Grand Jury True Bills John & Patsy Discussion thread

[Rougelatete]

I'm a believer in the BDI theory and that JR and PR covered it up. The part that has always bothered me, however, was how much of JBR's hair was wrapped up in the garrote and yanked out of her head. It seems such a violent act that would take a good amount of force. Aside from those who believe an IDI, I'm wondering which of these scenarios you think explains that violent pulling out of the hair:

A) BR made the garrote and used it in his sexual abuse of JBR, which was violent enough to pull her hair out.

B) PR or JR made the garrote (possibly in an attempt to cover up BR's earlier, weaker attempts at asphyxiation) and in their fury at the situation or out of panic, pulled her hair out in the process.

C) JR or PR was the one sexually abusing JBR with a garrote and pulled her hair out in the process and caused the bash to the head (i.e. BR was not involved)

D) Other

 

[bettybaby00]

YUP. I even made a post about this issue a few weeks back. If JonBenet was killed by an intruder, the "campaign" to find her killer would be like nothing we have ever seen. Just think about how much effort and resources the Ramseys put into defending themselves, and consider if they put that into finding into their daughter's killer. Patsy would have definitely started a foundation, which would still be prominent today, maybe she would have served on the board of another one. John would be speaking at Congress to pass "JonBenet's Law" and would be a TV correspondent for true crime cases in 2013. Just think about all the connections and money they had, and imagine if the used them to actually find the intruder.

Considering what we know about the Ramseys, the fact that they have never gotten involved with the missing/murdered/abused children cause should be a big red flag. I'm actually surprised they didn't join one as a front...but if they did, it would cause a lot of controversy between members.

Yes, yes!!!!

Also jumping off your post.....you have to remember how quickly they lawyered up. We're talking hours after the body was found. They did it before LE even had the thought of considering them as suspects. Who does that?

I wish I still had Kolar's book... He outlines his investigative process once the IDI theory was debunked. Through it he considers not only hard evidence but also behaviors as well as motivations. his process pointed directly to family involvement. Also, he knows what happened with the GJ, no need for speculation, he was/is privy to that info.

 

[shefner]

And yet you contradicted yourself in the very next post.

Again, it matters naught what you or I would do. The question is would the Ramseys perpetuate an elaborate cover-up to 'protect' their remaining living offspring?

Sooooooooooo... if your conclusions are based upon years of evidential review, why would there be a need to even mention that Burke is not the responsible party because YOU would never perpetuate a cover-up?

I guess I'm getting lost in what you are saying. Call me ignorant.

I am simply stating what I would do....or perhaps others would probably do if confronted with a situation where one child killed another child. I don't know if Burke did this crime...but it seems that someone within that home killed JonBenet. Its looking like the parents did it...or Burke did it....and the parents covered it up.

What are you saying?

 

[BBB167893]

Especially Karr...LOL They would have had his head on a stake outside the front door if he were the intruder...

I just don't understand, especially now, how anyone can believe there was an intruder...And that the Ramseys would cover for said intruder.

I'll go further than that, tezi. Even if he WASN'T the intruder, they would have railroaded Karr into prison if they thought they could have gotten away with it. And he was only too happy to help. But in the ed, they weren't even bright enough to frame the guy who confessed.

 

[BaileyandBella]

SNIPPED

>>>>BR hit her in the face with a golf club once before<<

Really?? I have not heard this before. WOW

 

[ElleElle]

I'm a believer in the BDI theory and that JR and PR covered it up. The part that has always bothered me, however, was how much of JBR's hair was wrapped up in the garrote and yanked out of her head. It seems such a violent act that would take a good amount of force. Aside from those who believe an IDI, I'm wondering which of these scenarios you think explains that violent pulling out of the hair:

A) BR made the garrote and used it in his sexual abuse of JBR, which was violent enough to pull her hair out.

B) PR or JR made the garrote (possibly in an attempt to cover up BR's earlier, weaker attempts at asphyxiation) and in their fury at the situation or out of panic, pulled her hair out in the process.

C) JR or PR was the one sexually abusing JBR with a garrote and pulled her hair out in the process and caused the bash to the head (i.e. BR was not involved)

D) Other

BBM~ I believe B. I do not believe Burke was involved in any way shape or form. He may have witnessed the abuse on a couple of occasions, but that's it. He was 9 years old! I don't know of any 9 year old boys being sexual, except maybe for exploration with his little sister.

 

[Linda7NJ]

BBM~ I believe B. I do not believe Burke was involved in any way shape or form. He may have witnessed the abuse on a couple of occasions, but that's it. He was 9 years old! I don't know of any 9 year old boys being sexual, except maybe for exploration with his little sister.

Do a google search. 9 yr olds have raped at knife point, they've also murdered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[Chelly]

BBM~ I believe B. I do not believe Burke was involved in any way shape or form. He may have witnessed the abuse on a couple of occasions, but that's it. He was 9 years old! I don't know of any 9 year old boys being sexual, except maybe for exploration with his little sister.

Believe what you want. However, autopsy reports showed JBR's hymen was severely eroded. Digital penetration or insertion of a object can cause that. Maybe the exploration went too far and JBR cried out or tried to get away, threatening "to tell".

 

[shefner]

Believe what you want. However, autopsy reports showed JBR's hymen was severely eroded. Digital penetration or insertion of a object can cause that. Maybe the exploration went too far and JBR cried out or tried to get away, threatening "to tell".

Chelly, Do you think that PR or JR knew of ongoing sexual molestation by BR? Or that this was discovered the night of JBR's death?
I just can't grasp it all. I mean....even though I accept these kind of these happen it simply throughs my mind and heart into a tizzy.

