Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[gitana1]

Wherever Maria ends, bio family or the other family, she will have the same destiny, married with at least two kids until age of 15, no educations, just poverty. I hope she will be adopted.

This story led to the removal of at least two other light colored Gypsy kids among rampant speculation of thievery by Gypsies of white children, the perpetuation of a myth that has zero basis in fact, as I tried hard to explain.

Yet instead of acknowledgement that indeed, these people did not kidnap or steal a child, or even buy a child, there are indignant posts stating what a crummy life this kid is going to have, because the "blonde angel" is a Gypsy, so of course she has no future, and that she should be adopted out at once.

Sorry, but we can't just run around taking white-looking kids from the culture they were born into, even though that culture is a poor one and some of its members resort to crime.

This reminds me of The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction. http://www.salon.com/1999/12/13/gordon_3/. 40 orphan kids were taken by nuns from a Catholic charity in New York and placed with Catholic families in Arizona to be adopted. The kids were from Catholic homes and their biological parents wanted them to go to Catholic families.

But there was a problem. The kids were white and the families who adopted them were Mexican.

Outraged Arizona citizens swooped down in a mob, battered down doors and "rescued" all those "blonde angels" from the "scummy" dark families they were with and forcibly adopted them out to nice, white Protestant families.

It also reminds me of the theft of Aborigine kids from their culture, especially the mixed ones, and the theft of Native American kids from their tribes, and their forcible adoptions.

Sure, it's true that the parents in this particular family little "M" was in have been arrested for criminal acts. But why can't she stay with her extended Gypsy family? Why can't she stay with other members of her family, de facto adopted aunts, uncles, grandparents or biological aunts, uncles and grandparents, instead of being adopted out to some "nice" "white" family who has no connection to the culture?

As I stated before, not all of my people are bad. But this case helped solidify stereotypes that are so entrenched that even now, when it appears that these people did not steal her, did not even buy her, there's no apology for the immediate belief that they did and for the wild speculation that followed, about massive child-stealing rings among Gypsies, and the hope is that she will be quickly ripped from her culture and people.

That makes me sad.

Finally, I think this case should be a lesson about bias and preconceived notions, for me and everyone else. I did state that she could almost be a Gypsy kid with her looks, but for the fact that I had never seen her exact combination of fairness (light eyes, skin and hair). Well, my notions about the coloring of Gypsy kids was wrong. There are some Roma children who have this exact combination of coloring. And here she is:

 

[~n/t~]

This story led to the removal of at least two other light colored Gypsy kids among rampant speculation of thievery by Gypsies of white children, the perpetuation of a myth that has zero basis in fact, as I tried hard to explain.

Yet instead of acknowledgement that indeed, these people did not kidnap or steal a child, or even buy a child, there are indignant posts stating what a crummy life this kid is going to have, because the "blonde angel" is a Gypsy, so of course she has no future, and that she should be adopted out at once.

Sorry, but we can't just run around taking white-looking kids from the culture they were born into, even though that culture is a poor one and some of its members resort to crime.

This reminds me of The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction. http://www.salon.com/1999/12/13/gordon_3/. 40 orphan kids were taken by nuns from a Catholic charity in New York and placed with Catholic families in Arizona to be adopted. The kids were from Catholic homes and their biological parents wanted them to go to Catholic families.

But there was a problem. The kids were white and the families who adopted them were Mexican.

Outraged Arizona citizens swooped down in a mob, battered down doors and "rescued" all those "blonde angels" from the "scummy" dark families they were with and forcibly adopted them out to nice, white Protestant families.

It also reminds me of the theft of Aborigine kids from their culture, especially the mixed ones, and the theft of Native American kids from their tribes, and their forcible adoptions.

Sure, it's true that the parents in this particular family little "M" was in have been arrested for criminal acts. But why can't she stay with her extended Gypsy family? Why can't she stay with other members of her family, de facto adopted aunts, uncles, grandparents or biological aunts, uncles and grandparents, instead of being adopted out to some "nice" "white" family who has no connection to the culture?

