Gilgo Beach LISK Serial Killer, Rex Heuermann, charged with 6 murders, July 2023 #15

[iamshadow21]

The idea of putting him in Codis is to link him to other unsolved crimes.

Im asking if im correct in the understanding that MTDNA from other crime scenes, and RHs MtDNA, would not be allowed in Codis. Would that mean that he wouldnt be matched up to other hair samples unless LE used recent technology to extract Nuclear DNA from them?

If there are older cases with only mtDNA or blood typing on file, then yes, they would have to attempt more modern testing to enter them into CODIS for comparison to a full nuclear profile. That is my understanding.

The reason we have an arrest for Sandra is because they tested the DNA found on her to try and see if it was Bittrolff's, as they suspected she was killed by him. They got a full profile, and it wasn't. Knowing RH was living in the area and was an adult at the time, they were able to compare that evidence with his DNA, and it was a match twice over (RH and the unnamed housemate).

That wasn't through CODIS, though, since RH's sample is not in CODIS yet, as he is preconviction. It would have been direct comparison.

MOO

 

[DS2021]

That wasn't through CODIS, though, since RH's sample is not in CODIS yet, as he is preconviction. It would have been direct comparison

Im talking about post conviction, thats all

 

[eishish]

I read yesterday that RH was going to be charged with Valerie Mack's murder this week, but now I can't find it, so it may be totally false.

 

[Ruminations]

If there are older cases with only mtDNA or blood typing on file, then yes, they would have to attempt more modern testing to enter them into CODIS for comparison to a full nuclear profile. That is my understanding.

The reason we have an arrest for Sandra is because they tested the DNA found on her to try and see if it was Bittrolff's, as they suspected she was killed by him. They got a full profile, and it wasn't. Knowing RH was living in the area and was an adult at the time, they were able to compare that evidence with his DNA, and it was a match twice over (RH and the unnamed housemate).

That wasn't through CODIS, though, since RH's sample is not in CODIS yet, as he is preconviction. It would have been direct comparison.

MOO

Right. And the female who lived with him around that time, be it his ex-wife or ex-cohabitating friend, presumably voluntarily provided a cheek swab.

MOO

 

[snarast]

NYS got around the warrant issue by going through garbage bins and getting informal DNA samples that could be used to further the investigation ahead of getting court permission to demand a cheek swab from Rex.

(NYS got DNA from AE voluntarily, but not until Rex was arrested. To avoid tipping the family off, family DNA was also surreptitiously collected.)

In theory, state y can go to state x and surveil a suspect and collect DNA legally, such as from garbage cans.

In addition, state y could see if an adult would give dna voluntarily...some suspects might do so to clear their names.

But otherwise state y has to meet its own municipalities' rules for requesting something gain intrusively, like on a search warrant, then have state x willing to give it up per its rules.

One thing that comes to mind is, would it have been kosher for NYS to gift discarded pizza crust? Before they knew it was going to be a match? Just give a few states' detectives some untested saliva and images of a suspect discarding them? Or, would that be trying to circumvent the privacy laws? (One reason NY would NOT do so would be it increases the chances of a leak, which could cause justice to never occur, and it creates a possibility that another state arrests first, which could be embarrassing.)

MOO

Right. The feds must be involved in this decision making. Maybe they were there and grabbed a piece of crust in 2023. But I don’t know the details there obviously.

The theoretical example was for RH but it could also apply to any serial killer - especially those unidentified.

I sure hope they have a nation wide proto-CODIS for unsubs whose DNA has turned up on murder scenes. And this should involve the understanding that transfer-DNA may play a big role as well. As the RH/VH/AE-debacle has illustrated.

If you don’t mine that data before kingdom come, there is no chance of stopping the next Israel Keyes for one thing…

 

[sds71]

Asa Ellerup, Heuermann’s estranged wife, also appeared in court with their family dog, who was recently registered as a service dog. She did not speak to reporters.

