Greece - Caroline Crouch, 20, Murdered, Athens, May 11, 2021

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Kemug said:
I don't find the age gap worrying at all, having known and currently knowing quite a few couples with a largish age gap. All very happy in long-lasting marriages. Also, when the younger person is female, as is most likely the case, she is probably much more mature than a male of the same age.
Click to expand...

Do girls mature faster, or do we expect mature behaviour from girls at a younger age? Do we, as a society, let 'boys be boys'? There's definitely a shift in thinking away from assuming girls are 'more mature' earlier. Here are some links:
http://affinitymagazine.us/2018/10/...an-boys-we-just-live-in-a-misogynistic-world/
Girls Don’t Mature Faster Than Boys, We Just Live in a Misogynistic World

Do Girls Really Mature Faster? Maybe Not

Let's take into consideration the societal and environmental influences in which participants are growing.

‘Girls Mature Faster Than Boys,’ A Phrase that Needs To Retire with 2019

Stop using the excuse that ‘boys mature slower than girls’ for bad behaviour


I definitely feel like there is some certain aspects of this tragic case that warrant close inspection... like if this was targeted in some way for some reason. I feel like the way she was the only one to be actually hurt a little sus tbh.
 
mrjitty said:
An oddity in the various (confused) reports.

If the dog was killed inside, why take it outside and hang it up? Seems somewhat theatrical.
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It must take a lot of strength to strangle a husky dog, even with a lead I don't think it would be quick or easy with such a wide, thick-skinned and fur covered neck and the weight of the dog resisting against the person. The person would have to have quite a significant height advantage over the dog, and strength, to maintain that pull on the lead. I rather think it was killed by the hanging, or was suffocated first and hung for staging.

Presumably Caroline and Babis heard Bruno barking during this event, as did the neighbour through thick walls, but stayed in the bedroom and didn't call police from the phone on the nightstand. I know when I had my babies I became very used to sleeping with an ear out for the slightest noise.

I note also the neighbour didn't say she was woken up by the barking, she just said she heard the dog barking earlier in the night and presumed it was fighting the cats. So was she awake already at 4:30/5am, or was it much earlier in the night, before she went to sleep, perhaps? If she was awake and listening to the dog, in the quiet early morning hours, I think there is a good chance she would have heard the couple screaming.


"Babis said: “I heard my wife screaming for help. We screamed not to be hurt. The baby was crying, my wife was crying and someone or some people were looking through the house to find more money and jewellery.

“They left the room and I couldn’t hear my wife’s voice any more.” Conflicting reports say she was strangled with a pair of trousers or suffocated with a pillow."


Then there is the point about the method of killing, strangulation/suffocation, being the same for Caroline and Bruno, time-consuming, and not your common ruthless assassin-style, as the hanging dog might depict. If the dog was thrown over the railing whilst alive, to hang, it seems to me it could be a decision of convenience - distance from the act in one respect, it being done by the lead and railing, no bloodshed on clothing, and possibly nothing else available. But it creates a scene of horror, and why would the killers care about effect? It wasn't done in front of the owners to terrorise them.

Lastly, Caroline and the dog were killed with items available in the house. Presumably Bruno was not wearing his lead in the house, and the killers had to go and find it in the dark after breaking in, giving longer for the barking to wake everybody up. If they brought bindings for the adults, and obviously planned to kill the dog first, why did they use household items (lead, clothing, pillow) to kill? A gun shot would have been quick, and they could have brought a silencer since it was planned.

Oh, maybe not last, how do you break a security camera without being recorded on it first?

All MOO
 
Tortoise said:
It must take a lot of strength to strangle a husky dog, even with a lead I don't think it would be quick or easy with such a wide, thick-skinned and fur covered neck and the weight of the dog resisting against the person. The person would have to have quite a significant height advantage over the dog, and strength, to maintain that pull on the lead. I rather think it was killed by the hanging, or was suffocated first and hung for staging.

