Germanwings Airbus crash 24 March #1

[Elley Mae]

The 27-year-old pilot had no known association with extremist or terrorist groups, German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said.

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-germanwings-plane-crash-20150326-story.html#navtype=outfit

Every time I read this I want to ask if they have other pilots that are. I just find that statement weird. idk jmo

 

[SophieRose]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-the-pilots-on-Germanwings-flight-4U9525.html

On his Facebook profile, he said he was especially interested in the A320 and followed pilots chatroom in which they discussed technical aspects and different scenarios. His Facebook page has now been removed.

 

[emirates1957]

Germanwings/Lufthansa are going to be sued for substantial damages by the victims families since they allowed him to fly in my opinion.[/QUOTe
I guess we never really know who is fit to fly and who isn't. Providing these aviators pass their medicals, emergency procedures proficiencies, sim rides, observation checks and the list goes on, they are valid to operate. Lufthansa allowed him to fly simply because he jumped the hoops and ticked the boxes. So so sad, I bet my bottom dollar that their would be colleagues, operational managers, check captains, flight crew, instructors to name a few perhaps would have had that old gut feeling that something was not quite right. Over the years there have been 2 pilots that many crews did not feel confident about their emotional stability. They were both high functioning, intelligent individuals, one put a light A/C into the ground the other into the ocean, fortunately they were solo.
Dear Greg your information and input is invaluable.

 

[SouthAussie]

Mr Hansford called on top airlines to revisit the testing process, and examine the quality of judgment of psychiatrists and psychologists.

"These are the people who should be having a very close look at themselves as to their degree of competence," he said.

"Good airlines do a lot of human factors profiling before a person's employed."

Mr Hansford also suggested a procedure for peer monitoring among airline staff.

"I think we have to have a reporting system or a dob-in-a-mate if you think that there's somebody flying with you who has mental problems or stresses that could be depressive, driven by marriage problems or financial problems," he said.

"This is where we need some leadership out of the pilots unions with the companies to come to a situation, because these people don't have these problems hidden in the back door — there are signs there for everybody and we can't just not react to them."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...ng-cockpit-security-germanwings-crash/6352578

 

[sar2them1984]

I wonder if any criminal charges will be made against the airline.

I've been thinking about this and put my law cap on.

I'm guessing any criminal proceedings would go down the negligence route.

Here is a link to the stages of proving negligence

http://injury.findlaw.com/accident-injury-law/proving-fault-what-is-negligence.html

So it's a no brainer that the airline owed a duty of care to its staff and passengers.

So we go on to stage 2 - Breach

"whether the defendant breached this duty by doing (or not doing something) that a "reasonably prudent person" would do under similar circumstances"

The consequence of the risk also needs to be reasonably foreseeable. I.e. if I stand on a chair with a loose leg is it reasonably foreseeable that the chair will collapse causing me to fall?

So, I'm thinking that there are two main routes which could be bought up.

1. Was it reasonably foreseeable that by not having a "2 person in the cockpit rule" that the plane would be taken over by a rogue crew member... well I would argue no. There is no such law dictating that European planes need to have this rule (although it is best practice in USA to do so) so Lufthansa have not breached any law. There have been very few cases where planes have been overtaken by rogue crew members so there is no past history patterns which would make this forsee able. There are many other reasons why this exact situation is unforseeable (although though some may argue that by not having two people in the cockpit it is reasonably foreseeable that the plane was open to subterfuge/hijacking by others however the implementation of safety devices such as the internal door lock is meant to mitigate against this)

2. Is it reasonably foreseeable that a crew member with a past history of mental health issues could suffer a relapsed flight. Well, this would depend on whether the airline knew the crew mber had suffered from mental health issues previously. If they did know then it would need to be looked into to determine what controls were put in place to mitigate this risk (/termination of contract/regular psych tests/counselling/special protocols put in place). If they weren't aware then no it wasn't foreseeable - if they don't know then they can't do anything about it.

