Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[Linda7NJ]

My question to the people who want to send Maria back to either of the two families is this:

Who the hell is "Michaelis"?

And why is he keeping tabs on Maria? (this is the guy that the Greek family claimed left her there, periodically visited, even after the couple was taken into custody, according to their lawyer).

Reporters who visited the bio-parents village report neighbors as claiming that it was common for pregnant women of the village to go to Greece to have babies, and leave them there for a fee. Who is buying these babies? Presumably not the Greek Roma, who probably enough babies of their own. So who then? And what role does "Michaelis" play? Is he the trafficker that organizes all this? Is the Greek village the place where the women are kept until they give birth?

We hear reports of bio-mom being arrested twice in Greece on suspicion of baby selling, one of which coincides with the approximate time Maria was apparently left there.

There is something evil going on here. On the face of it, it appears that the Bulgarian village has a nice little economy going on supported by selling their children. And individuals in the Greek village are participating on the other end. That is why there are so many lies and no one wants to really talk about it.

How do we know that this "Michaelis" individual does not own Maria, and will not come back some day to recover his "investment" when she is old enough?

That is why she should not go back to either of these communities.

I saw no "nice little economy" anywhere.

That's where the baby trafficking doesn't hold up. IMO,

They are all literally dirt poor.


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[modesty blaise]

I suspect that everyone in the village is a relative.

well that's not a bad thing lots of people to love them.

 

[Brightbird]

http://m.thestar.com/#!/news/greece...nd-the-world/517af1f99a8b8dfa97de3a42ea067d49

Police say the woman looking after Maria has documents to say she gave birth to 6 children in 10 months, and that 10 of the 14 children registered to them are unaccounted for.

That's serious stuff. Where are those other children?

They probably determined that the other kids weren't white and not worth pursuing (sarcasm.....sort of).

 

[Brightbird]

My question to the people who want to send Maria back to either of the two families is this:

Who the hell is "Michaelis"?

And why is he keeping tabs on Maria? (this is the guy that the Greek family claimed left her there, periodically visited, even after the couple was taken into custody, according to their lawyer).

Reporters who visited the bio-parents village report neighbors as claiming that it was common for pregnant women of the village to go to Greece to have babies, and leave them there for a fee. Who is buying these babies? Presumably not the Greek Roma, who probably enough babies of their own. So who then? And what role does "Michaelis" play? Is he the trafficker that organizes all this? Is the Greek village the place where the women are kept until they give birth?

We hear reports of bio-mom being arrested twice in Greece on suspicion of baby selling, one of which coincides with the approximate time Maria was apparently left there.

There is something evil going on here. On the face of it, it appears that the Bulgarian village has a nice little economy going on supported by selling their children. And individuals in the Greek village are participating on the other end. That is why there are so many lies and no one wants to really talk about it.

How do we know that this "Michaelis" individual does not own Maria, and will not come back some day to recover his "investment" when she is old enough?

That is why she should not go back to either of these communities.

Hopefully, an open-minded investigation will figure these things out. Speculation based on prejudice, stereotypes and the actions of a few won't help. In fact, that might just drive any such problems deeper and further out of sight.

 

[outofthedark]

Maria should be adopted into a stable family. She doesn't have much of a future living solely on government benefits.

 

[Tugela]

I saw no "nice little economy" anywhere.

That's where the baby trafficking doesn't hold up. IMO,

They are all literally dirt poor.


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Well, look at what the people from the village themselves say here:

Neighbour Stoyan Kolev, 42, told the Daily Mail said: ‘It is very common for Roma women from this village to go to Greece and sell their children there.

‘Women go to Greece when they are about six months pregnant. They give birth there, they sell the child and then they come back.

Gypsy children are sold for just £4,000, Mr Kolev, himself a Roma gypsy, claimed.

Mrs Boyanova added: ‘I know a girl from this village who has sold two of her children in Greece. Her mother married her off to a man from a nearby town, Nova Zagora. He beat her and forced her to go to Greece and sell their child.’

So they are just poor? Not! They are selling their children because that is probably the main source of revenue for their village.

Consider this: Ruseva doesn't know the name of the woman she left her child with. The family in Greece doesn't know who Ruseva is, instead they only talk about this "Michaelis" person, while the mother is just generically a Bulgarian prostitute - no mention of all the time they spent picking olives/oranges/whatever together.

