the truth. There's no evidence that TM acted violently that night, no DNA of GZ was found on his person, yet this is generally spoken as facts.

I look at the evidence, or the lack thereof, and feel so sad...:sigh:

...and eyewitness testimony of course.

JMO

 

[missmazzy]

So if TM didn't attack GZ, how would GZ have gotten his injuries?

Maybe he punched himself out..:floorlaugh:

 

[Mrs.g]

It is out!!!! Thank goodness. jmo

It is not out.