So if they did know and they did not act to mitigate against this then yes they would be found negligent in a nutshell

It seems unclear at the moment whether the airline were or weren't aware of his past mental health history

Just my two cents worth I'm sure many will disagree but happy to discuss!!

 

[gregjrichards]

New article "no smoking gun found" according to police spokesperson

"Police searching a home of the German co-pilot who officials say appears to have deliberately crashed a plane into the French Alps said today they had seized evidence but no “smoking gun”.

Officers combing through a flat kept by Andreas Lubitz in the western city of Duesseldorf said they had seized “various items and papers”, police spokesman Marcel Fiebig told AFP.

“We will see whether this will explain what happened — everything is being examined,” he said, adding that there was no “smoking gun” to shed light on a possible motive."

http://www.malaysiandigest.com/worl...ind-no-smoking-gun-in-crash-pilot-s-home.html

Source of information is from the French news agency Agence France-Presse (AFP) which is highly reputableB]

 

[Elley Mae]

New article "no smoking gun found" according to police spokesperson

"Police searching a home of the German co-pilot who officials say appears to have deliberately crashed a plane into the French Alps said today they had seized evidence but no “smoking gun”.

Officers combing through a flat kept by Andreas Lubitz in the western city of Duesseldorf said they had seized “various items and papers”, police spokesman Marcel Fiebig told AFP.

“We will see whether this will explain what happened — everything is being examined,” he said, adding that there was no “smoking gun” to shed light on a possible motive."

http://www.malaysiandigest.com/worl...ind-no-smoking-gun-in-crash-pilot-s-home.html

Nothing personal Greg but I don't trust malay news, not after there reporting or I should say non reporting on their on plane crash. jmo

 

[gregjrichards]

Germanwings/Lufthansa are going to be sued for substantial damages by the victims families since they allowed him to fly in my opinion.[/QUOTe
I guess we never really know who is fit to fly and who isn't. Providing these aviators pass their medicals, emergency procedures proficiencies, sim rides, observation checks and the list goes on, they are valid to operate. Lufthansa allowed him to fly simply because he jumped the hoops and ticked the boxes. So so sad, I bet my bottom dollar that their would be colleagues, operational managers, check captains, flight crew, instructors to name a few perhaps would have had that old gut feeling that something was not quite right. Over the years there have been 2 pilots that many crews did not feel confident about their emotional stability. They were both high functioning, intelligent individuals, one put a light A/C into the ground the other into the ocean, fortunately they were solo.
Dear Greg your information and input is invaluable.

Thank you emirates1957 I also appreciate your and everyone else's posts. All the posts and articles we are posting from around the world with the latest information are excellent.

 

[gregjrichards]

Nothing personal Greg but I don't trust malay news, not after there reporting or I should say non reporting on their on plane crash. jmo

I agree with you but the information is from the French Press Agency which is a very reputable news source like Reuters or the Associated Press.

 

[Elley Mae]

Curious if there is a toilet outside the cabin or is there one in the back of the plane.

 

[Gin]

Mr Hansford called on top airlines to revisit the testing process, and examine the quality of judgment of psychiatrists and psychologists.

"These are the people who should be having a very close look at themselves as to their degree of competence," he said.

"Good airlines do a lot of human factors profiling before a person's employed."

Mr Hansford also suggested a procedure for peer monitoring among airline staff.

"I think we have to have a reporting system or a dob-in-a-mate if you think that there's somebody flying with you who has mental problems or stresses that could be depressive, driven by marriage problems or financial problems," he said.

"This is where we need some leadership out of the pilots unions with the companies to come to a situation, because these people don't have these problems hidden in the back door — there are signs there for everybody and we can't just not react to them."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-...ng-cockpit-security-germanwings-crash/6352578

JMO, BBM-Most (if not all) airlines already have this. I am surprised the author is unaware. Lufthansa CEO was discussing their program yesterday. These programs for reporting a colleague or self reporting about a personal problem, challenge or other issue have been around a long time.

