George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General discussion #4

[DIBSY]

Regarding the screams: Is there any report, written or oral, of GZ telling police/investigators immediately after the altercation, and before he heard the 911 call with the screams. that he was screaming for help? I, for one, believe it was Trayvon. GZ was too calm, cool and collected immediately after the killing. The voice we heard was that of a hysterical person - someone in fear for his life. Also sounded like a younger person. Just my $.02.

Well spotted!
Many of us believe it was Trayvon simply because of what you relayed. He reported that he had shot TM dead in the tone one would deliver a grocery list in. IMO
I have no doubts personally that TM was scared out of his wits and tried to use SELF DEFENSE in order to stay alive , asking GZ to " Get off " but GZ wasn't having any of that.

 

[Lovelymountains]

If GZ was hiding in bushes waiting for TM, how would he have known that TM was going to turn away from the home and double back going north?

I don't believe TM did that voluntarily. I think GZ grabbed some part of TM's body and pulled him back, maybe threatening him with the gun. I think GZ intended to hold him until the police came because "They always get away."
I think at some point TM resisted being illegally held and the shooting occured. I do not see any way there could have been no injuries on TM except the small cut on his left ring finger and the gunshot wound if it occurred as GZ claims. No scrapes on his knuckles, nothing.

 

[DIBSY]

So, you can't actually substantiate in any way anything you just posted?

Yes, I edited to give links:
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN DOES POORLY IN SCHOOL
Such as http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...cidentally-releases-private-docs-death-photo/
You can easily Google for the rest, it's all over the net.:seeya:
http://gawker.com/5897485/white-sup...n-martins-email-account-leaks-messages-online

WHITE SUPREMIST HACKS TM'sACCOUNTS

PART of ZIMMERMAN'S CRIMINAL RECORD
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite

 

[ncgramma]

Oh I think the state has very compiling evidence in my eyes. The evidence was presented by the Forensic Criminalist Tech. She said they found the bullet casing under TM. That is huge!!!

Nine MM eject to the right. How did the casing end up TM then? Something isn't right. I am still attempting to play it out in my mind how that 9 mm casing ended up under TM body facing down when semi-automatics eject bullets to the right.

Another big evidence, in my opinion, if TM was on top of GZ, according to his story, and GZ shot him on the right side. He would fall on top of GZ. I did not see blood spatter on his coat when the criminalist tech took pictures at the police station.

Another physic evidence, in my opinion, if TM fell on top of GZ when he was shot, he would not be able to clutch his chest, then fall on top of GZ before GZ rolls from out from under him allowing TM to follow as the police et al found him; that is, face down with his hands clutching his lower chest.

So there is evidence, subtle maybe, to me this is just the beginning that is huge to discredit GZ's story.

JMHO

The casing ended up under Trayvon because the ejection trajectory was blocked. Most likely by a part of Travon's body in such a close struggle. If TM was shot in the right side (while he was facing and leaning over GZ), GZ would have been reaching over from HIS right toward left/center. Easier to see how Trayvon's body could block the casing if you picture it that way.

The Arizona Tea can was in Trayvon's pocket. The weight of it would have pulled Trayvon's hoodie away from his body. Leaves a buffer between hoodie and shirt/body. Also explains why there was such a clean hole in the hoodie and more damage to his inside shirt.

Since it could take a millisecond to clutch your chest and then fall forward, or it could take a moment or two, I'm not understanding your questioning here. We have no way to gauge how long and apparently neither does LE.

I don't believe Trayvon's arms were found clutched under his body by LE. Didn't GZ say he had straddled Trayvon and moved Trayvon's arms away from his body before LE got there?

 

[iluvmua]

Well spotted!
Many of us believe it was Trayvon simply because of what you relayed. He reported that he had shot TM dead in the tone one would deliver a grocery list in. IMO
I have no doubts personally that TM was scared out of his wits and tried to use SELF DEFENSE in order to stay alive , asking GZ to " Get off " but GZ wasn't having any of that.

What was Trayvon's self defense? Concrete?

JMO

 

[Bernina]

Then what difference does it make, as it relates to this case?

I cannot find my post, but the context was with regards to past charges being brought up in court to show a pattern of actions.

