Germany/Portugal - Christian Brueckner, 27 @ time of 1st crime (2004), charged with sexual assault crimes, Praia de Rocha, Portugal. #4

[RichardKimble]

Actually, we don't know if the judge picked up on it. I haven't read anywhere that this was the case. The defense might have but I haven't read that the judge did. Eta Well 5 years is 5 years. It is different being in your 40s and in your 50s into how you judge people's age. But this is all speculation. Perhaps we need someone with knowledge of age perception to chip in.

The Welt paper had this it a paywall article.

For example, the estimated age of the witnesses for a victim differ widely.

 

[UK Girl]

Actually, we don't know if the judge picked up on it. I haven't read anywhere that this was the case. The defense might have but I haven't read that the judge did. Eta Well 5 years is 5 years. It is different being in your 40s and in your 50s into how you judge people's age. But this is all speculation. Perhaps we need someone with knowledge of age perception to chip in.

we do know the Judge questioned discrepancies in his testimony last week

 

[C.greek]

L

Handed over by whom ?

Ms or HeB

 

[C.greek]

we do know the Judge questioned discrepancies in his testimony last week

Yes but we don't know what kind of discrepancies and of course she should have questioned any and all discrepancies.

 

[C.greek]

The Welt paper had this it a paywall article.

For example, the estimated age of the witnesses for a victim differ widely.

Sorry i should have added: is that between MS and HeB testimonies or between the same person's testimonies?

Yes but how much, in which age groups? There are plenty of studies on age perception based on own-age bias- so I guess we should have that cleared before deciding on what constitutes a discrepancy

 

[RichardKimble]

Yes but we don't know what kind of discrepancies and of course she should have questioned any and all discrepancies.

For example, the witnesses' estimated ages for one victim vary widely. It also remained unclear whether the woman in the video spoke Italian or English. When asked by the judge, the investigator stated that no further questions had been asked about this.

Prozess gegen Christian B.: Ermittlungsarbeit kritisiert - WELT

Dem auch im Fall Maddie Verdächtigen Christian B. werden in einem anderen Verfahren Vergewaltigungen und sexueller Missbrauch vorgeworfen. An den Ermittlungen gibt es im Prozess aber reichlich Kritik.

www.welt.de

 

[C.greek]

So i

For example, the witnesses' estimated ages for one victim vary widely. It also remained unclear whether the woman in the video spoke Italian or English. When asked by the judge, the investigator stated that no further questions had been asked about this.

Prozess gegen Christian B.: Ermittlungsarbeit kritisiert - WELT

Dem auch im Fall Maddie Verdächtigen Christian B. werden in einem anderen Verfahren Vergewaltigungen und sexueller Missbrauch vorgeworfen. An den Ermittlungen gibt es im Prozess aber reichlich Kritik.

www.welt.de

I cannot see the article, is this between MS's and HeB's testimonies? Because I noticed the plural form in withesses'. If that is so, I don't think there is much to discuss, as again age perception is a big field in Neuroscience and psychology that we have nothing i believe to add. Jmo

Eta unless one of us is an expert in this. I call in ignorance

 

[Davieson]

L

Ms or HeB

I thought it was said that thw tapes were destroyed .

 

[UK Girl]

Yes but we don't know what kind of discrepancies and of course she should have questioned any and all discrepancies.

I think her concern was why didnt the prosecution question the discrepancies

 

[C.greek]

I thought it was said that thw tapes were destroyed .

My question was purely hypothetical as in what do you do with illegally obtained incriminating material

 

[RichardKimble]

So i

I cannot see the article, is this between MS's and HeB's testimonies? Because I noticed the plural form in withesses'. If that is so, I don't think there is much to discuss, as again age perception is a big field in Neuroscience and psychology that we have nothing i believe to add. Jmo

Eta unless one of us is an expert in this. I call in ignorance

Yes it's HeB and MS.

 

[C.greek]

Yes it's HeB and MS.

In that case my opinion above still holds.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Does the age perception thing work in both directions? The young German girl is listed on the charge sheet as “at least 14” so technically she could be 18. This changes the crime significantly.

IIRC, MS originally described the older victim as being aged 65. The recent reports say 40-60.

In any event, there are inconsistencies between what HeB and MS have said over the years and the judge knows it. When TS, the BKA investigator, took the stand he said that they did not push the questioning further because of MS’s inability to maintain the facts… troubling IMO.

 

[misty48]

Does the age perception thing work in both directions? The young German girl is listed on the charge sheet as “at least 14” so technically she could be 18. This changes the crime significantly.