Yet these people apparently spent time together, or so they claim, but they do not know each other's names?? And even so, they still exchange a baby? How stupid do they think we all are? These are excuses and lies they are telling us, and they can't even tell us the same excuses and lies.

They can't tell us what really happened because both families know they will go to jail if they do. So we get this "I'm so poor, I'm illiterate, it wasn't my fault, I had no choice" whine followed by tears, and we are supposed to say "oh you poor thing!". Hell no!!!

And get this: the documentation to take Maria (actually, the Rusevas apparently had no name for her, she is just "the girl") home would have cost 15 Euros, probably way less than what it cost for SASHA to get home. So, she could take herself home, but not her daughter. Really?

Read that article. There is all sorts of information in there.

 

[Tugela]

well that's not a bad thing lots of people to love them.

Also lots of people top cover up whatever bad things might be going on there. Relatives stick together, especially a village of them.

 

[Tugela]

Hopefully, an open-minded investigation will figure these things out. Speculation based on prejudice, stereotypes and the actions of a few won't help. In fact, that might just drive any such problems deeper and further out of sight.

It is not "Speculation based on prejudice, stereotypes and the actions of a few". These things have been reported in media by journalists who have interviewed people in the respective towns and statements by the lawyers for the Greek family. So we know a fair bit about the people involved in this story.

This case has come to the world's attention, so rest assured, the local authorities are going to be paying very close attention to these people.

They have probably had this little racket going on for quite some time, but, because they are a marginalized part of general society, no one has given a damn and let them largely do it without interference. This case is going to change that, the spotlight is on them, and this WILL stop. People are probably going to go to jail.

 

[Sherwood Park]

Well, look at what the people from the village themselves say here:









So they are just poor? Not! They are selling their children because that is probably the main source of revenue for their village.

Consider this: Ruseva doesn't know the name of the woman she left her child with. The family in Greece doesn't know who Ruseva is, instead they only talk about this "Michaelis" person, while the mother is just generically a Bulgarian prostitute - no mention of all the time they spent picking olives/oranges/whatever together.

Yet these people apparently spent time together, or so they claim, but they do not know each other's names?? And even so, they still exchange a baby? How stupid do they think we all are? These are excuses and lies they are telling us, and they can't even tell us the same excuses and lies.

They can't tell us what really happened because both families know they will go to jail if they do. So we get this "I'm so poor, I'm illiterate, it wasn't my fault, I had no choice" whine followed by tears, and we are supposed to say "oh you poor thing!". Hell no!!!

And get this: the documentation to take Maria (actually, the Rusevas apparently had no name for her, she is just "the girl") home would have cost 15 Euros, probably way less than what it cost for SASHA to get home. So, she could take herself home, but not her daughter. Really?

Read that article. There is all sorts of information in there.

What I'm confused about is, who are these Roma women (men ?) selling their babies too? Are they selling their babies to other Roma families or are they selling them to Europeans? I'm not sure I understand why Europeans would resort to purchasing babies when they could instead, legally adopt other European children. I know adoption is more costly and takes longer, but at least this option is legal.

 

[gitana1]

My question to the people who want to send Maria back to either of the two families is this:

Who the hell is "Michaelis"?

And why is he keeping tabs on Maria? (this is the guy that the Greek family claimed left her there, periodically visited, even after the couple was taken into custody, according to their lawyer).

Reporters who visited the bio-parents village report neighbors as claiming that it was common for pregnant women of the village to go to Greece to have babies, and leave them there for a fee. Who is buying these babies? Presumably not the Greek Roma, who probably enough babies of their own. So who then? And what role does "Michaelis" play? Is he the trafficker that organizes all this? Is the Greek village the place where the women are kept until they give birth?

We hear reports of bio-mom being arrested twice in Greece on suspicion of baby selling, one of which coincides with the approximate time Maria was apparently left there.

There is something evil going on here. On the face of it, it appears that the Bulgarian village has a nice little economy going on supported by selling their children. And individuals in the Greek village are participating on the other end. That is why there are so many lies and no one wants to really talk about it.

How do we know that this "Michaelis" individual does not own Maria, and will not come back some day to recover his "investment" when she is old enough?

That is why she should not go back to either of these communities.

Gypsies do not give or sell their children to outsiders. They do not adopt them out to non-Gypsies. The abject poverty of these people belies the statement that they are making money selling children.