As I stated before, not all of my people are bad. But this case helped solidify stereotypes that are so entrenched that even now, when it appears that these people did not steal her, did not even buy her, there's no apology for the immediate belief that they did and for the wild speculation that followed, about massive child-stealing rings among Gypsies, and the hope is that she will be quickly ripped from her culture and people.

That makes me sad.

Finally, I think this case should be a lesson about bias and preconceived notions, for me and everyone else. I did state that she could almost be a Gypsy kid with her looks, but for the fact that I had never seen her exact combination of fairness (light eyes, skin and hair). Well, my notions about the coloring of Gypsy kids was wrong. There are some Roma children who have this exact combination of coloring. And here she is:

We don't know anything about her extended family. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the culture but one has to question whether she is safe with bio family. What if they get fed up and give her up again?

Gypsy or not. Children should have stability

 

[Linda7NJ]

I have to wonder what kind of a turn in life she might find now that she tasted another world?

Bless this precious child and all the millions like her....:tears:

She literally tasted it, and didn't like it


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[Linda7NJ]

This story led to the removal of at least two other light colored Gypsy kids among rampant speculation of thievery by Gypsies of white children, the perpetuation of a myth that has zero basis in fact, as I tried hard to explain.

Yet instead of acknowledgement that indeed, these people did not kidnap or steal a child, or even buy a child, there are indignant posts stating what a crummy life this kid is going to have, because the "blonde angel" is a Gypsy, so of course she has no future, and that she should be adopted out at once.

Sorry, but we can't just run around taking white-looking kids from the culture they were born into, even though that culture is a poor one and some of its members resort to crime.

This reminds me of The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction. http://www.salon.com/1999/12/13/gordon_3/. 40 orphan kids were taken by nuns from a Catholic charity in New York and placed with Catholic families in Arizona to be adopted. The kids were from Catholic homes and their biological parents wanted them to go to Catholic families.

But there was a problem. The kids were white and the families who adopted them were Mexican.

Outraged Arizona citizens swooped down in a mob, battered down doors and "rescued" all those "blonde angels" from the "scummy" dark families they were with and forcibly adopted them out to nice, white Protestant families.

It also reminds me of the theft of Aborigine kids from their culture, especially the mixed ones, and the theft of Native American kids from their tribes, and their forcible adoptions.

Sure, it's true that the parents in this particular family little "M" was in have been arrested for criminal acts. But why can't she stay with her extended Gypsy family? Why can't she stay with other members of her family, de facto adopted aunts, uncles, grandparents or biological aunts, uncles and grandparents, instead of being adopted out to some "nice" "white" family who has no connection to the culture?

As I stated before, not all of my people are bad. But this case helped solidify stereotypes that are so entrenched that even now, when it appears that these people did not steal her, did not even buy her, there's no apology for the immediate belief that they did and for the wild speculation that followed, about massive child-stealing rings among Gypsies, and the hope is that she will be quickly ripped from her culture and people.

That makes me sad.

Finally, I think this case should be a lesson about bias and preconceived notions, for me and everyone else. I did state that she could almost be a Gypsy kid with her looks, but for the fact that I had never seen her exact combination of fairness (light eyes, skin and hair). Well, my notions about the coloring of Gypsy kids was wrong. There are some Roma children who have this exact combination of coloring. And here she is:

Just for the record, I've always given this couple the benefit of doubt. I was truly sickened by the intolerance and despairing at the ignorance of the undeniable poverty that exists in the world by those that seem to have judged the harshest. Those that equate poverty with a lack of love ... Shocking... I still can't believe the media and others play such a role in this in 2013


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[~n/t~]

She literally tasted it, and didn't like it


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How do you know this?

 

[Linda7NJ]

How do you know this?

It's posted in an article up thread.

The child cried herself to sleep and doesn't like the food where she is.


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[Oblio]

We don't know anything about her extended family. I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the culture but one has to question whether she is safe with bio family. What if they get fed up and give her up again?

Gypsy or not. Children should have stability

Stability is relative.

Stability, civilization, blah blah blah, all reasons to steal children. Which of course results in whole cultures and languages dying.

 

[~n/t~]

It's posted in an article up thread.

The child cried herself to sleep and doesn't like the food where she is.


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Thanks missed the article. Sad. What happens to her now?