Presumably Caroline and Babis heard Bruno barking during this event, as did the neighbour through thick walls, but stayed in the bedroom and didn't call police from the phone on the nightstand. I know when I had my babies I became very used to sleeping with an ear out for the slightest noise.

I note also the neighbour didn't say she was woken up by the barking, she just said she heard the dog barking earlier in the night and presumed it was fighting the cats. So was she awake already at 4:30/5am, or was it much earlier in the night, before she went to sleep, perhaps? If she was awake and listening to the dog, in the quiet early morning hours, I think there is a good chance she would have heard the couple screaming.


"Babis said: “I heard my wife screaming for help. We screamed not to be hurt. The baby was crying, my wife was crying and someone or some people were looking through the house to find more money and jewellery.

“They left the room and I couldn’t hear my wife’s voice any more.” Conflicting reports say she was strangled with a pair of trousers or suffocated with a pillow."


Then there is the point about the method of killing, strangulation/suffocation, being the same for Caroline and Bruno, time-consuming, and not your common ruthless assassin-style, as the hanging dog might depict. If the dog was thrown over the railing whilst alive, to hang, it seems to me it could be a decision of convenience - distance from the act in one respect, it being done by the lead and railing, no bloodshed on clothing, and possibly nothing else available. But it creates a scene of horror, and why would the killers care about effect? It wasn't done in front of the owners to terrorise them.

Lastly, Caroline and the dog were killed with items available in the house. Presumably Bruno was not wearing his lead in the house, and the killers had to go and find it in the dark after breaking in, giving longer for the barking to wake everybody up. If they brought bindings for the adults, and obviously planned to kill the dog first, why did they use household items (lead, clothing, pillow) to kill? A gun shot would have been quick, and they could have brought a silencer since it was planned.

Oh, maybe not last, how do you break a security camera without being recorded on it first?

All MOO
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Great analysis as usual T

The dog really bothers me, though we have to keep in mind some reporting might be incorrect.

I would have thought if you were breaking in, and confronted with a loud and potentially aggressive dog, the natural thing to do would be to strike it with a weapon. Trying to restrain it, then hanging it seems peculiar.
 
Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Κάρολαϊν
Here is a more detailed statement from the husband that clarifies some things.

  • The robbers entered after 4 am, from a window (the one pictured) at the back of the house, after destroying the camera. The blind was open, they removed the window pane, along with the frame. The window pane fell from a height of 1,50 m to the floor, but didn't break, so it didn't alert the owners. Then, they went to the ground floor, where they found the dog, a medium sized crossbreed one, which started barking and was heard by the neighbor. The article offers quite a graphic description of what they did to the dog, and I'm not sure I want to recap it, but it ends up with the dog hanging from the staircase (which was, by the way, inside the house, so it could not be seen/arise suspicions from outside).
  • The couple and the baby were all sleeping at the attic together, and they didn't hear any noise, or the dog barking, until the robbers stormed into their room.
  • He gives once more a description of the robbers, says two of them were taller, about 1.80 m, thin but with an athletic build and were the ones holding guns and wearing full-face masks. The third was shorter, about 1.70, wearing a balaclava and seemed to be the leader. It doesn't say that he was overweight, just that he was heavier than the others. Also, he wasn't holding a gun.
  • He told them immediately where the money was (in a Monopoly box at the basement) and they started tying him up using twine. Hands and feet in the fetal position, the head as it has been described before (with duct tape covering everything from the neck above, minus nose, leaving a him the ability to see from one eye).
  • He could hear them verbally threatening Caroline that they would kill the baby unless they told them where the money was, but couldn't see if they threatened anyone with a gun, as he was facing the floor.
  • He lost consciousness multiple times, for up to 30 minutes at some point.
  • While he was knocked out, the robbers tied his wife using a pair of trousers, but apparently she was putting up a fight, so one of them tied a shirt around her neck and covered her mouth and nose with his hand, causing her to suffocate, right next to her daughter.
  • After the couple was incapacitated, they went down, stole 10000 from the Monopoly box, and then proceeded to ransack the basement, go to the first floor, from where they took jewelry, and return to the ground floor, from where they escaped, through the main door, at about 5.30-5.35 am.
  • At about that time, the husband regained consciousness and, upon not hearing any noise, believed that the robbers had left and his wife was passed out. His phone was charging on the nightstand, but he managed to crawl there, throw it on the floor, and press the on/off button with his nose, turn it on, and then call 100 at 6.16 am. AFTER that, he called his neighbor, who also called the police for help, thinking, however, that he was having a stroke.
  • The police, upon arriving and storming into the ground floor , found the dog hanging from the staircase and the entire mess the robbers had left behind, and figured something bad had happened. With their weapons drawn they went upstairs, and the first thing they saw was the wife's feet. They stated they saw the baby trying to wake her up. They took the baby, and then untied B, who immediately bended over his wife, whispered something to her, and started crying.
 