And there has been zero proof after all this hoopla, that there has been any "selling" of children except possibly this child.

Maria should be adopted into a stable family. She doesn't have much of a future living solely on government benefits.

How many poor kids are in the world? How many living on benefits? How many poor Gypsy kids are there like Maria? If living on government benefits was a threshold for yanking kids from their homes, watch out.

It's very hard for me to understand the logic as it seems like telling lots of stories that can't possibly all be true at the same time just makes people look guiltier and gives everybody more opportunities, not fewer, to implicate them in some wrong doing.

I know. It's frustrating to me as well. They live in such a different, parallel world with a completely different set of laws and legal council (the Kris), many are illiterate or totally ignorant of the laws of the society they live among. Many do not even speak the language of the people of the country they are in, because they consider themselves a nation, albeit a migrant one, so their language goes with them. They are generally sharp, but not legally sophisticated. For centuries, lying and telling various stories to outsiders has protected them. It certainly has not in this case.

I've read that Islam is one of the common religions among Roma. Now I think that the Koran doesn't actually mention circumcision, but I'm pretty sure it's in a widely accepted text about laws governing hygiene, etc. Do Roma practicing Islam routinely forgo circumcision?

Islam is a religion that some Gypsies practice. But the majority are Christian. Gypsies who practice Islam do sometimes circumcise their kids, in certain countries, as I have seen. However, I was giving a general example about how the practices of one culture may seem insane by another. Hopefully that's clear.

I have absolutely no idea, since i can't find anything reported on them.
But she isn't related to any of those children.

They are her siblings nevertheless. To her, to them and to the group as a whole.

[bbm]

That's the issue I have. The 'culture' seems to revolve around lying, thieving, and defrauding. Yes, I am judgmental of that. Anyone here who does not participate in a criminal lifestyle is judgmental of it just by virture of choosing not to do it.

Are we supposed to be ok with this just because it's the 'culture'?

By many accounts, the criminality is not isolated but is a way of life.

Linking it to poverty is not an acceptable reason for it to continue. I understand the Roma people have evolved this way due to history but that doesn't make it ok.

This post is not a personal attack on anyone but an attempt to understand more through discussion (especially you Gitana because I think you're awesome!).

Thanks, LadyL.

The culture does not revolve around thieving and defrauding. Much of my research is about Gypsy criminality. It is a stereotype. Most work in things like entertainment, animal trading, auto repair and trading, psychic work, tinkering, home repair, migrant farm work, factory work, etc., etc. The types and levels of criminality are low and not as widespread as so many keep repeating.

Some resort to criminality because few want to give them a job. As you can see, racism against Gypsies is so entrenched, it can be impossible to rise above.

I am not sure how to make any clearer-the adoption was not legal. In fact under Greek law it's considered an abduction. So extended family of Greek Romas doesn't have any rights to the child.

That may not be true. They may have laws that determine something close to the best interest of the child and that might include staying with the extended family of the de facto adoptive parents.

:floorlaugh:

I;m not sure what is funny. "Gypsy" is an ethnicity or heritage in the same way Irish, Italian or Arab is. They come from India, about 2000 years a ago and speak a language close to Sanskrit and Hindi.

Wow, so little Maria is Roma. That's pretty cool. I like stories that defy prejudice and pre-conceived notions.

Her gypsy foster parents, as they were, told the truth after all. Also cool and flying in the face of stereotypes.

Now as to what happens to all of them, I can't even being to guess. What a giant mess.

The Greece authorities are probably disappointed that they didn't recuse a kidnapped caucasian child from the clutches of evil gypsies. Turns out she was merely passed on to another clan member like any other member of her tribe would be if times/circumstances called for it.

She looks loved to me by the people in her foster family (and extended foster family).

Here's a link with videos that I haven't seen before. What a cute, cute girl.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_1...dentifies-mother-of-mystery-gypsy-girl-maria/

There were posts talking about how sad-faced Maria was despondent because all the joy of childhood had been sucked from her by the evil Gypsy child stealers. I hope those who felt that way watch the videos at your link of clean, well-groomed, chubby-cheeked, smiling and laughing little Maria who appears adored.

How many gypsies did Hitler murder?
I know it was a lot!

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Between about 250 thousand to 2 million. It just so happens that my other research was on exactly this - precisely, Gypsy reparations for the Holocaust.