“There’s definitely going to be a motion at some point in time to sever the [trials for the] six individuals,” Michael Brown, Heuermann’s defense attorney, told reporters. “The most recent two were victims of the indictment, specifically Costilla and Taylor, I know strategically why the prosecutor wanted to put them in, because the more the merrier, but they have nothing to do with the others. The MO is different, the way that the murders allegedly were carried out were different, where those bodies were deposited or left is completely different. So as we know here about these Gilgo Beach murders, those two have nothing to do with this.”

Brown continues to assert that there are other suspects in the case, discussing an unnamed suspect from Massapequa Park with the initials “WH,” and another suspect he claims to have seen pole camera footage of.
Brown also said a motion for a change of venue for the trial is on the table.

“The former DA in this county was prepared to move forward with an arrest of this suspect who now is so significant because that’s the belt,” Brown said. “It’s my client’s grandmother’s uncle’s neighbor and therefore it’s tied to my client. There were a solid 30 points of evidence against WH. The sole reason that they decided not to charge WH is because there’s an overlap in phone calls – who has personal phone and this burner phone. So because people can’t have two phones on at the same time, WH has been eliminated as a suspect.”

Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney appeared to welcome Brown’s suggestion of staggered trials.

“I think that’s a motion that defense in all likelihood will explore,” Tierney said. “I think if you look at those reasons why you would want to try these cases together, obviously that is going to be something that the defense is going to look at and make the appropriate decision.”

Tierney also added that Heuermann remains a suspect in the 2000 murder of Valerie Mack, whose partial remains were found then in Manorville in 2000 and in 2011 near Gilgo Beach, similar to Taylor.

Suspected Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Rex Heuermann May Seek Separate Trials For Multiple Murders

Suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann may seek separate trials for the six murders he is currently charged with, according to his defense attorney.

www.longislandpress.com

 

[Ruminations]

Right. The feds must be involved in this decision making. Maybe they were there and grabbed a piece of crust in 2023. But I don’t know the details there obviously.

The theoretical example was for RH but it could also apply to any serial killer - especially those unidentified.

I sure hope they have a nation wide proto-CODIS for unsubs whose DNA has turned up on murder scenes. And this should involve the understanding that transfer-DNA may play a big role as well. As the RH/VH/AE-debacle has illustrated.

Otherwise there is no chance of catching the next Israel Keyes for one thing…

I think I understand the hesitancy to compel individuals to give their DNA just because they are arrested.

But, especially in 2010, I wouldn't see why their can't be a crime scene database, which gives certain DNA sequences so it can be compared if the same DNA, perhaps anonymous DNA is found at multiple crime scenes. Now, DNA can be found in such tiny samples, it is getting to the point that a persons DNA on a scene is meaningful, but less so as it can get transferred so easily. There is a big difference between drops of blood and flakes of skin or hair. The later can take long trips.

Yet, finding out that someone's DNA was at multiple crime scenes can help narrow a suspect pool...the person had to be at one location around a certain time, and at another around a separate certain time. There have to be many fewer potential suspects who could have been at both.

It's helpful just as it was helpful that the Gilgo suspect had phones very frequently in both the Penn Station area and the Massepequa Park area.

MOO

 

[eishish]

Not true

Saw the video, removed. Imo it has been discussed by Asa attorney already, so theres that. Re the sept date, who knows

 

[Ruminations]

Asa Ellerup, Heuermann’s estranged wife, also appeared in court with their family dog, who was recently registered as a service dog. She did not speak to reporters.

“There’s definitely going to be a motion at some point in time to sever the [trials for the] six individuals,” Michael Brown, Heuermann’s defense attorney, told reporters. “The most recent two were victims of the indictment, specifically Costilla and Taylor, I know strategically why the prosecutor wanted to put them in, because the more the merrier, but they have nothing to do with the others. The MO is different, the way that the murders allegedly were carried out were different, where those bodies were deposited or left is completely different. So as we know here about these Gilgo Beach murders, those two have nothing to do with this.”

Brown continues to assert that there are other suspects in the case, discussing an unnamed suspect from Massapequa Park with the initials “WH,” and another suspect he claims to have seen pole camera footage of.
Brown also said a motion for a change of venue for the trial is on the table.