 

[gregjrichards]

Additional new article about items taken from co-pilots house and flat

"German police seized on Friday a number of items at the homes of Andreas Lubitz the copilot who appears to have deiberately crashed the Germanwings A320 flight in the French Alps on Tuesday.

Various objects and papers" were seized at Lubitz's Dusseldorf apartment and at his parents' home in the west German town of Montabaur, Dusseldorf police spokesperson Marcel Fiebig said on Friday.

A person with their face covered left with police, who also took two plastic bags full of material and a computer hard drive.

But Fiebig said that reports in the British media that a significant find had been made were the result of a misunderstanding."

http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20...anwings-a320-crash-copilots-home-france-spain

 

[SouthAussie]

Did we know this already? It seems that the 'significant clue' boils down to one piece of paper, which they have sent for testing.


"German media is also reporting that police are investigating one particular piece of paper which they believe holds clues to Lubitz’s horrific actions."

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...t-andreas-lubitz/story-fnizu68q-1227280471225

 

[gregjrichards]

Curious if there is a toilet outside the cabin or is there one in the back of the plane.

This useful link shows the layout of a Germanwings Airbus A320 there is a toilet at the front beside the cockpit and two toilets at the back of the plane. http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Germanwings/Germanwings_Airbus_A320.php

 

[Sonya610]

If someone wants to kill themselves and everyone else on the plaine, when he had the chance, why didn't he nose dive as soon as the FO left the cabin?

(question on twitter from someone else, but it's a good one)

Perhaps he thought about crashing the plane into a more populated area? Maybe he decided he wouldn't have time to reach a city before the door was either broken in OR jet fighters were scrambled.

The whole thing is very very strange. It sure does not sound like classic suicidal depression which typically makes people very tired and craving sleep/death to stop the suffering. Planning a mass murder requires both energy and focus that really depressed people generally can't muster (which is why the suicide risk goes up when starting on meds, the meds provide enough energy/initiative to do the job) and most importantly mass murder requires ANGER.

If he didn't leave a note or manifesto he probably did plan this spur of the moment. Everyone has some grips about the world and he would know that whatever he wrote would be WIDELY read so if he didn't leave a message behind I would have to assume he didn't really plan for this.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Citing internal documents and Lufthansa sources, Bild said Lubitz spent a total of one and a half years in psychiatric treatment and that the relevant documents would be passed to French investigators once they had been examined by German authorities.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/27/us-france-crash-co-pilot-idUSKBN0MN0I620150327

My goodness are they short on pilots there or did they not want to hurt his feelings and tell him to find another job. wth 1 1/2 years in treatment and they still let him fly.?

Bingo, Elley......bingo!

 

[SouthAussie]

JMO, BBM-Most (if not all) airlines already have this. I am surprised the author is unaware. Lufthansa CEO was discussing their program yesterday. These programs for reporting a colleague or self reporting about a personal problem, challenge or other issue have been around a long time.

Hmmm ... then maybe Australia does not have the dob-in-a-mate reporting yet, as the person who stated this is the chairman of Strategic Aviation Solutions, analyst Neil Hansford, in my country.

Emirates, do you know if we have specific confidential reporting on pilot colleagues who are having issues?

Seems that we don't have a few things ... like 2 people in the cockpit at all times. Bit of a worry. :scared:

 

[gregjrichards]

Did we know this already? It seems that the 'significant clue' boils down to one piece of paper, which they have sent for testing.


"German media is also reporting that police are investigating one particular piece of paper which they believe holds clues to Lubitz’s horrific actions."

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...t-andreas-lubitz/story-fnizu68q-1227280471225

I wonder what the testing could be handwriting analysis? Maybe he left a note admiting or planning what he had done and why but not a suicide note.

 

[emirates1957]

Curious if there is a toilet outside the cabin or is there one in the back of the plane.

Both.

 

[SophieRose]

If this is Europe time then its in 35 minutes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/28/world/europe/germanwings-crash-andreas-lubitz.html?_r=0

Prosecutors in Düsseldorf planned to hold a news conference around 12 p.m. to provide an update on their investigation.