Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, 11 May 2021 #2 *ARREST*

[mrjitty]

I think the whole narrative speaks to gaslighting Caroline.

Interesting.

02c

 

[everybodhi]

I always thought that therapists/psychologists mustn't get into personal relations with patients. Caroline was a patient not a child/daughter. It doesnt seem professional to me.

snipped
Babis and I are in constant communication

It is my understanding from what I’ve been reading, after a set number of sessions, (usually 4-10 at $100-$300 each) you use the techniques yourself, it’s supposed to give you power over your own mind, not create a dependency on a practitioner. “..hypnosis can actually teach people how to master their own states of awareness.”
It’s not unlike meditation, guided at first.
It began with an Austrian physician in the 1700’s, named “Mesmer”, which is where we got the word, “mesmerized”.

I found this interesting:

“Are there any risks associated with hypnotherapy?
Before considering hypnotherapy, you need a diagnosis from your doctor to know what needs to be treated. This is especially true if your condition is psychological (for example, a phobia or anxiety), and you should be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Without an accurate diagnosis, hypnotherapy could make your symptoms worse. Very rarely, hypnotherapy leads to the development of "false memories" made up by the unconscious mind; these are called confabulations.”
Hypnotherapy Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Revisiting Other Times In Your Life
Your therapist may decide to guide you in remembering times in your life that are pertinent to the problems you're facing. This wouldn't be possible if the therapist didn't work with you before the hypnotherapy session to learn about your life and the struggles you are currently facing. They might ask you to recall details of the setting, the people present, and the sensations you experienced during significant past events.
Hypnotherapy: Hoax Or Help? | Betterhelp

 

[Dotta]

It is my understanding from what I’ve been reading, after a set number of sessions, (usually 4-10 at $100-$300 each) you use the techniques yourself, it’s supposed to give you power over your own mind, not create a dependency on a practitioner. “..hypnosis can actually teach people how to master their own states of awareness.”
It’s not unlike meditation, guided at first.
It began with an Austrian physician in the 1700’s, named “Mesmer”, which is where we got the word, “mesmerized”.

I found this interesting:

“Are there any risks associated with hypnotherapy?
Before considering hypnotherapy, you need a diagnosis from your doctor to know what needs to be treated. This is especially true if your condition is psychological (for example, a phobia or anxiety), and you should be evaluated by a psychiatrist. Without an accurate diagnosis, hypnotherapy could make your symptoms worse. Very rarely, hypnotherapy leads to the development of "false memories" made up by the unconscious mind; these are called confabulations.”
Hypnotherapy Information | Mount Sinai - New York

Revisiting Other Times In Your Life
Your therapist may decide to guide you in remembering times in your life that are pertinent to the problems you're facing. This wouldn't be possible if the therapist didn't work with you before the hypnotherapy session to learn about your life and the struggles you are currently facing. They might ask you to recall details of the setting, the people present, and the sensations you experienced during significant past events.
Hypnotherapy: Hoax Or Help? | Betterhelp

"Problems that may respond to hypnotherapy: addictions". B's issues?

 

[Tortoise]

As I was looking for something else I came across this article from 21st May:

As he describes, he and his wife visited this doctor, in order to help and guide them, the young mother to overcome some problems she was facing, after the birth of her baby.

"Of course I knew the specific psychologist. My wife and I always went to her doctor's office until about Christmas. Any woman who has experienced it knows. It is difficult and the mother who is going through it needs love and help. Caroline was strong and moved on, a little with the help of me and the psychologist and a lot with the help of our daughter. "

The police, according to information, through the testimony of the psychologist, tried to find out if there was anything that bothered the 20-year-old woman and if this, in some way, could help the investigations."

Παρακολουθούσε και τον 33χρονο πιλότο η ψυχολόγος της Καρολάιν; - Η κατάθεση «κλειδί» στην υπόθεση | in.gr


And this was the article I was looking for, from 22nd May (11 days after the murder):


The 32-year-old pilot is annoyed
At the same time, the husband of 20-year-old Caroline wanted to put an end to the rumors and scenarios, which have been raging for the last few days, about what happened inside their house on Panagouli Street.