“The former DA in this county was prepared to move forward with an arrest of this suspect who now is so significant because that’s the belt,” Brown said. “It’s my client’s grandmother’s uncle’s neighbor and therefore it’s tied to my client. There were a solid 30 points of evidence against WH. The sole reason that they decided not to charge WH is because there’s an overlap in phone calls – who has personal phone and this burner phone. So because people can’t have two phones on at the same time, WH has been eliminated as a suspect.”

Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney appeared to welcome Brown’s suggestion of staggered trials.

“I think that’s a motion that defense in all likelihood will explore,” Tierney said. “I think if you look at those reasons why you would want to try these cases together, obviously that is going to be something that the defense is going to look at and make the appropriate decision.”

Tierney also added that Heuermann remains a suspect in the 2000 murder of Valerie Mack, whose partial remains were found then in Manorville in 2000 and in 2011 near Gilgo Beach, similar to Taylor.

Suspected Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Rex Heuermann May Seek Separate Trials For Multiple Murders

Suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann may seek separate trials for the six murders he is currently charged with, according to his defense attorney.

www.longislandpress.com

Interesting that Brown is suggesting that the most defendable murder charge is Maureen, because of the belt and the disgraced Spota's suspect.

Brown nearly drew a circle around the other suspect...his client's grandmothers uncle with the initials WH. His client does tend to have moderately large families in his tree, but I'm sure that exact person is already being discussed on some gossiping corner of the interwebs.

I do hope that the trials are severed, if for no other reason than as discussed above; a conviction can get DNA into CODIS. I don't want any victims forgotten or back burnered, but especially as Rex appeared to be somewhat flexible in his approach to his alleged murders, it could be a bit overwhelming for a jury to have too many dissimilar murders to sort out.

On the other hand, the juries can only consider the evidence at trial, and going one victim at a time, for example, could make what would be a pattern for multiple charges appear to be a coincidence in one charge. So that's a reason for multiple victim trial.

MOO

 

[CuriousCricket]

I think Brown is smart to be discussing separate trials for each crime. That way the juries may not learn of DNA matching his family members in each case. The fact of hair from multiple people in his household in all the crimes is very compelling. Separating the crimes might lessen the impact.

Suspected Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Rex Heuermann May Seek Separate Trials For Multiple Murders

Suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann may seek separate trials for the six murders he is currently charged with, according to his defense attorney.

www.longislandpress.com

 

[iamshadow21]

Im talking about post conviction, thats all

Then the first paragraph of my last reply applies.

MOO

 

[snarast]

I think I understand the hesitancy to compel individuals to give their DNA just because they are arrested.

We have two different things:

1. Match sample to suspect. Ok privacy is an issue.
2. Match unsub samples from different victims.

In 2 you don’t invade someone’s privacy because a name isn’t attached to the sample. But it might still match many other crime scenes.

And naturally you want to include metadata (info of location etc). Especially with touch DNA.

 

[CuriousCricket]

Snipped for focus: “The former DA in this county was prepared to move forward with an arrest of this suspect who now is so significant because that’s the belt,” Brown said. “It’s my client’s grandmother’s uncle’s neighbor and therefore it’s tied to my client. There were a solid 30 points of evidence against WH. The sole reason that they decided not to charge WH is because there’s an overlap in phone calls – who has personal phone and this burner phone. So because people can’t have two phones on at the same time, WH has been eliminated as a suspect.”

Suspected Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Rex Heuermann May Seek Separate Trials For Multiple Murders

Suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann may seek separate trials for the six murders he is currently charged with, according to his defense attorney.

www.longislandpress.com

I wonder if not only were the two phones on -- or engaged in conversation, perhaps? -- but in two very different locations? Would that mean that LE can place the busy burner phone and RH in the same location?

 

[CuriousCricket]

We have two different things:

1. Match sample to suspect. Ok privacy is an issue.
2. Match unsub samples from different victims.

In 2 you don’t invade someone’s privacy because a name isn’t attached to the sample. But it might still match many other crime scenes.