 

[time]

This story led to the removal of at least two other light colored Gypsy kids among rampant speculation of thievery by Gypsies of white children, the perpetuation of a myth that has zero basis in fact, as I tried hard to explain.

Yet instead of acknowledgement that indeed, these people did not kidnap or steal a child, or even buy a child, there are indignant posts stating what a crummy life this kid is going to have, because the "blonde angel" is a Gypsy, so of course she has no future, and that she should be adopted out at once.

Sorry, but we can't just run around taking white-looking kids from the culture they were born into, even though that culture is a poor one and some of its members resort to crime.

This reminds me of The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction. http://www.salon.com/1999/12/13/gordon_3/. 40 orphan kids were taken by nuns from a Catholic charity in New York and placed with Catholic families in Arizona to be adopted. The kids were from Catholic homes and their biological parents wanted them to go to Catholic families.

But there was a problem. The kids were white and the families who adopted them were Mexican.

Outraged Arizona citizens swooped down in a mob, battered down doors and "rescued" all those "blonde angels" from the "scummy" dark families they were with and forcibly adopted them out to nice, white Protestant families.

It also reminds me of the theft of Aborigine kids from their culture, especially the mixed ones, and the theft of Native American kids from their tribes, and their forcible adoptions.

Sure, it's true that the parents in this particular family little "M" was in have been arrested for criminal acts. But why can't she stay with her extended Gypsy family? Why can't she stay with other members of her family, de facto adopted aunts, uncles, grandparents or biological aunts, uncles and grandparents, instead of being adopted out to some "nice" "white" family who has no connection to the culture?

As I stated before, not all of my people are bad. But this case helped solidify stereotypes that are so entrenched that even now, when it appears that these people did not steal her, did not even buy her, there's no apology for the immediate belief that they did and for the wild speculation that followed, about massive child-stealing rings among Gypsies, and the hope is that she will be quickly ripped from her culture and people.

That makes me sad.

Finally, I think this case should be a lesson about bias and preconceived notions, for me and everyone else. I did state that she could almost be a Gypsy kid with her looks, but for the fact that I had never seen her exact combination of fairness (light eyes, skin and hair). Well, my notions about the coloring of Gypsy kids was wrong. There are some Roma children who have this exact combination of coloring. And here she is:

I agree with you on most of this. I do think though that the family that had Maria was in violation of Greek law. But it points to many significant changes needed to be made in society and perhaps in Roma themselves. I have seen a lot in the media that is sympathetic to the Roma plight and the taking of children that look different/White. I hope Maria will stay within her own culture, whatever arrangements are made.

I did not know about the example you gave of Native American children, but I do know a very high number of Native American children have been taken and it hasn't been that long ago. I have a longtime friend who was taken from his mother, Annishanbe, in the 1960's and put in Boys Town along with his brother where they suffered years of sexual abuse. However, these kids were not taken because they look different so an entirely different and sad scenario where Native Americans lost their own children and where many where converted to Christianity.

From your link, and not nearly so black and white as nothing ever is ...

"To Western whites, the nuns were depraved white-slavers selling children to drunken-wh*re savages.

Local whites (nearly all Protestant, and therefore ineligible to receive the sisters’ charges) rioted and “liberated” the children from their Mexican foster parents, all of whom had been carefully vetted by the local (white) priest in accordance with the Sisters of Charity’s well-established system."

 

[~n/t~]

Stability is relative.

Stability, civilization, blah blah blah, all reasons to steal children. Which of course results in whole cultures and languages dying.

My understanding is the child was sold to them so she wasn't stolen per se. Maybe I'm not understanding your post. What I meant by stability was a child needs reassurance that everything is ok. Maybe the word I should have used is security regardless of culture. If being poor is what she has always known then that is what she feels more secure with.

Hope I'm making sense. :blushing:

 

[Oblio]

My understanding is the child was sold to them so she wasn't stolen per se. Maybe I'm not understanding your post. What I meant by stability was a child needs reassurance that everything is ok. Maybe the word I should have used is security regardless of culture. If being poor is what she has always known then that is what she feels more secure with.

Hope I'm making sense. :blushing:

Yes. That does make more sense.