Speaking on the show "Light in the Tunnel", the 32-year-old seemed particularly annoyed by the report to the psychologist that his wife was visiting.

In a communication he had with Angeliki Nikolouli, among other things, he stated: "I really do not know who thought that the psychologist we went to after my wife gave birth had anything to do with the robbery. I have heard speculations and speculations, but that our psychologist will help to find the perpetrators, is by far the most invalid ".
Νέα μαρτυρία ξετυλίγει το κουβάρι της δολοφονίας της Καρολάιν - Τα καυτά ερωτήματα και η αντίδραση του πιλότου | in.gr



30th May:

"Asked about the last time [she] saw Caroline, [she] said: "I do not remember the exact date, the children had left for a trip at Easter, then we did not have time to talk, we could not see each other again."

Ψυχολόγος Καρολάιν: Μόνο τα καλύτερα έχω να πω για το ζευγάρι - Τι μου έλεγε η κοπέλα




I'm not sure who "the children" are that she refers to, does she mean Caroline and Babis? Easter was 2nd May, 9 days before the murder. It appears she is saying there was no time to see them in those 9 days. Surely she would know if she hadn't seen Caroline since Christmas, or maybe it's a poor translation of what the husband said, and it should be they started going to see the therapst since Christmas.

In the above report I think the annoyance is noteworthy because I haven't yet seen an expression of feelings towards the perpetrators, and I notice the heightened sensitivity (IMO, in the extended explanation) to Caroline having depression, and her progress.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

I can understand his annoyance. If he was treated for his own issues he might fear his deep secrets will become known to the public. Its nothing to be proud of. BUT if "issues" mean hazard/gambling that will tie to unpaid debts and mafia. And also paranoid secrecy about "money and a new house". MOO

 

[Dotta]

Re addiction. As a pilot B visited many places - maybe tourist destinations with casinos (legal or not).

 

[Winterbells]

Re addiction. As a pilot B visited many places - maybe tourist destinations with casinos (legal or not).

I'm not sure what B's actual job is, but was under the impression he's a helicopter flight instructor, no?

 

[tayaway]

I'm not sure what B's actual job is, but was under the impression he's a helicopter flight instructor, no?

He's a safety manager/helicopter pilot instructor for a Greek charter company. I'd include the link, but we're not supposed to sleuth people who are not suspects.

 

[Dotta]

I'm not sure what B's actual job is, but was under the impression he's a helicopter flight instructor, no?

Oh, but he is named in the press as a PILOT, no?

 

[Dotta]

He's a safety manager/helicopter pilot instructor for a Greek charter company. I'd include the link, but we're not supposed to sleuth people who are not suspects.

SAFETY manager????? Well, there is a Polish saying: A shoemaker doesn't wear shoes. How fitting!

 

[tayaway]

Oh, but he is named in the press as a PILOT, no?

Yes, he's a pilot, and as the years go by, he's acquired different skill sets including the job of training instructor. I don't know if he is currently piloting chartered flights, as he is not to be sleuthed here!

SAFETY manager????? Well, there is a Polish saying: A shoemaker doesn't wear shoes. How fitting!

We have a similar saying here in English: The shoemaker's kids go without shoes!

 

[Silverlinging89]

Hmm I am not sure that the simplest Occam's razor explanation is actually B and the therapist colluding to plant false memories and thoughts into Caroline's head and then murder her? That seems rather wild to me, with the evidence we have.

In South Africa, in Pretoria, home invasions were often deadly and it was not uncommon to have CCTV in all rooms for insurance purposes. Is there any way of finding out how homeowners in that part of Athens feel/how likely burglaries are, and if CCTV/other security is a common finding?