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I feel like the dog has to be bad reporting. If, as @Tortoise said, it was a husky type they are quite heavy and solid to manhandle into the position as described.

I also wonder why an “assassin” wouldn’t have done their homework and realising there was a large dog in the house, either shot or poisoned it first to stop it making a noise.
 
caylee17799 said:
He told them immediately where the money was (in a Monopoly box at the basement) and they started tying him up using twine. Hands and feet in the fetal position, the head as it has been described before (with duct tape covering everything from the neck above, minus nose, leaving a him the ability to see from one eye).
Click to expand...
So B instantly told them where to find the money; one presumably went to look, the others (“they”) started tying him up. Then they taped his head. By my reckoning, this would take at least 5 minutes with a victim who is struggling and fighting against it. What was Caroline doing at this point? Waiting around until they had finished tying him up and covering his head and face?

Then while he’s “unconscious” he knows exactly what they did to his wife, even though he can’t see because his eyes are taped shut and he’s face down. Except he can see because they left a bit untaped. But he can hear perfectly because somehow the tape that’s round his head, mouth, eyes and face isn’t round his ears! He also knows how long he was unconscious for, even though he can’t see because he’s face down and tied up, so presumably can’t look at his watch.

MOO JMO
 
caylee17799 said:
Έγκλημα στα Γλυκά Νερά: Η συγκλονιστική κατάθεση του άντρα της Κάρολαϊν
Here is a more detailed statement of the husband that clarifies some things.

  • The robbers entered after 4 am, from a window (the one pictured) at the back of the house, after destroying the camera. The blind was open, they removed the window pane, along with the frame. The window pane fell from a height of 1,50 m to the floor, but didn't break, so it didn't alert the owners. Then, they went to the ground floor, where they found the dog, a medium sized crossbreed one, which started barking and was heard by the neighbor. The article offers quite a graphic description of what they did to the dog, and I'm not sure I want to recap it, but it ends up with the dog hanging from the staircase (which was, by the way, inside the house, so it could not be seen/arise suspicions from outside).
  • The couple and the baby were all sleeping at the attic together, and they didn't hear any noise, or the dog barking, until the robbers stormed into their room.
  • He gives once more a description of the robbers, says two of them were taller, about 1.80 m, thin but with an athletic build and were the ones holding guns and wearing full-face masks. The third was shorter, about 1.70, wearing a balaclava and seemed to be the leader. It doesn't say that he was overweight, just that he was heavier than the others. Also, he wasn't holding a gun.
  • He told them immediately where the money was (in a Monopoly box at the basement) and they started tying him up using twine. Hands and feet in the fetal position, the head as it has been described before (with duct tape covering everything from the neck above, minus nose, leaving a him the ability to see from one eye).
  • He could hear them verbally threatening Caroline that they would kill the baby unless they told them where the money was, but couldn't see if they threatened anyone with a gun, as he was facing the floor.
  • He lost consciousness multiple times, for up to 30 minutes at some point.
  • While he was knocked out, the robbers tied his wife using a pair of trousers, but apparently she was putting up a fight, so one of them tied a shirt around her neck and covered her mouth and nose with his hand, causing her to suffocate, right next to her daughter.
  • After the couple was incapacitated, they went down, stole 10000 from the Monopoly box, and then proceeded to ransack the basement, go to the first floor, from where they took jewelry, and return to the ground floor, from where they escaped, through the main door, at about 5.30-5.35 am.
  • At about that time, the husband regained consciousness and, upon not hearing any noise, believed that the robbers had left and his wife was passed out. His phone was charging on the nightstand, but he managed to crawl there, throw it on the floor, and press the on/off button with his nose, turn it on, and then call 100 at 6.16 am. AFTER that, he called his neighbor, who also called the police for help, thinking, however, that he was having a stroke.
  • The police, upon arriving and storming into the ground floor , found the dog hanging from the staircase and the entire mess the robbers had left behind, and figured something bad had happened. With their weapons drawn they went upstairs, and the first thing they saw was the wife's feet. They stated they saw the baby trying to wake her up. They took the baby, and then untied B, who immediately bended over his wife, told her something, and started crying.
Click to expand...
Thank you, just reading it now.