Also, your "and you're looking at a stiffer sentence" commentary implies that it has some impact on your trial. I don't believe the prosector defines sentences, does he?

I'm not here to convince you one way or the other.

 

[sacrablue]

I don't believe TM did that voluntarily. I think GZ grabbed some part of TM's body and pulled him back, maybe threatening him with the gun. I think GZ intended to hold him until the police came because "They always get away."
I think at some point TM resisted being illegally held and the shooting occured. I do not see any way there could have been no injuries on TM except the small cut on his left ring finger and the gunshot wound if it occurred as GZ claims. No scrapes on his knuckles, nothing.

Exactly, TM resisted and probably punched him on the nose. GZ was getting his can beat up so Macho George shot him.

 

[numnut]

Can anyone tell me, what/why TM's phone became disconnected from Rachel? What made the call end after the grass sounds?

Has anyone ever been butt dialed? I have and since I was just bored, I stayed on the line listening to my hubby deal with a customer. I hung up after about 30 min.

Also, where was TM's phone found in relation to his body? AND... how far away was he from his dad's house.

I think TM and RJ ended their conversation and then the encounter happened. I believe she was pressured at first by TM's mother and then attorney's, etc. to saying she heard more than she did.

GZ should NEVER have left his car that night but then he isn't charged with that. I feel this whole thing is in trial due to public pressure and the fanagling with witnesses.

 

[Karmady]

Thanks! This was the brunette whose 911 tape had the screams on it, right?

Hearing about it doesn't do it justice. You really need to see it to fully appreciate it. What's more, he was trying to impeach his OWN witness with it!

 

[Nymeria]

Semi-automatics eject erratically, and some even eject upwards. It depends on the weapon and other factors.

In any case, the ME's report puts the shot going from left to right in the body. This means the gun was slightly canted to one side. If this is the case, the shell may have ejected and hit Martin, and bounced back down onto Zimmerman. As Zimmerman was sliding out from under the body, the shell was left underneath Martin. Not all that hard to explain, IMO.

OK GZ is a lefty, who does almost everything else with right hand, IIRC.
Does anyone know if his holster was set for use with his left hand or right? You would wear it on left if you're a right, on right if a lefty, correct?

Not sure if this matters at all, just curious.

 

[iluvmua]

The casing ended up under Trayvon because the ejection trajectory was blocked. Most likely by a part of Travon's body in such a close struggle. If TM was shot in the right side (while he was facing and leaning over GZ), GZ would have been reaching over from HIS right toward left/center. Easier to see how Trayvon's body could block the casing if you picture it that way.

The Arizona Tea can was in Trayvon's pocket. The weight of it would have pulled Trayvon's hoodie away from his body. Leaves a buffer between hoodie and shirt/body. Also explains why there was such a clean hole in the hoodie and more damage to his inside shirt.

Since it could take a millisecond to clutch your chest and then fall forward, or it could take a moment or two, I'm not understanding your questioning here. We have no way to gauge how long and apparently neither does LE.

I don't believe Trayvon's arms were found clutched under his body by LE. Didn't GZ say he had straddled Trayvon and moved Trayvon's arms away from his body before LE got there?

It was actually the Watermelon Fruit Juice that is made by the Arizona Ice tea company.

Not iced tea itself

http://www.local10.com/news/evidenc...uice/-/1717324/20683764/-/b5ehbu/-/index.html

 

[m00c0w]

Yes, I edited to give links:
Such as http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...cidentally-releases-private-docs-death-photo/
You can easily Google for the rest, it's all over the net.:seeya:

I believe the question was more directed towards you claiming that his twitter and social media accounts were hacked.

Furthermore, you are responsible for providing proof if you do not claim it as your opinion, per the rules of this thread.

 

[m00c0w]

OK GZ is a lefty, who does almost everything else with right hand, IIRC.
Does anyone know if his holster was set for use with his left hand or right? You would wear it on left if your'e a right, on right if a lefty, correct?

Not sure if this matters at all, just curious.

Lefties can be right-handed shooters, and vice-versa. It mainly depends on your eye dominance. It also helps for lefties to train with their right hand, because a lot of weapons are made for right-handed individuals.

