George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #4

[missmazzy]

:seeya: Okay Websleuthers, what do we know about dangerous situations? Remember the FLIGHT or FIGHT response of our primitive brains? TM tried fleeing and it didn't work. Maybe he then went into fight mode. Maybe he threw the first punch. Maybe he was "mounted" on GZ with flailing arms throwing punches. But somewhere in this scenario the tables must have turned because GZ could not have pinned TM's fist, reached into his waistband and got his gun, and the shot TM at point blank range while rolling out from under him. There was no blood on GM's shirt or front, and TM was face down clutching his chest when the first responders got there.
So there is still a lot to think about and many witnesses to follow. Be cool. :truce:

Interesting. Wasn't the gun in a holster? Was it easily accessible ie., without something physically fastening it into place (snaps, Velcro)? It would be very difficult to remove with someone on top of you, wailing on your head. Could GZ have had the gun drawn while looking for TM? Just speculating...

 

[ncgramma]

Wrong

Not wrong. Just wording of the original post causing the problems. GZ was told by Sean that "we don't need you to do that", when GZ answered that he was trying to figure out which way TM had gone. GZ responded, "ok". If you listen closely you notice that GZ's breathing slows down and gets quieter.

 

[Overuled]

I need to wrap my head around this.
The pic on the left is in police car before going to station, the pic on the right is AT the police station later.

View attachment 35222

How can his nose be SO jacked up in the pic on the left, and be normal except for a scratch on the right?
Presuming it was within a couple hours, I do NOT know the time frame as I do not know how long he was at the station before they took the picture. IIRC Ms. Smith said within 3-4 hours?

Worth noting the picture on the left was released by GZ representation in Dec. 2012- http://gillreport.com/2012/12/video-new-bloody-photo-of-george-zimmerman-released/

Good question- The image on the left was slightly angled to the side and you can see more of the swelling. The image on the right was straight on and hard to tell the swelling. Plus his face was cleaned off in the image on the right.

 

[SassyMom]

Shaving his head would not erase the cuts in his scalp. It would just prove that some of the bumps he had that night are 'normal' for him.

 

[m00c0w]

The fact that you keep reducing the definition to one line points to you having a problem with how it is defined. That you keep trying to limit the commentary to that one point indicates that you are unable to argue against it on any other terms. The definition of the word is not the problem, nor is it a problem that it has been applied (quite correctly) to what GZ was doing. The problem is that you just don't seem to like it. I can't really help that.

I asked this on the previous page:

Let me put it this way: What else do you consider relevant to the definition? The examples? The word in the form not used? The synonyms that are... synonyms and not a definition?

 

[cityslick]

I never said anything about forged documents, but how could they tell a bone was broken without an x-ray?

Don't take my word for it.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/broken-nose-nasal-fracture-topic-overview

A broken nose is diagnosed through a physical examination and medical history. An X-ray of the nose is not usually needed or helpful if only a broken nose is suspected. If other facial injuries or fractures are suspected, a CT scan will be done. Your doctor may wish to delay evaluation until the swelling has gone down. This may take several days.

 

[corundogs]

One does not perceive the sound of "wet grass" with just one's ears (unless one is sensory disabled and has only auditory ability). It is practically impossible for someone to accurately recognize the sound of "wet grass" over the phone.

I disagree.

She knew it was raining.

Common sense tells you that when it rains, grass it wet. I mean, I don't need ANY sense other than the one called common to tell me that.

And if she didn't hear the phone fall onto concrete...what other option is there? I mean, she knew they were outside.

I guess I just disagree that one couldn't "know" what was happening just because all they can do is hear.

 

[Nymeria]

Thanks, I'm trying to understand if it was written in cursive for her by say a friend. So the written words would not be her own but someone elses.
imo

I do not know if this has been mentioned yet, but on the feeds about 5-10 min. after they went to recess the feed was showing about 30 seconds of someone taking a picture of a handwritten page with an iphone.
I thought it was the news station doing something for on air, but maybe it was happening in court and they are going to project the letter for everyone to see later?

 

[kaRN]

One of the neighbors who came out immediately after did say that Zimmerman seemed dazed.

He appears somewhat dazed on TV as well though. Almost fell asleep on day 1 actually.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

Let me put it this way: What else do you consider relevant to the definition? The examples? The word in the form not used? The synonyms that are... synonyms and not a definition?

I consider all of it to be relevant. To say that it's not valid because it doesn't fit one definition is incorrect if it also happens to fit another. That is why words can have multiple definitions and uses. The definition is not an "this AND this," it is an "this OR this." Since you made mention of logic earlier, surely you should understand the difference.