With respect to hypnotherapy, it is used for a wide range of trauma and anxiety issues, from post natal depression, to pain, and even believe it or not, traumatic flashbacks from childbirth (in the medical sense, where they are invasive and immersive enough to cause serious dysfunction in everyday life), which are more common that many realise. It does have some evidence for certain things, but the patient has to be a certain type of mind - some people it simply doesn't work on. Ongoing sessions are common and often take place over 12-18 months or as long as the client/patient finds it useful. I think if you had a client base of several hundred people, you won't remember the date you last saw someone, and people often book closer to the time or ad hoc if they can't plan their life out exactly. If someone asked me when I last did so-and-so's surgery I could probably be like yeah sometime before christmas/easter/my birthday etc, but wouldn't be like oh yeh, on the 7th July 2019.

Some outstanding questions for me

1. how common are home invasions in Athens
2. what are common home insurance terms for contents/home insurance in terms of door locks, CCTV etc
3. are there any other unsolved home invasions in the area, with similarly little physical evidence
4. have the suspicious vehicles been tracked and identified as truly suspicious or benign - if neighbours' cars easy to rule out, as mentioned upthread streets are often quiet around 5am ballpark, and there was a covid curfew in addition overnight, which may be why perps would choose that time to strike

 

[tayaway]

In today's written media coverage, an expert reflects on the lack of progress:

The Sun: This English language article quotes criminologist, Apostolos Lytras, who says 'Something is not right' about the case. In the same piece, The Sun repeats the official LE position on B: 'Cops have rejected any suggestion that the pilot, who was tied up and blindfolded throughout the ordeal, had any part in the crime.'

It ends with reference to C's 'therapist,' EM, "She has been providing information as to who else may have known about the large amount of cash in the house," said an insider with links to security forces. "Her knowledge of Caroline is intimate and very important."

How much info could she have? How long does it take to follow those leads? They interviewed her May 21 and yet the source said she's communicated with LE repeatedly.

The Toc picks up The Sun's story and runs with it: "Άν ήταν μια συνηθισμένη ληστεία, η υπόθεση θα έπρεπε να έχει λυθεί έως τώρα" είπε στη βρετανική εφημερίδα ο ποινικολόγος, Απόστολος Λύτρας. "Διαβάσαμε ότι δεν βρέθηκε DNA και αποτυπώματα, ότι τα στοιχεία είναι πολύ λίγα και παρόλαυτα θεωρούνται ερασιτέχνες εγκληματίες. Κάτι δεν πάει καλά" υπογράμμισε.

It's a quote from AL, who seems to be saying that there's something wrong with this case since LE have no DNA (AL's words, not mine), evidence,... but the perps were apparently amateur? It doesn't mention the 'therapist' or that B is not a suspect.

Both refer to 10 unnamed potential suspects, Greek and foreign, that may have committed C's murder.

The impatience to solve the case is relayed by other outlets, like Thema and Athens Mag, who do their own spin on The Sun's article.

 

[Dotta]

Hmm I am not sure that the simplest Occam's razor explanation is actually B and the therapist colluding to plant false memories and thoughts into Caroline's head and then murder her? That seems rather wild to me, with the evidence we have.

In South Africa, in Pretoria, home invasions were often deadly and it was not uncommon to have CCTV in all rooms for insurance purposes. Is there any way of finding out how homeowners in that part of Athens feel/how likely burglaries are, and if CCTV/other security is a common finding?

With respect to hypnotherapy, it is used for a wide range of trauma and anxiety issues, from post natal depression, to pain, and even believe it or not, traumatic flashbacks from childbirth (in the medical sense, where they are invasive and immersive enough to cause serious dysfunction in everyday life), which are more common that many realise. It does have some evidence for certain things, but the patient has to be a certain type of mind - some people it simply doesn't work on. Ongoing sessions are common and often take place over 12-18 months or as long as the client/patient finds it useful. I think if you had a client base of several hundred people, you won't remember the date you last saw someone, and people often book closer to the time or ad hoc if they can't plan their life out exactly. If someone asked me when I last did so-and-so's surgery I could probably be like yeah sometime before christmas/easter/my birthday etc, but wouldn't be like oh yeh, on the 7th July 2019.