A few posters in this thread have expressed a need to apply "our" (as in first world) living standards as a judge of stability and where she should be.

That's been done historically with regrettable effects.

I feel she should be returned to the world she knows, as close as possible to the family she knows.

They are her stability.

 

[gitana1]

They immediately know she's not Madeleine because Madeleine has an eye defect called coloboma which Maria does not. Furthermore, she's also too young to be Madeleine. It really has nothing to go with guilt or innocence. Maria is not Madeleine.

And she looked nothing like her either. One would think parents who raised their kid for several years would know their own child in an instant.

Something doesn't fit in this story. For a healthy blonde, blue eyed baby they could've get much, much more than 1000 euro.

Gypsies do not give their kids to outsiders and most Gypsies don't have a lot of money. BTW, what we call selling, they don't necessarily. For example, we call it a price, they call it a dowry. And in the case of adoptions, they may not go through normal, legal adoption channels, all of which include payment of some form to the bio mother, but instead they informally give bio-mom some cash. I don't think that's selling any more than payments to bio-moms here would be.

There are at least 5 kinds of Albinism, and while I'm not a doctor, I feel M has at least type one or OA. She might not be sunburned in any pictures or media we currently have, but I don't see that as evidence that she can't be afflicted.
http://www.albinism.org/publications/what_is_albinism.html

About albinism - there's multiple types of it with different effects. The white hair/red eyes people typically think of is down to OCA1A.

There's also OCA1B which fits Maria better. Blue to hazel eyes are possible, white to very pale blonde hair, some melanin production in the skin to the point where a light tan is possible and less severe vision problems. There's a variety of subtypes within the OCA1B diagnosis. OCA2 is another option, with similar effects but it's extremely rare in eastern european populations.

I learned something. Thank you! I did not think she could be albino and I was very wrong.

I think those seized items were from the encampment at large, not specifically from Mom and Dad Roma?

Reading back it sure appears that way.

And i have a bridge for sale. If the biological mom "sometimes visits" how come she doesn't actually know if M is her daughter?

I doubt this is true but it is a possibility. Roma populations migrate and stay with other camps at times. It is possible she has stayed with this camp before but didn't seek out the kid she gave up.

Just a guess, but I'm thinking anytime you have poverty in confined spaces like these Roma encampments, you'll find illegal activity. Drugs, stolen goods, fake documents. I'd venture to guess even that if LE did a sweep of the parking lot at the World Series you'd find the same things. With ticket prices exceeding the disposable income levels of most middle-class Americans. I don't think those dots are exclusively connected with the Roma population. IMO

I appreciate that.

Not abused? Do you not see how filthy they are in the photos? She lives in one room home with no running water, and you think the child should be given to her? And then there is Mr. R who said he can't remember all his children names "because there are so many of them."

Poverty and irresponsible procreation is not abuse. It's sad. There;s a difference.

Then by all means, lets send the kid back there ASAP.

I just don;t understand what you're saying. Is she to be removed from her people, her culture, because they're poor? If poverty was the threshold for removal of children for adoption elsewhere, we would have to build orphanages that mirror our prison, stacking kids like cord wood.

She never lived in that biological home. The supposed bio mom claimed she gave birth to her in Greece and couldn't take her home to Bulgaria.
As to not have running water and having filthy children, it might not be abuse in Bulgaria, but here in US I wouldn't surprised if CPS came in knocking if children were living under those conditions.

Try taking a look at Appalachia. Or areas in greater Los Angeles, or parts of the Inland Empire here in California. Or many of our reservations.
Tons of American kids live that way and aren't hauled out of their homes.

I think the issue here may come down to the lesser of the evils. Many European countries have notoriously poor/cruel/uncaring reputations when it comes to orphanages and social services. The latter seems particularly true for Romas. Greece has massive infrastructure and economic issues. If the only pictures we ever saw of this little one were akin to those seen of alleged Bio Roma Mom's other children, I suspect there wouldn't be near the hubbub about this case. But she's blonde and 'white' and the outcry was about the possibility of stolen white babies. Stolen/bartered Roma babies seem to have a lower 'value' in the public eye.