This being said, I'm pretty sure he was using a right-handed IWB holster. I'll take a look at the testimony the crime scene specialist gave and report back, because I'm also curious about this.

 

[iluvmua]

Can anyone tell me, what/why TM's phone became disconnected from Rachel? What made the call end after the grass sounds?

Has anyone ever been butt dialed? I have and since I was just bored, I stayed on the line listening to my hubby deal with a customer. I hung up after about 30 min.

Also, where was TM's phone found in relation to his body? AND... how far away was he from his dad's house.

I think TM and RJ ended their conversation and then the encounter happened. I believe she was pressured at first by TM's mother and then attorney's, etc. to saying she heard more than she did.

GZ should NEVER have left his car that night but then he isn't charged with that. I feel this whole thing is in trial due to public pressure and the fanagling with witnesses.

You are right about that, IMO

I agree

IMO, it is.

 

[kaRN]

chris brown's 911 call (for being allegedly stalked no less):

http://www.tmz.com/2013/03/10/chris-brown-car-accident-porsche-911-call-paparazzi-christopher/


hasn't CB also had multiple run-ins with the law? (beating rihanna's face to a pulp?) but despite that, he's not distrustful of police it seems...

CB as representative of the typical experience of african american men in America? Millionaire CB? Seriously?

 

[Schuby]

There are so many posts on this thread that say "I believe..." Or "I don't believe...", you guys realize that everytime you say "I believe..," you're basically saying, "I know this isn't yet proven but I want to think it's true anyway"? What is wrong with waiting and seeing where the evidence takes us over the course of the trial?

 

[Sleuth5]

This contradicts that TM was suspended for fighting:
"Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year.[44] One suspension was for tardiness. Another suspension was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with "W.T.F." When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said were not his, stating a friend had given them to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen. Martin's third suspension involved a marijuana pipe, and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record.[44][45][46][47][48] Judge Nelson ruled that the defense may have access to Martin's records, including the details of these suspensions, as well as access to Martin's social media sites,[49] but ruled they will not be admissible as evidence during the trial unless they can be shown to be relevant.[50]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#Trayvon_Martin

I want to see school records @ this point before I believe anything.

Thank you. :cheers:

 

[m00c0w]

OK GZ is a lefty, who does almost everything else with right hand, IIRC.
Does anyone know if his holster was set for use with his left hand or right? You would wear it on left if you're a right, on right if a lefty, correct?

Not sure if this matters at all, just curious.

Here is the gun in question, and holster:

And the crime scene specialist with the same weapon

While I'm not entirely sure what's going on with the velcro stuff on the holster there, I believe that's the front and there is a clip on the back which makes that a right-handed holster.

Furthermore, the pistol's magazine release is still on the left side of the weapon, indicating he used it with his right hand being dominant. Your thumb cannot actuate the magazine release if you drew with your left hand. It is designed to be interchangeable, which he certainly would have done if he shot dominantly with his left hand.

ETA: And yes, there was a clip on the reverse of the holster in the picture. Right-hand inside the waistband holster like I thought.

http://f.cl.ly/items/1f1U271M44282L3E1t1K/Screen Shot 2013-06-27 at 6.59.43 PM.png

 

[JudyBolton]

If it had been George on top, Trayvon would have ended up on his back. If Trayvon had been on top, he would have fallen on top of George, and George would have had to pull himself out from under Trayvon. If George had been on top of Trayvon's back, Trayvon would have been shot in the back.

From what I've read the DT has a renowned forensic expert that will explain all about the gun, the path of the bullet - the pattern through TM's sweatshirt, etc. I look forward to hearing that as so far I haven't heard much hard evidence - mostly shadows, "ear-witnesses", and Yes Sir's!

 

[IzzyBlanche]

He was going to accuse her a bias in favor of the defense because he checked her Twitter page and GZ's name appeared in one of the suggested follow columns. She wasn't following him or anyone else. She just (apparently) did what I did and that was open a twitter account but never uses it. She doesn't follow anyone and has never tweeted. He really quite embarrassed himself.

Does anyone know why he would want to accuse his own witness of bias in favor of the defense? If he thought she was biased, why didn't he simply not call her as a witness?