Some outstanding questions for me

1. how common are home invasions in Athens
2. what are common home insurance terms for contents/home insurance in terms of door locks, CCTV etc
3. are there any other unsolved home invasions in the area, with similarly little physical evidence
4. have the suspicious vehicles been tracked and identified as truly suspicious or benign - if neighbours' cars easy to rule out, as mentioned upthread streets are often quiet around 5am ballpark, and there was a covid curfew in addition overnight, which may be why perps would choose that time to strike

I would be careful to compare home invasions in South Africa to Europe. Even Greek police stated that cruelty in this crime was exceptional. I wonder about the time. 4.20 am is usually a wake up call for certain jobs: bakers, bus drivers, etc and... pilots with scheduled morning flights. If robbers decided to strike a house with a family inside they could choose night time, darkness is their ally.

 

[Winterbells]

Hmm I am not sure that the simplest Occam's razor explanation is actually B and the therapist colluding to plant false memories and thoughts into Caroline's head and then murder her? That seems rather wild to me, with the evidence we have.

In South Africa, in Pretoria, home invasions were often deadly and it was not uncommon to have CCTV in all rooms for insurance purposes. Is there any way of finding out how homeowners in that part of Athens feel/how likely burglaries are, and if CCTV/other security is a common finding?

With respect to hypnotherapy, it is used for a wide range of trauma and anxiety issues, from post natal depression, to pain, and even believe it or not, traumatic flashbacks from childbirth (in the medical sense, where they are invasive and immersive enough to cause serious dysfunction in everyday life), which are more common that many realise. It does have some evidence for certain things, but the patient has to be a certain type of mind - some people it simply doesn't work on. Ongoing sessions are common and often take place over 12-18 months or as long as the client/patient finds it useful. I think if you had a client base of several hundred people, you won't remember the date you last saw someone, and people often book closer to the time or ad hoc if they can't plan their life out exactly. If someone asked me when I last did so-and-so's surgery I could probably be like yeah sometime before christmas/easter/my birthday etc, but wouldn't be like oh yeh, on the 7th July 2019.

Some outstanding questions for me

1. how common are home invasions in Athens
2. what are common home insurance terms for contents/home insurance in terms of door locks, CCTV etc
3. are there any other unsolved home invasions in the area, with similarly little physical evidence
4. have the suspicious vehicles been tracked and identified as truly suspicious or benign - if neighbours' cars easy to rule out, as mentioned upthread streets are often quiet around 5am ballpark, and there was a covid curfew in addition overnight, which may be why perps would choose that time to strike

Regarding the therapist not remembering for sure when CC's last session was, of course, yes, she wouldn't know off the top of her head, but by the time she did her interview, she'd had time to check her records.

 

[Silverlinging89]

I'm not for one second saying european home invasions are like living in Joburg etc because that would be stupid , I lived there and now in Europe, fences, armed response, guard dogs, but I'm pointing out that in areas where other deadly home invasions have happened (and they have happened in parts of Athens) maybe people are increasingly stressed about it, and the local culture changes.

I probably am too amateur to understand why someone would like to know the exact date they last saw someone? Like if any acquaintance passes away, do you look back to see when you last saw them? I'm sure she would have a record if the police wanted that much detail, which she could go back and refer to.

Anyway, going to return to this case in a few months, looks cold for now, and just seems endless re-iterations of the husband doing it, which police deny? Why do that if he is still a suspect? Very confusing! Have a good summer everybody, hope this gets solved soon <3

 

[Winterbells]

But the therapist isn’t an amateur. She has had professional training. And part of that training includes keeping records. She can see, easily, when she last saw CC. She wasn’t asked by some journalist when she was out shopping. This was an interview for publication. She knew she’d be asked ‘when did you last see CC?’ That would surely be one of the first questions. Why on earth would she say she can’t remember?
I’ll stop banging on about this now. I know it’s tedious and repetitive of me.