 

[BaileyandBella]

Maybe the prior molestation was by the parents.

Could this case be re-opened and if so, how would that come about it? TIA

 

[ElleElle]

Believe what you want. However, autopsy reports showed JBR's hymen was severely eroded. Digital penetration or insertion of a object can cause that. Maybe the exploration went too far and JBR cried out or tried to get away, threatening "to tell".

You think PR/JR were trying to protect BR?

I don't believe a 9 year old has the intelligence to bind and stangle a child.

I truly believe believe BR was sleeping that night when a "sexual fantasy" went bad quick. Just MOO.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly, Do you think that PR or JR knew of ongoing sexual molestation by BR? Or that this was discovered the night of JBR's death?
I just can't grasp it all. I mean....even though I accept these kind of these happen it simply throughs my mind and heart into a tizzy.

I think the R's knew JBR was being sexually molested. The Fleets most likely knew something was happening as well. There is lots of background information available to suggest this.

 

[SyraKelly]

I think the R's knew JBR was being sexually molested. The Fleets most likely knew something was happening as well. There is lots of background information available to suggest this.

I agree Chelly..but I think Pasty knew a lot more of the SA,b/c she is the one who took JB to the doctors the most(That I have read)- as it mostly mothers who do..not saying fathers don't take kids to the doctors,but its mostly mothers.All JMO

 

[Chelly]

You think PR/JR were trying to protect BR?

I don't believe a 9 year old has the intelligence to bind and stangle a child.

I truly believe believe BR was sleeping that night when a "sexual fantasy" went bad quick. Just MOO.

Let's assume the sex game went bad, JBR tried to escape, BR smashed her on the head or maybe squeezed her neck until she lost consciousness. JR and PR hear the commotion, see what's happened, send BR to bed. JBR looks dead and can't be revived, so they stage a crime scene with ligature, etc.

 

[ElleElle]

Let's assume the sex game went bad, JBR tried to escape, BR smashed her on the head or maybe squeezed her neck until she lost consciousness. JR and PR hear the commotion, see what's happened, send BR to bed. JBR looks dead and can't be revived, so they stage a crime scene with ligature, etc.

That is a possible theory. Also, the changing of the clothes. I still don't get the Size 12 underwear on JBR? Was that not her size?? :scared:

 

[SyraKelly]

That is a possible theory. Also, the changing of the clothes. I still don't get the Size 12 underwear on JBR? Was that not her size?? :scared:

No they were not her size..she was 6 and the undies were size 12


This is a great website for information about JB's case

http://www.acandyrose.com/

 

[Chelly]

That is a possible theory. Also, the changing of the clothes. I still don't get the Size 12 underwear on JBR? Was that not her size?? :scared:

Follow is IMO....
1. The size 12's were what were at hand.
2. JBR's clean underwear had been packed up and were on the plane for the trip to MI and subsequent Disney cruise
3. The underwear left behind were fecal stained.
4. JR redressed JBR while PR was writing ransom note, placing longjohns over the size 12's. Maybe at that time he thought the underwear size was no big deal.

 

[tezi]

I'll go further than that, tezi. Even if he WASN'T the intruder, they would have railroaded Karr into prison if they thought they could have gotten away with it. And he was only too happy to help. But in the ed, they weren't even bright enough to frame the guy who confessed.

SuperDave, you brought up something else that I have been thinking about. When Karr "confessed," remember John Ramsey saying something about how he may feel sorry for him, due to the media attention? It was something like that, because I remember thinking to myself, "WTF!"

If this is the guy you were told murdered your daughter, would you feel bad for him because of the media attention? Seriously....

I just can't wrap my head around the Ramseys actions or lack of action, which is probably a good thing.

 

[Frigga]

SuperDave, you brought up something else that I have been thinking about. When Karr "confessed," remember John Ramsey saying something about how he may feel sorry for him, due to the media attention? It was something like that, because I remember thinking to myself, "WTF!"

If this is the guy you were told murdered your daughter, would you feel bad for him because of the media attention? Seriously....

I just can't wrap my head around the Ramseys actions or lack of action, which is probably a good thing.

Here it is Tezi, from The Boulder Daily Camera:

In an interview to be broadcast tonight, Ramsey voices empathy for the man arrested but later released after he confessed to slaying 6-year-old pageant queen JonBenet Ramsey in her Boulder home.


"After a while, he was so abused and vilified and convicted in the media that I started to feel sorry for the guy," Ramsey told "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty in his first interview since his wife Patsy's death and Karr's arrest.

link: http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_13068611

Come on... honestly- the only reason someone would say this is if they knew for certain the person (no matter how sick and twisted) was innocent!

 

[tezi]

I just read SG's piece in the "Daily Camera."

I am so angry right now I could scream.

He knew about the indictments in 2009, when he took office. That means Lacy knew about them, there is no way she didn't because SG inherited them when he took office.

So, Lacy knew, and still brought Karr back, still did her little exoneration thing with John, still went after Santa Bill, and countless other people, all the while KNOWING the GJ had issued indictments on two of the counts against each parent.

And since Lacy knew, I would bet my boots that Haddon and Wood knew also! Just business as usual....

Yep, John, the GJ sure did vote to indict you and Patsy. Another of one of your lies has been uncovered. But, Hunter and Lacy made sure that you were never charged. How the fark do you live with yourself? You have destroyed countless lives, just so people can live with the illusion that you are "innocent." Yes, you are innocent, innocent of telling the truth.


I am just ready to be sick, all over again.