IIRC, MS originally described the older victim as being aged 65. The recent reports say 40-60.

In any event, there are inconsistencies between what HeB and MS have said over the years and the judge knows it. When TS, the BKA investigator, took the stand he said that they did not push the questioning further because of MS’s inability to maintain the facts… troubling IMO.

Perhaps the judge should establish the order in which the 2 witnesses viewed the alleged rapes on the tape and the duration of each. It's entirely possible HeB & MS viewed 3 rapes between them, with the one featuring the young girl tied to a post being the only excerpt they both saw.

 

[Hygge]

Perhaps the judge should establish the order in which the 2 witnesses viewed the alleged rapes on the tape and the duration of each. It's entirely possible HeB & MS viewed 3 rapes between them, with the one featuring the young girl tied to a post being the only excerpt they both saw.

That was already cleared in court in the DM case
„The court considered his statement to be credible and concluded that the two witnesses had seen different video sequences: The first witness saw the rape of the older woman and the beginning of the part in which the teenager had been tied to the beam. And the second witness saw the entire sequence with the teenager - and then only the Italian-speaking woman with the 45 to 50-year-old woman. The court considered it impossible that the first witness had come up with the rape of the elderly woman - because the details were so similar to the process of the rape of the 72-year-old American woman, for whom Christian B. was convicted.“

Urteil gegen Christian B.: Zeugen berichteten von drei weiteren Vergewaltigungen

2019 wurde Christian B. wegen der Vergewaltigung einer 72 Jahre alten Frau in Portugal verurteilt. Das Urteil enthält klare Hinweise darauf, dass er nicht nur einmal, sondern mehrfach nach einem brutalen Muster Frauen vergewaltigt haben könnte.

www.faz.net

 

[misty48]

That was already cleared in court in the DM case
„The court considered his statement to be credible and concluded that the two witnesses had seen different video sequences: The first witness saw the rape of the older woman and the beginning of the part in which the teenager had been tied to the beam. And the second witness saw the entire sequence with the teenager - and then only the Italian-speaking woman with the 45 to 50-year-old woman. The court considered it impossible that the first witness had come up with the rape of the elderly woman - because the details were so similar to the process of the rape of the 72-year-old American woman, for whom Christian B. was convicted.“

Urteil gegen Christian B.: Zeugen berichteten von drei weiteren Vergewaltigungen

2019 wurde Christian B. wegen der Vergewaltigung einer 72 Jahre alten Frau in Portugal verurteilt. Das Urteil enthält klare Hinweise darauf, dass er nicht nur einmal, sondern mehrfach nach einem brutalen Muster Frauen vergewaltigt haben könnte.

www.faz.net

Thank you, Hygge. That report reflects the wording in the trial document which I have seen.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Thank you, Hygge. That report reflects the wording in the trial document which I have seen.

Any chance you could share the article via pm? Please.

 

[C.greek]

That was already cleared in court in the DM case
„The court considered his statement to be credible and concluded that the two witnesses had seen different video sequences: The first witness saw the rape of the older woman and the beginning of the part in which the teenager had been tied to the beam. And the second witness saw the entire sequence with the teenager - and then only the Italian-speaking woman with the 45 to 50-year-old woman. The court considered it impossible that the first witness had come up with the rape of the elderly woman - because the details were so similar to the process of the rape of the 72-year-old American woman, for whom Christian B. was convicted.“

Urteil gegen Christian B.: Zeugen berichteten von drei weiteren Vergewaltigungen

2019 wurde Christian B. wegen der Vergewaltigung einer 72 Jahre alten Frau in Portugal verurteilt. Das Urteil enthält klare Hinweise darauf, dass er nicht nur einmal, sondern mehrfach nach einem brutalen Muster Frauen vergewaltigt haben könnte.

www.faz.net

That is very interesting! Thank you for clearing it up. No inconsistencies whatsoever between the witnesses regarding the content of the videos. The inconsistencies and the reference to dementia then must have been related to whether they talked to each other. Nothing to do with their testimony as to the videos.

 

[C.greek]

You are presenting your own interpretation here. From the botched translations here, the BKA investigator said the more you ask the more inconsistencies will surface since the event happened so long ago. This is different from admitting MS could not retain the facts. Jmo

 

[Denis R Tandib]

You are presenting your own interpretation here. From the botched translations here, the BKA investigator said the more you ask the more inconsistencies will surface since the event happened so long ago. This is different from admitting MS could not retain the facts. Jmo

BIB, specifically in relation to MS when responding to why the inconsistencies hadn’t been questioned further.

Do you think investigators should stop questioning witnesses for fear that the statements may get worse?