So one thing that jumps out is it wasn't last number redial for the neighbour then.

Also note the neighbour heard the dog barking at 4:20am. Quite strange that the neighbour heard but neither of them did.

My guess was correct, the dog was killed by the hanging.
 
Using google translate from the article linked above by @caylee17799 -

In Monopoly they find the almost 10,000 euros, but this does not satisfy them. In a state of amok, they turn over everything they find in front of them, but the way they search is so sketchy that some boxes pass them and leave them intact.
 
Kitkat28 said:
So B instantly told them where to find the money; one presumably went to look, the others (“they”) started tying him up. Then they taped his head. By my reckoning, this would take at least 5 minutes with a victim who is struggling and fighting against it. What was Caroline doing at this point? Waiting around until they had finished tying him up and covering his head and face?

Then while he’s “unconscious” he knows exactly what they did to his wife, even though he can’t see because his eyes are taped shut and he’s face down. Except he can see because they left a bit untaped. But he can hear perfectly because somehow the tape that’s round his head, mouth, eyes and face isn’t round his ears! He also knows how long he was unconscious for, even though he can’t see because he’s face down and tied up, so presumably can’t look at his watch.

MOO JMO
Click to expand...
It says that none of them left the attic till they were both incapacitated (B-unconscious, C-dead) , so I presume two of them were tying him up, while the third was holding Caroline/the baby at gunpoint.
I guess the description from what they did to Caroline came from the autopsy report, not B himself, since he didn't find out she was dead until the police came, not while the murder took place. He probably could hear them threatening this family while they were taping his face/tying him up. And regarding the time he was knocked out, it could be an estimation, between Caroline's TOD (during which he was unconscious) and the time the robbers left, which is around the time he woke up. I'm not saying this is essentially the truth, just possible explanations.
 
caylee17799 said:
It says that none of them left the attic till they were both incapacitated (B-unconscious, C-dead) , so I presume two of them were tying him up, while the third was holding Caroline/the baby at gunpoint.
I guess the description from what they did to Caroline came from the autopsy report, not B himself, since he didn't find out she was dead until the police came, not while the murder took place. He probably could hear them threatening this family while they were taping his face/tying him up. And regarding the time he was knocked out, it could be an estimation, between Caroline's TOD (during which he was unconscious) and the time the robbers left, which is around the time he woke up. I'm not saying this is essentially the truth, just possible explanations.
Click to expand...
It just seems strange that they say to B “where’s the money” and he says it’s in the basement. They don’t go to the basement to look, they stay with B & C, tie up, torture, murder, then they go to the basement as per this post
Tortoise said:
Using google translate from the article linked above by @caylee17799 -

In Monopoly they find the almost 10,000 euros, but this does not satisfy them. In a state of amok, they turn over everything they find in front of them, but the way they search is so sketchy that some boxes pass them and leave them intact.
Click to expand...
and the amount “doesn’t satisfy them”. But they’ve already murdered C by this point surely if the previous post is correct?
 