Note: edited for clarity (misstatement)

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Opening statement aren't necessarily facts. It's a narrative to give an overview of the case. There has been no testimony yet about GZ's injuries. Here's an article reporting what his medical report showed.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...ds-light-injuries-trayvon/t/story?id=16353532

I don't see a medical report, but an article I'm sure that was given by the defense. Hopefully we will see a true medical report and the physician on the witness stand unless of course GZ does not want to release his medical records which is his right not to do so.

 

[Moonie]

I haven't seen evidence that TM was 'scared' and that includes the testimony of the person on the stand.

Okay, maybe "scared" wasn't exactly mentioned. But why do you think TM ran from the creepy * * who was following him? Ijs.

 

[especiallyheather]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I have been a victim of a burgulary before. I can relate to GZ's enhanced alertness to what was going on in his neighborhood. But there is also logic and reason that still needs to be present. He could have rolled his window down and asked TM a few questions that would have caused this whole scenario to play out differently. GZ was the adult in this situation. He needed to have better reasoning skills then the 17 year old kid. No one had to die or be harmed in this situation if he was acting responsibly as he had done in the past with suspicious individuals. This whole situation is just really sad and tragic all the way around.

I agree.

 

[DIBSY]

it doesn't matter if his nose was broken or not. legally all that matters is that he felt his life was in imminent danger.

Then he didn't think his gun was any protection ? He couldn't have just pulled his gun and held TM in place until LE arrived ? No offense, but his Woe Is Me tale has no rhyme or reason. His " injuries" were extremely minimal. They didn't even bother to do X-Rays.

 

[AZWatcher]

Going to rephrase my question.

Is it normal for a 19 year old to get through the school system in FL ... to the 12th grade ...without ever having learned to read cursive writing? Is cursive writing still being taught?

Is this witness genuinely confused or combative?

TIA.

 

[cityslick]

I disagree.

She knew it was raining.

Common sense tells you that when it rains, grass it wet. I mean, I don't need ANY sense other than the one called common to tell me that.

And if she didn't hear the phone fall onto concrete...what other option is there? I mean, she knew they were outside.

I guess I just disagree that one couldn't "know" what was happening just because all they can do is hear.

How does a phone falling on concrete differ from a phone falling on grass, especially if it's knocked off a person? Wouldn't it just sound like a bump?

 

[Sweet Fox]

Can any lawyers explain how hearsay works in this instance? And how she's allowed to put out this nonsense testimony about what TM "would have" done, and testifying about sounds (wet grass) she only heard over the phone and could not possibly know for sure? I'm not understanding how this is able to be presented to the jury.

Oh WOW - what a great point. I'd like to know the answer to that too.

 

[Bernina]

That's what I mean, then how do we know that GZ had a broken nose? The photo I saw recently (couple of posts back) looks normal without blood. The one I saw in the media later where there was blood does look swollen. It's confusing to us.

If no x-rays were taken then how could one say I have a broken nose except to just claim that. I also wondered about all the band-aids when he didn't have any sutures. What was the purpose except for show?

The pic of GZ in the back of the squad car looks like his nose was possibly "packed" by the EMTs, (or GZ could have shoved some Kleenex up his nose) that's why it looks "re-arranged" in comparison to the pics taken several hours later at the LE station. I was confused at first too, then I recalled what was done when my nose was broken.....which did not compare whatsoever with the pics of GZ from the LE station.......within an hour, my eyelids were in the process of swelling shut, and the discoloration was apparent from across the bridge of my nose and eye to eye.
GZ's nose was packed to stop any bleeding, (by who, IDK) that's JMO.
I do recall reading GZ's wife was some type of medical person, tech, whatever.

 

[cityslick]

Okay, maybe "scared" wasn't exactly mentioned. But why do you think TM ran from the creepy * * who was following him? Ijs.

I don't know, GZ wasn't even out of his car yet when he ran.

 

[UdbCrzy2]

Don't take my word for it.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/broken-nose-nasal-fracture-topic-overview

A broken nose is diagnosed through a physical examination and medical history. An X-ray of the nose is not usually needed or helpful if only a broken nose is suspected. If other facial injuries or fractures are suspected, a CT scan will be done. Your doctor may wish to delay evaluation until the swelling has gone down. This may take several days.

If that is true that no x-ray taken, it still makes me go humm because from what I understand he complained of his head being bashed onto the concrete sidewalk, like the backside of his head. No x-ray to me means it wasn't really that bad afterall. Not saying that's what happened, I'm still waiting for testimony of his injuries and I'm still on the fence.