Therefore, if the database is national, or international, LE could quickly pick up on crimes committed by the same person in different locations. I'm seeing the possibility of this type of database as very important since some cross-country killers escaped detection for decades by moving around.

 

[iamshadow21]

Interesting that Brown is suggesting that the most defendable murder charge is Maureen, because of the belt and the disgraced Spota's suspect.

Brown nearly drew a circle around the other suspect...his client's grandmothers uncle with the initials WH. His client does tend to have moderately large families in his tree, but I'm sure that exact person is already being discussed on some gossiping corner of the interwebs.

I do hope that the trials are severed, if for no other reason than as discussed above; a conviction can get DNA into CODIS. I don't want any victims forgotten or back burnered, but especially as Rex appeared to be somewhat flexible in his approach to his alleged murders, it could be a bit overwhelming for a jury to have too many dissimilar murders to sort out.

On the other hand, the juries can only consider the evidence at trial, and going one victim at a time, for example, could make what would be a pattern for multiple charges appear to be a coincidence in one charge. So that's a reason for multiple victim trial.

MOO

Yeah, especially as AE's DNA is on Maureen. Are they suggesting she has some connection with this supposed other suspect? Because I don't see how her hair ends up on Maureen otherwise.

Occam's razor says no. RH is the connection. His DNA and the DNA of his daughter is on the other GB4 victims, and the belt has initials that match the initials of a direct paternal relative of his. That combined with the geographic data...

An alternate suspect is a big lot of nothing.

I don't favour severing, personally... I think there is a pattern of behaviour that can be shown by presenting the cases together.

MOO

 

[eishish]

Yeah, especially as AE's DNA is on Maureen. Are they suggesting she has some connection with this supposed other suspect? Because I don't see how her hair ends up on Maureen otherwise.

Occam's razor says no. RH is the connection. His DNA and the DNA of his daughter is on the other GB4 victims, and the belt has initials that match the initials of a direct paternal relative of his. That combined with the geographic data...

An alternate suspect is a big lot of nothing.

I don't favour severing, personally... I think there is a pattern of behaviour that can be shown by presenting the cases together.

MOO

To do it one by one is interesting. Just wish he would spill the beans, but with a conviction and a codis typein, his presumed crime total will come up. A matter of time and caution

 

[iamshadow21]

To do it one by one is interesting. Just wish he would spill the beans, but with a conviction and a codis typein, his presumed crime total will come up. A matter of time and caution

Only if
A) every crime he committed left a DNA trace
B) that DNA is in a modern format (nuclear), not something like mtDNA or even something older like blood typing
C) if not, there is enough of a sample remaining for modern testing
and D) that information has been entered into CODIS for comparison.

There are plenty of cases that aren't going to have all of those things. And just because they don't, doesn't mean he didn't do them. They'd just have to build a case against him using things other than DNA.

MOO

 

[lightofmine99]

It has been a while since I've checked in on this case.

It is my understanding that the "Gilgo Four" is now officially known as the "Gilgo Six." Is this correct?

 

[eishish]

Only if
A) every crime he committed left a DNA trace
B) that DNA is in a modern format (nuclear), not something like mtDNA or even something older like blood typing
C) if not, there is enough of a sample remaining for modern testing
and D) that information has been entered into CODIS for comparison.

There are plenty of cases that aren't going to have all of those things. And just because they don't, doesn't mean he didn't do them. They'd just have to build a case against him using things other than DNA.

MOO

And tragically is why wish he would give up deets. But not gonna happen. Yes, with what we have tackled and le, fbi feel he is the man for all charged with so far

 

[CuriousCricket]

Since RH's attorney was speaking of those phones, I've had a thought: Is my memory correct that after the taunting calls to Melissa's sister, photos of ?was it Times Square ? were obtained at the time the calls were made hoping to spot someone on the phone. Unfortunately, IIRC, the location was packed with people on the phone and there was no way to tell who the killer might be. NOW, though, with RH's size and shape being so distinctive, wouldn't it be fantastic evidence if the Taskforce has gone back to those photos to see if RH appears in them?