Tortoise said:
Using google translate from the article linked above by @caylee17799 -

In Monopoly they find the almost 10,000 euros, but this does not satisfy them. In a state of amok, they turn over everything they find in front of them, but the way they search is so sketchy that some boxes pass them and leave them intact.
Click to expand...
My bad, I was in a hurry because I had a class, and the article was very long, so some details eluded me... yes it says that they were searching hurriedly and sketchily at that point (having been more inside the house for more than an hour) and left some boxes undisturbed. They also didn't ransack or spend much time on the first floor, taking only jewelry (that perhaps was in plain sight, or very easily found) with them. Another interesting detail that I forgot to add was that the first officers at the scene found the main door (through which the perps escaped) locked, then noticed the removed window frame, then got in. I'll read the article again, see if there's anything more to add.
 
Kitkat28 said:
So B instantly told them where to find the money; one presumably went to look, the others (“they”) started tying him up. Then they taped his head. By my reckoning, this would take at least 5 minutes with a victim who is struggling and fighting against it. What was Caroline doing at this point? Waiting around until they had finished tying him up and covering his head and face?

Then while he’s “unconscious” he knows exactly what they did to his wife, even though he can’t see because his eyes are taped shut and he’s face down. Except he can see because they left a bit untaped. But he can hear perfectly because somehow the tape that’s round his head, mouth, eyes and face isn’t round his ears! He also knows how long he was unconscious for, even though he can’t see because he’s face down and tied up, so presumably can’t look at his watch.

MOO JMO
Click to expand...
Mmmm I have even more questions now but I will say no more
 
Kitkat28 said:
It just seems strange that they say to B “where’s the money” and he says it’s in the basement. They don’t go to the basement to look, they stay with B & C, tie up, torture, murder, then they go to the basement as per this post

and the amount “doesn’t satisfy them”. But they’ve already murdered C by this point surely if the previous post is correct?
Click to expand...
It could be the translation from Greek to English
 
caylee17799 said:
My bad, I was in a hurry because I had a class, and the article was very long, so some details eluded me... yes it says that they were searching hurriedly and sketchily at that point (have been more than an hour inside the house) and left some boxes undisturbed. They also didn't ransack or spend much time on the first floor, taking only jewelry (that perhaps was in plain sight, or very easily found) with them. Another interesting detail that I forgot to add was that the first officers at the scene found the main door (through which the perps escaped) locked, then noticed the removed window frame, then got in. I'll read the article again, see if there's anything more to add.
Click to expand...
Thank you @caylee17799 for your kind translator service x
 
caylee17799 said:
My bad, I was in a hurry because I had a class, and the article was very long, so some details eluded me... yes it says that they were searching hurriedly and sketchily at that point (have been more than an hour inside the house) and left some boxes undisturbed. They also didn't ransack or spend much time on the first floor, taking only jewelry (that perhaps was in plain sight, or very easily found) with them. Another interesting detail that I forgot to add was that the first officers at the scene found the main door (through which the perps escaped) locked, then noticed the removed window frame, then got in. I'll read the article again, see if there's anything more to add.
Click to expand...
That detail about the locked door sounds strange at first. But then again, there are a lot of doors which require a use of a key to get inside even if it is not really locked from inside. Countless funny movie twists are based on just that.

Thanks @caylee17799 for translating it for us.
 
Angleterre said:
It could be the translation from Greek to English
Click to expand...
It says "The robbers, having incapacitated the couple, got down to the basement." I agree, it doesn't make much sense. I mean, if I was the leader of this robbery, and the husband had told me immediately where they stored the money, maybe i'd put some duct tape over their mouths and tie them up to, let's say, the bedpost, and then i'd have one partner holding them/ the baby at gunpoint, while the rest of us could go,undisturbed, to take what we, supposedly, came in for in the first place.
 
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