Precisely. This never would have had as much interest if the kid looked like a typical Gypsy.

But, I actually have a problem with that. I'm sure you and I don't see this the same way, but I don't think it's right to take Maria away from the Roma camp. I think she should be left with her own people. I can't justify adopting her out.

I am very much aware that the Roma don't do things the way I do them, but I'm not so certain, as you seem to be, that I know what is best for the whole great big wide world out there.

Additionally, I know that Maria is hardly the only child in such a situation. There are hundreds of thousands of children living in Roma camps just like her. She just happens to have very unusual blond hair and blue eyes. It may indeed be some kind of albinism. It is certainly a genetic anomaly among these people.

Why should we remove her and not all of them? Or? Perhaps you believe they should all be removed? I just completely disagree. I can be comfortable living in a world where not everyone makes exactly the same choices I make. I don't presume to know best.

I would be unhappy to see Maria adopted out of her Roma heritage. I think it is narrow and presumptuous to believe she needs to be rescued from it. I think it is particularly narrow to think that she is somehow especially worthy of such a rescue. That's a really peculiar notion. I don't think she needs to be "rescued" at all.

Edited to add: I don't have a problem with out-of-race adoptions, my point is, I don't think it's necessary in this case, or rather, it may not be necessary in this case, and I don't presume to know.

I think I love you.

Just for the record, I've always given this couple the benefit of doubt. I was truly sickened by the intolerance and despairing at the ignorance of the undeniable poverty that exists in the world by those that seem to have judged the harshest. Those that equate poverty with a lack of love ... Shocking... I still can't believe the media and others play such a role in this in 2013


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You sure have. I've read your posts and am so grateful for your compassion.

My understanding is the child was sold to them so she wasn't stolen per se. Maybe I'm not understanding your post. What I meant by stability was a child needs reassurance that everything is ok. Maybe the word I should have used is security regardless of culture. If being poor is what she has always known then that is what she feels more secure with.

Hope I'm making sense. :blushing:

Yes, kids need stability and I wish they all could have it. But lack of stability is not enough of a reason to remove a child from her culture and people.

 

[modesty blaise]

This story led to the removal of at least two other light colored Gypsy kids among rampant speculation of thievery by Gypsies of white children, the perpetuation of a myth that has zero basis in fact, as I tried hard to explain.

Yet instead of acknowledgement that indeed, these people did not kidnap or steal a child, or even buy a child, there are indignant posts stating what a crummy life this kid is going to have, because the "blonde angel" is a Gypsy, so of course she has no future, and that she should be adopted out at once.

Sorry, but we can't just run around taking white-looking kids from the culture they were born into, even though that culture is a poor one and some of its members resort to crime.

This reminds me of The Great Arizona Orphan Abduction. http://www.salon.com/1999/12/13/gordon_3/. 40 orphan kids were taken by nuns from a Catholic charity in New York and placed with Catholic families in Arizona to be adopted. The kids were from Catholic homes and their biological parents wanted them to go to Catholic families.

But there was a problem. The kids were white and the families who adopted them were Mexican.

Outraged Arizona citizens swooped down in a mob, battered down doors and "rescued" all those "blonde angels" from the "scummy" dark families they were with and forcibly adopted them out to nice, white Protestant families.

It also reminds me of the theft of Aborigine kids from their culture, especially the mixed ones, and the theft of Native American kids from their tribes, and their forcible adoptions.

Sure, it's true that the parents in this particular family little "M" was in have been arrested for criminal acts. But why can't she stay with her extended Gypsy family? Why can't she stay with other members of her family, de facto adopted aunts, uncles, grandparents or biological aunts, uncles and grandparents, instead of being adopted out to some "nice" "white" family who has no connection to the culture?

As I stated before, not all of my people are bad. But this case helped solidify stereotypes that are so entrenched that even now, when it appears that these people did not steal her, did not even buy her, there's no apology for the immediate belief that they did and for the wild speculation that followed, about massive child-stealing rings among Gypsies, and the hope is that she will be quickly ripped from her culture and people.

That makes me sad.