It was reported that she is a gypsy child that was physically and psychologically neglected in the Greek Roma home where she was living. Permanent foster care is a terrible idea, but how can she live with an adoptive family given her early childhood. It seems almost as though she should be returned to the only family that she has ever known, and her family should be supported so that the children; she and her younger siblings, can be monitored and educated, provided with food, clothing and roof over the head, if necessary. It looks like they have a roof over their heads, but it's not really big enough for the whole family. I say return her to her family, let her parents out of jail, and support the family that sold her ... donations should come ... especially the 800 or 8000 families from all over the world that showed interest in claiming a true blond.

Perhaps you should watch the videos linked to above. The Greek authorities appeared to have been operating under the same bias that has affected the Roma for two thousand years. So they interpreted Maria as abused and neglected. But their story kept changing: First she only spoke a few words at all. Then, she spoke only Romani. First she was "confused" and then, showed appreciation for the "kindnesses" shown to her, acting them out with her dolls. Later, it comes out that she cried every night and doesn;t like the food being given to her.

I don;t trust a damn thing those people say about this Gypsy kid. Not at this point. I never saw one sign of "abuse" or neglect. Just some poverty.

During WW2, not only were the gypsies rounded up, but Jewish people and people with a mental defects (such as Down's Syndrome) were sent to concentration camps. Twins were especially valuable to Josef Mengele at Auschwitz. Approximately six million Jewish people were murdered. Add to that, everyone that was not blond haired, blue eyed and perfect.

That's no excuse for selling a Bulgarian child in a Greek olive grove. It appears to me that absence of education, nutritious food, and accommodations has contributed to this story.

When people adopt a child in the United States, they often pay thousands for the child. What these people did was legal under the laws of their own nation and was likely not buying and selling to them. It was just outside the Greek system.

This case has made me look up Roma to learn more. There are a few videos of them dancing together in their homes. Young and old, very happy. They are a beautiful loving bunch of people with some really wise customs, such as not washing tops with bottoms. That's something I find disgusting too, and I'm not even Roma.

That's a trait I have from my heritage. I always use two towels - above the waist and below!

I wouldn't like to see her returned to the people who have raised her so far until there is some explanation about the other children they're registered as being parents to. Weren't there 14 other children registered in 10 months that are nowhere to be seen? I'm sure I read news stories about that but I'm on my phone and I'm hving trouble with some links.

In most countries, children are not taken from their families if the family is involved in welfare fraud. However, if they are not legal guardians, and are involved in fraud, it is unlikely this family will get the kid back.

 

[Tugela]

Gypsies do not give or sell their children to outsiders. They do not adopt them out to non-Gypsies. The abject poverty of these people belies the statement that they are making money selling children.

And there has been zero proof after all this hoopla, that there has been any "selling" of children except possibly this child.

Gypsies might not, but I don't think you can speak for these individuals and these communities. Only the evidence can do that, and so far the evidence suggests that they are.

In any culture you have the "rules of behaviour", and then you have people and groups of people within that culture who are willing to break those rules. You can't make the assumption that because the body does one thing, that all the components of that body are doing it as well. If you believed that, then you would have to believe that no one ever committed any sort of crime, just because their culture did not condone committing crime.

 

[Brightbird]

Well, look at what the people from the village themselves say here:

So they are just poor? Not! They are selling their children because that is probably the main source of revenue for their village.

Consider this: Ruseva doesn't know the name of the woman she left her child with. The family in Greece doesn't know who Ruseva is, instead they only talk about this "Michaelis" person, while the mother is just generically a Bulgarian prostitute - no mention of all the time they spent picking olives/oranges/whatever together.

Yet these people apparently spent time together, or so they claim, but they do not know each other's names?? And even so, they still exchange a baby? How stupid do they think we all are? These are excuses and lies they are telling us, and they can't even tell us the same excuses and lies.

They can't tell us what really happened because both families know they will go to jail if they do. So we get this "I'm so poor, I'm illiterate, it wasn't my fault, I had no choice" whine followed by tears, and we are supposed to say "oh you poor thing!". Hell no!!!

And get this: the documentation to take Maria (actually, the Rusevas apparently had no name for her, she is just "the girl") home would have cost 15 Euros, probably way less than what it cost for SASHA to get home. So, she could take herself home, but not her daughter. Really?

Read that article. There is all sorts of information in there.