 

[pol100gk]

But the therapist isn’t an amateur. She has had professional training. And part of that training includes keeping records. She can see, easily, when she last saw CC. She wasn’t asked by some journalist when she was out shopping. This was an interview for publication. She knew she’d be asked ‘when did you last see CC?’ That would surely be one of the first questions. Why on earth would she say she can’t remember?
I’ll stop banging on about this now. I know it’s tedious and repetitive of me.

Maybe it would be a violation of medical privacy rights under Greek law? Maybe saying "I consulted my appointment book and this is the date I last saw her" is not okay while the more general stuff she says publicly is ok? After all, the "I warned her about mentioning the money or plan to build a house to other people" refers to private rather than professional conversations. Though she did make reference to what Caroline was being treated for so that wouldn't make sense either.

Either way, her behaviour doesn't come across as very professional or ethical. And incidentally, it has not been said anywhere that Caroline was being treated with hypnotherapy (I think). That's presumably not the only form of therapy on offer by the counselor.

My take on the case is that a lot of information being released by the press or police officers not directly involved in the case is sensationalist, embellished and speculative rather than fact and this is why we have so many different and changing accounts. This case is big news and therefore big money. Let's hope that the actual investigative team has the experience to handle this case well. If the husband is innocent, what is going on is beyond cruel. And it degrades Caroline to an object to profit from rather than a tragic murder victim taken just when her life really started.

 

[everybodhi]

Hmm I am not sure that the simplest Occam's razor explanation is actually B and the therapist colluding to plant false memories and thoughts into Caroline's head and then murder her? That seems rather wild to me, with the evidence we have.

In South Africa, in Pretoria, home invasions were often deadly and it was not uncommon to have CCTV in all rooms for insurance purposes. Is there any way of finding out how homeowners in that part of Athens feel/how likely burglaries are, and if CCTV/other security is a common finding?

With respect to hypnotherapy, it is used for a wide range of trauma and anxiety issues, from post natal depression, to pain, and even believe it or not, traumatic flashbacks from childbirth (in the medical sense, where they are invasive and immersive enough to cause serious dysfunction in everyday life), which are more common that many realise. It does have some evidence for certain things, but the patient has to be a certain type of mind - some people it simply doesn't work on. Ongoing sessions are common and often take place over 12-18 months or as long as the client/patient finds it useful. I think if you had a client base of several hundred people, you won't remember the date you last saw someone, and people often book closer to the time or ad hoc if they can't plan their life out exactly. If someone asked me when I last did so-and-so's surgery I could probably be like yeah sometime before christmas/easter/my birthday etc, but wouldn't be like oh yeh, on the 7th July 2019.

Some outstanding questions for me

1. how common are home invasions in Athens
2. what are common home insurance terms for contents/home insurance in terms of door locks, CCTV etc
3. are there any other unsolved home invasions in the area, with similarly little physical evidence
4. have the suspicious vehicles been tracked and identified as truly suspicious or benign - if neighbours' cars easy to rule out, as mentioned upthread streets are often quiet around 5am ballpark, and there was a covid curfew in addition overnight, which may be why perps would choose that time to strike