Finally, I think this case should be a lesson about bias and preconceived notions, for me and everyone else. I did state that she could almost be a Gypsy kid with her looks, but for the fact that I had never seen her exact combination of fairness (light eyes, skin and hair). Well, my notions about the coloring of Gypsy kids was wrong. There are some Roma children who have this exact combination of coloring. And here she is:

I wish there were multiple thanks buttons...
the value judgements that were made in this thread are astounding.

 

[mrsward]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-IS-natural-mother-blonde-haired-Maria.html


So reports suggest her parents have done a runner leaving 2 of the children behind..

And there was me trying so very hard not to judge these people..

 

[Elley Mae]

Greek Businessman Returned Little Maria for Being Cross-eyed

http://www.novinite.com/articles/154930/Greek+Businessman+Returned+Little+Maria+for+Being+Cross-eyed

Triantafyllopolous blames Greek and Bulgarian authorities for failing to deal with this blatant case of child trafficking.

 

[MsFacetious]

I can't imagine how the parents feel right now, who were hoping this was their baby girl.
I hope that they continue to have hope that their child too can be found. :twocents:

 

[time]

Greek Businessman Returned Little Maria for Being Cross-eyed

http://www.novinite.com/articles/154930/Greek+Businessman+Returned+Little+Maria+for+Being+Cross-eyed

Triantafyllopolous blames Greek and Bulgarian authorities for failing to deal with this blatant case of child trafficking.

I don't know if I would believe this story just yet. The source cited in the article seems iffy. But earlier there were articles posted about 'baby sellers', selling children for a high price to wealthy folks in Greece - some/most/many are illegal adoptions. However, I don't think those involved were Roma.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_18/11/2011_415409

http://digitaljournal.com/article/314698#ixzz2ieefheki

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite6_1_22/10/2013_524356

Maybe somehow Maria was caught up in this though and she ended up with the Greek couple when the sellers realized the eye problems? That doesn't necessarily mean her real parents knew about it?

 

[TorisMom003]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-IS-natural-mother-blonde-haired-Maria.html


So reports suggest her parents have done a runner leaving 2 of the children behind..

And there was me trying so very hard not to judge these people..

The following from the article you posted boggles my mind.

She claimed she could not bring Maria back with her as the Greek authorities required she pay ‘hundreds of euros’ for a birth certificate for her daughter, which she could not afford.

She said: ‘I gave birth to Maria about four and a half years ago. I can’t remember the exact date.

‘I cared for Maria for seven months but I had to come back to Bulgaria look after my other children.

‘I left my daughter with my room-mate. She is also Roma. When I left Maria I asked the woman to send her to Bulgaria. But she hasn’t. I cannot remember her name, it was four years ago.

‘I missed Maria but I don’t have any money so I did not know what to do. I called the woman several times and I knew she was safe and well. I don’t know why she kept her so long, why they did not send her back to me."

How on earth does a mother not remember the exact date she gave birth to one of her children? Also how does a mother not remember the name of the woman she left her small child with that was supposed to send the child to her after a while?

This whole thing is getting more and more fishy.

MOO

 

[knt42]

How on earth does a mother not remember the exact date she gave birth to one of her children? Also how does a mother not remember the name of the woman she left her small child with that was supposed to send the child to her after a while?

Erica Parsons is a name that comes to mind. At least this child is safe and was being taken care of.

 

[vlpate]

She has been identified through DNA: http://on-msn.com/18kbsqW

Born in 2009, which would make her four...

I do hope they send her back to live with the family she's been raised by. She must love them and they must love her. I've seen zero evidence that she was being used by them or that she's been mistreated. I do think there has to be some sort of punishment for not informing law enforcement or trying to adopt her legally from the beginning - not punishing them would set a very scary precedent. At least at the end of the day, they would be a family.

Sadly, Maria, like kids of divorce, has no say in this matter, she's too young, but her heart hurts just like an adult who has been dumped, abandoned, or forced to leave someone they love. This compounded by the fact that she can't ask and hasn't the capacity to understand or effectively object to her world being turned upside down. She might be adopted by parents with lots of "things" and money...it won't fix the long term damage this could possibly do to her psychologically.

I agree with whomever said the picture of the three of them speaks volumes - the woman looks very protective and scared. Praying for the right outcome for this beautiful child.