George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin General Discussion Thread #8

[ilovewings]

No, it's never okay to hunt someone down with the intent to kill them.

What I'm trying to understand, and what is the most pivotal point in this case, is who attacked who? By sugar coating one or the other's recent past history, it makes it hard to correctly decide who would have attacked who.

If we've got one guy who has never ever been in a fight, who was extremely docile and was known to talk his way or flee his way out of altercations, that's something to strongly consider.

I don't believe that was the case for Trayvon, based on a variety of things and RJ's reaction to her knowledge that he had gotten into a fight while on the phone with her.

It's important for the jury to clearly see each individual's recent past in order to guess what happened - because that's what they're going to have to do. Make a good educated guess.

IMHO.

why didn't George just wait for the police? had he stayed in his truck in the first place we would not be here. George has a history of violence against a federal officer and against a girlfriend. can't find the link but it is true. no convictions I suspect because his father was a magistrate. For me George was a time bomb waiting to go off. he was a cop wannabe and on that fateful night, sadly for Trayvon Martin, George decided he was up to no good and pursued him and shot him dead. we can't know exactly what happened when those two met up of course but so far George has given several different versions of what happened and on the Hannity show he said he would do nothing different and Trayvon's death was "God's Plan". hmmm

 

[JeannaT]

Is there a link, please to Rachel Jeantel saying exactly " it was just a fight
", please? For one thing, fights in some connotations by some people are merely Verbal and not Physical...plus she had no way of knowing GZ was armed with a deadly weapon.

Here you go. From her testimony, and quoted from her letter to TM's mother.
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/0...y-determine-george-zimmerman-trial-day-4-fate

"In my mind, I thought it was just a fight". Note in context, she could hear scuffling. This is not a girl who thought she was hearing a verbal argument. IMHO

 

[PaperDoll]

He didn't change from wanting the police to meet him. Actually he asked them to call him so he could direct them to him quicker - the dispatcher was confused by his directions to where his car was parked. He was pretty clear he thought they needed to get there quickly after TM approached him with his hands in the waistband of his pants, then circled his car while staring him down.
This move by TM may or may not have been intended to be threatening, but I would have at least considered it to be confrontational.

He did change, he said to have them call me. That is changing from have them meet me at my car.

In regard to the bold: TM RAN, there was no threat there. TM had his hands in his waistband but then he RAN. So, we can also say then that TM may have felt "threatened" when GZ said when TM came out of the bushes and said "Got a problem, homie" and GZ said, "no, I don't have a problem" then told police he was now searching for his cell phone because he didn't remember what pocket he put it in, do you think that TM may have thought this guy is reaching for a gun? TM knew he didn't have one

 

[Jane Jetson]

Actually what she said was the back of the head injuries showed One impact on the cement and she detailed as to why and said those " specks " were miminal or words to that effect and only required bandaids. As we have seen susequently, those injuries were by no means "serious." AND GZ showed no indication of pain whatsoever.IMO
Now, the Defense got her to say it might have been possible there was more than one impact on the sidewalk...possible , yes, but she had already testified in her expert evaluation that in this instance there was ONLY ONE.
Injuries with no marks were ever entered into evidence and were not even alluded to in what I watched of yesterday's testimony...other than perhaps speculation...there has not been any medical evidence re internal injury of any sort..and Chris Serino said he thought GZ had " exaggerated" his injuries.IMO I have already linked to that.

Nothing is to say if TM had scratches on his hand prior to GZ's attack . But none of the marks had any correlation to GZ's minor injuries.IMO
I did read that there was none of GZ's DNA beneath TM's fingernails. IMO

I believe the three iimpacts included the hit to the nose, IIRC. I know MOM asked her twice about "three impacts," and she agreed, which was surprising to me, as Rao was very insistent about the back of the head being one. I wrote it down, but may have missed the gist.

As an aside: I love your sig. I have Psalm 91 opened up on a pedestal by our bed, and my favorite part is

For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

Good stuff!

 

[sacrablue]

It wasn't pitch black. If it were pitch black, Zimmerman wouldn't have been able to see Trayvon, and Trayvon wouldn't have been able to see Zimmerman clearly enough to know he was being followed.

It was dark, with some porch lights on here and there. IMHO

OK so how could TM run from the sidewalk and hide behind the mystery bush without GZ seeing him?

 

[Chris_Texas]

IMO) NO. You would have to have a reasonable fear for example, someone had you pinned to the ground, was beating the hell out of you, slamming your head against concrete while saying I'm going to kill you MF. Under such circumstances, you have ever right to defend yourself by any means, including, shooting the . MOO

Sadly for GZ, there is no evidence that this happened, and plenty of evidence that he is not to be trusted.