What is your “Occam’s razor” theory on why the hypnotist is giving media interviews during the investigation suggesting CC talking too much is how her murderer found out about the money?
I don’t think planting false memories in CC’s head is an issue at all since she’s dead and unfortunately cannot speak for herself nor identify her killer, not even with a trace of DNA normally found after such a brutal struggle like she endured.
The thing I found interesting, and linked to reputable sources, hypnotherapy is used to bring consciousness of past memories of important events and also false memories can be planted. I don’t suggest that happened to CC but I can see how this could effect a criminal investigation, for instance, investigators interviews, or someone taking a polygraph, could be done on a subject believing their own lies planted by a hypnotist. /Hypothetical and jmo
I’m curious to learn more about the idea of hypnotherapy being conducted for 12-18 months, especially constant sessions as this hypnotist says she is conducting with BA presently, as I cannot find any hypnotist sites supporting this, they even say you can do it too much so this has me confused.
Do you have a link so I can read more about the year or more long term constant sessions method of hypnosis?
They advertise that sessions are well structured and not infinite, downloading MP3’s is common for additional work without the hypnotist being present. They claim the change in thought patterns can last a lifetime, but clients who are not susceptible to hypnosis don’t become more susceptible with constant sessions. It either works or it doesn’t.
Regarding CCTV camera’s, I think the anomaly is that all of their memory sticks had been removed, making them useless while keeping large sums of cash in the home, including for theft insurance requirements, if such requirements exist.

 

[everybodhi]

Maybe it would be a violation of medical privacy rights under Greek law? Maybe saying "I consulted my appointment book and this is the date I last saw her" is not okay while the more general stuff she says publicly is ok? After all, the "I warned her about mentioning the money or plan to build a house to other people" refers to private rather than professional conversations. Though she did make reference to what Caroline was being treated for so that wouldn't make sense either.

Either way, her behaviour doesn't come across as very professional or ethical. And incidentally, it has not been said anywhere that Caroline was being treated with hypnotherapy (I think). That's presumably not the only form of therapy on offer by the counselor.

My take on the case is that a lot of information being released by the press or police officers not directly involved in the case is sensationalist, embellished and speculative rather than fact and this is why we have so many different and changing accounts. This case is big news and therefore big money. Let's hope that the actual investigative team has the experience to handle this case well. If the husband is innocent, what is going on is beyond cruel. And it degrades Caroline to an object to profit from rather than a tragic murder victim taken just when her life really started.

I am also very uncomfortable with anyone’s therapist, of any type, publicly revealing anything about a client’s personal and private sessions, but here we are.
Therapists are often the most trusted confidant in a persons life, you typically reveal things you don’t reveal to anyone else, your deepest secrets.
She said CC was a patient for post natal depression, both her and BA discussed her diagnosis and treatment in interviews, and BA is also her client but neither of them revealed his diagnosis, only that they are in “constant communication”. This is all in links in the thread but I don’t have time to search right now, I’ll look again later.
In the US, practicing as a psychologist comes under regulations by states, in California I know they require a doctorate but some states I think only require a BA, also there are state licensing exams.
I have no idea how the profession is regulated in Greece but her extensive hypnotist credentials are public and have been posted here.

Diploma of Clinical Hypnotherapist from N.G.H National Guilt of Hypnotists, Practitioner Certificate Diploma and Certified Consulting Hypnotist of N.G.H, Diploma of American Board of Hypnotherapy, Ericksonian Hypnotherapy Certificate από το Sussex Hypnotherapy Centre, Hypnotherapy and Hypnosis Diploma from Kew Academy, CTAA Certificate of Complementary Therapists Accredited Association, CPD/CEU Certificate of Hypnosis Practitioner Trainer from Transformation Academy, NLP Master of Neuro-Linguistic Program from the Academy of Modern Psychology, NLP Certificate Practitioner and Life Coach from Transformation Academy, Certificate for Psychology Personality & Certificate for Contribution of Psychology in Forensic Investigation & Certificate from Hypnosis features and Therapeutic Applications από National and Kapodistrian University.

She holds herself out as a "psychologist" but I don't see any degrees in psychology. I think hypnotherapist would be the better word; there are a lot of hypnotist and NLP certificates.

The quote above is from the English section of this listing:

Mylonopoulou Eleni Ψυχοθεραπευτής - Ψυχολόγος - Κλινικός Υπνοθεραπευτής

Here's a video interview (posted to YouTube over a year ago) of her in her office. At 2:05 the camera shows the framed credentials of her (and another practitioner). Hypnosis, NLP, etc.

edit to add: and the interview is about her hypnosis and hypno"therapy" methods