Big examples: He has never explained WHY he was convinced TM was on drugs, he has never explained what he meant when he said there was something definately wrong with TM, he claimed Martin returned to the street from the T and circled his vehicle in a threatening manner, he claimed he was struck in the face twenty-five plus times, he claimed that Martin attacked and knocked him to the ground at the T -- something the physical evidence disputes.

I could go on, but there is no need.

A young man is dead. He was killed by George Zimmerman. George is claiming that he had no choice but to kill, and that his poor choices leading up to the conflict have no bearing on what occurred. Since no one witnessed what happened the jury will need to decide whether or not they believe Zimmerman.

If they do, they will do so despite the holes and flaws in Zimmerman's story. Either way, a young man will still be dead. His only objectively demonstrable "crime" was walking around while talking to a friend on the phone, and fitting a <mod snip> profile that GZ found suspicious. IMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

OK so how could TM run from the sidewalk and hide behind the mystery bush without GZ seeing him?

Around the other side.. There are plenty of places he could have hidden...

The possibilities are there.

OMO

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Sadly for GZ, there is no evidence that this happened, and plenty of evidence that he is not to be trusted.

Big examples: He has never explained WHY he was convinced TM was on drugs, he has never explained what he meant when he said there was something definately wrong with TM, he claimed Martin returned to the street from the T and circled his vehicle in a threatening manner, he claimed he was struck in the face twenty-five plus times, he claimed that Martin attacked and knocked him to the ground at the T -- something the physical evidence disputes.

I could go on, but there is no need.

A young man is dead. He was killed by George Zimmerman. George is claiming that he had no choice but to kill, and that his poor choices leading up to the conflict have no bearing on what occurred. Since no one witnessed what happened the jury will need to decide whether or not they believe Zimmerman.

If they do, they will do so despite the holes and flaws in Zimmerman's story. Either way, a young man will still be dead. His only objectively demonstrable "crime" was walking around while talking to a friend on the phone, and fitting a racial profile that GZ found suspitious.

No, If they do it will be because the STATE could not prove that GZ wanted TM dead. They have not proved that yet. IMO!

And please add IMO or JMO. I have that in my siggy also but we need to add the MOO so that we can keep the thread going !!

 

[DIBSY]

Sadly for GZ, there is no evidence that this happened, and plenty of evidence that he is not to be trusted.

Big examples: He has never explained WHY he was convinced TM was on drugs, he has never explained what he meant when he said there was something definately wrong with TM, he claimed Martin returned to the street from the T and circled his vehicle in a threatening manner, he claimed he was struck in the face twenty-five plus times, he claimed that Martin attacked and knocked him to the ground at the T -- something the physical evidence disputes.

I could go on, but there is no need.

A young man is dead. He was killed by George Zimmerman. George is claiming that he had no choice but to kill, and that his poor choices leading up to the conflict have no bearing on what occurred. Since no one witnessed what happened the jury will need to decide whether or not they believe Zimmerman.

If they do, they will do so despite the holes and flaws in Zimmerman's story. Either way, a young man will still be dead. His only objectively demonstrable "crime" was walking around while talking to a friend on the phone, and fitting a racial profile that GZ found suspitious.

Brilliant post, Chris-Texas !! Thank you for it~~ It goes hand and hand with yesterday's testimony from Chris Serino.IMO
I wonder how many more of GZ's lies will be exposed? IMO

 

[Jane Jetson]

He did change, he said to have them call me. That is changing from have them meet me at my car.

In regard to the bold: TM RAN, there was no threat there. TM had his hands in his waistband but then he RAN. So, we can also say then that TM may have felt "threatened" when GZ said when TM came out of the bushes and said "Got a problem, homie" and GZ said, "no, I don't have a problem" then told police he was now searching for his cell phone because he didn't remember what pocket he put it in, do you think that TM may have thought this guy is reaching for a gun? TM knew he didn't have one

IIRC, and this is still just an opinion of mine, because George said it, he wanted them to call him to find out exactly where he was, presumably because GZ was going back to his car, but wouldn't necessarily be there when the police arrived.

When you say "TM ran," that's one of the parts that makes me think that he then came back. In my opinion, Mr. Martin ran away, and then came back to let Zimmerman know - and this is pure speculation on my part - that he was not someone to be messed with. I believe that Trayvon felt that George was in his business - which he was, vis-a-vis watching TM's movements - and wanted to make sure that that didn't happen again.

 

[Chris_Texas]

Prove he was the aggressor.. That is the problem. You can't and neither can the state. They said so in their Opening.

That is the end of the case.

OMO

That's not the state's job. They do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman shot Martin as Zimmerman has admitted to this. Zimmerman is the one making the claim that he had no choice but to shoot TM. The jury is not supposed to assume that Zimmerman is telling the truth, they are supposed to weight the evidence and decide this for themselves. If they don't believe him, if they think they have reason to doubt any aspect of his story, they should properly find him guilty.

It is the state's job to create doubt as to Zimmerman's credibility. I think Zimmerman has managed to do a fine job of this all on his own. IMO

 

[Karmady]

They weren't attacking anyone, they were just being jerks, IMO.

I also noticed that the Skype bombing didn't begin in earnest until it was the defense's turn to cross.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

They weren't attacking anyone, they were just being jerks, IMO.

And smartly left their name and number if the court wanted to pursue it! HA...

 

[LinTX]

Nope there is not law against following someone, but looked what happened to that person who was being followed. I'm sure there is no law about jumping in a lions cage, but you are taking a big risk if you do. :twocents:

Neighborhood watch isn't suppose to confront anyone, simply call it in. I would wonder why a neighborhood watch would confront me, who is he to do that?

When did GZ confront TM - when his nose hit TM's fist? I do think he was probably trying to do what they are told to do - keep their eyes on the person so he could tell the police when they arrived.

 

[georgiagirl]

Why did TM run from GZ, twice? If TM was violent, why didn't he confront GZ while he was in the car watching him? Why did he run instead?

IMO he was not in fear of GZ at all but was aware that GZ was checking him out so TM may have been playing a cat and mouse game with GZ.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

That's not the state's job. They do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman shot Martin as Zimmerman has admitted to this. Zimmerman is the one making the claim that he had no choice but to shoot TM. The jury is not supposed to assume that Zimmerman is telling the truth, they are supposed to weight the evidence and decide this for themselves. If they don't believe him, if they think they have reason to doubt any aspect of his story, they should properly find him guilty.

It is the state's job to create doubt as to Zimmerman's credibility. I think Zimmerman has managed to do a fine job of this all on his own. IMO

Actually it is. They need to prove that GZ went after TM with malice and wanted him dead.

They have to prove MURDER 2.

OMO.

 

[Karmady]

That's not the state's job. They do not have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman shot Martin as Zimmerman has admitted to this. Zimmerman is the one making the claim that he had no choice but to shoot TM. The jury is not supposed to assume that Zimmerman is telling the truth, they are supposed to weight the evidence and decide this for themselves. If they don't believe him, if they think they have reason to doubt any aspect of his story, they should properly find him guilty.

It is the state's job to create doubt as to Zimmerman's credibility. I think Zimmerman has managed to do a fine job of this all on his own. IMO

The state still has to prove the elements of 2nd degree murder, which includes more than just shooting someone. They are failing miserably so far, as expected. And based on the history of this case, I have no doubt they will continue to fail miserably. jmo

 

[missmazzy]

I also noticed that the Skype bombing didn't begin in earnest until it was the defense's turn to cross.

...now that you mention it.....:facepalm:

 

[Jane Jetson]

Respectfully snipped.

[Mr. Martin's] only objectively demonstrable "crime" was walking around while talking to a friend on the phone, and fitting a racial profile that GZ found suspicious. IMO

In my opinion, you have no idea whether or not George Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon Martin. He just saw Mr. Martin, according to GZ's account, acting suspiciously in a neighborhood George had promised to protect, imo. He was then viciously attacked by TM, in my opinion, and had no choice but to be seriously injured or die, or protect himself. IMO.

 

[Love Never Fails]

Suspensions don't mean anything, you could be suspended for chronic tardies to class. It no way shape or form implies that he was a violent "" or out of control child. If so I'm sure he'd have a juvenile record by the age of 17. No one is making him out to be a lilly but some posters are talking about him as if he were some type of hood gangbanging dude. NOT THE CASE. He was a regular teenager who, like every single teenager on this planet, got into a little trouble. Name me one perfect teenager and I'll make you the Queen of England.

Whayt gets me is how Zimmerman can have this record of physical violence (abusing a gf, fighting a police officer, throwing a lady when he was working as a bouncer) but that's okay. Somehow Zimmerman's proven record makes him a meek and mild person but people want to paint trayvon as vioent from nominal teenage activity.

A regular teenager? Hope not!!!! None of my four kids were suspended three times. And his records are sealed? I think he was the aggressor and it is a shame the defense cannot bring out his history.