Nowhere in that article does anyone from the village say that Sasha sold Maria. That's all alleged by the police and, frankly, I'm sceptical about the evidence they have. Where does it say that selling children is the main source of revenue?

And if there is a market in Roma babies, why is no-one outraged by the people that exploit Roma mothers? What about the couples who buy these children and create the market? Or the middle men who organise it and profit from it? How do we know Roma women aren't mislead by the middle men? I don't understand why so much anger is directed at the Roma. Women don't usually give away or sell their babies without much heartache. I'm beginning to see what Linda7NJ is referring to about the dehumanisation of the Roma.

 

[Tugela]

What I'm confused about is, who are these Roma women (men ?) selling their babies too? Are they selling their babies to other Roma families or are they selling them to Europeans? I'm not sure I understand why Europeans would resort to purchasing babies when they could instead, legally adopt other European children. I know adoption is more costly and takes longer, but at least this option is legal.

In Greece it apparently takes many years and isn't cheap. So, if you want a family right now, the black market is the way to go. And they have just recently arrested a couple for buying a Roma baby, so at least some of them of buying/selling.

Keep in mind that South Eastern Europeans don't look all that different, so a Roma kid would not be that out of place if they did not have the language/accent/culture. I doubt they would be able to adopt out Roma babies much in a place like Norway since they would stick out like a sore thumb, but in Greece it would be very realistic.

 

[Tugela]

And if there is a market in Roma babies, why is no-one outraged by the people that exploit Roma mothers? What about the couples who buy these children and create the market? Or the middle men who organise it and profit from it? How do we know Roma women aren't mislead by the middle men? I don't understand why so much anger is directed at the Roma. Women don't usually give away or sell their babies without much heartache. I'm beginning to see what Linda7NJ is referring to about the dehumanisation of the Roma.

That is because they are outsiders and extremely poor. People who live under those conditions generally don't get much sympathy from the state or society in general. That is not unique to places like Bulgaria and Greece, it happens in the US as well - just go to any slum and you will see it. There are lost people in every society, and no one will help them.

Frankly, I am not interested in the heartache of parents who sell their children, no matter what their circumstances. It is never an acceptable excuse - I expect a parent to be willing to die for their child when the going gets tough, not sell them. The only ones who count in a situation like this are the victims - the children who are sold.

 

[Elley Mae]

My question to the people who want to send Maria back to either of the two families is this:

Who the hell is "Michaelis"?

And why is he keeping tabs on Maria? (this is the guy that the Greek family claimed left her there, periodically visited, even after the couple was taken into custody, according to their lawyer).

Reporters who visited the bio-parents village report neighbors as claiming that it was common for pregnant women of the village to go to Greece to have babies, and leave them there for a fee. Who is buying these babies? Presumably not the Greek Roma, who probably enough babies of their own. So who then? And what role does "Michaelis" play? Is he the trafficker that organizes all this? Is the Greek village the place where the women are kept until they give birth?

We hear reports of bio-mom being arrested twice in Greece on suspicion of baby selling, one of which coincides with the approximate time Maria was apparently left there.

There is something evil going on here. On the face of it, it appears that the Bulgarian village has a nice little economy going on supported by selling their children. And individuals in the Greek village are participating on the other end. That is why there are so many lies and no one wants to really talk about it.

How do we know that this "Michaelis" individual does not own Maria, and will not come back some day to recover his "investment" when she is old enough?

That is why she should not go back to either of these communities.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/25/childless-couple-arrested-greece-roma-baby-maria

The couple arrested in Athens on Wednesday allegedly paid a Roma woman €4,000 ($£3,400) for the baby, a Greek police statement said. Authorities are looking for the baby's birth parents and potential intermediaries in the alleged transaction.

bbm "Michaelis ?

On Wednesday, another Roma couple were charged with child abduction on the eastern Greek island of Lesvos, after police found them with a baby boy that was not their own. The couple allegedly told authorities that they were childless and had been given the baby by a Roma woman in Athens who had five children of her own and took pity on them.

 

[gitana1]

Roma/Romani, but not Gypsy.
Gypsy is incorrect because the Roma/Romani are not from Africa, they are not Egyptians and should never be referred to as such.

Roma are Gypsies. It is just another name for them. Many (like my people), do not mind the name. But you are right. It derived from the belief that they were Egyptians and is a play on that word. Many Gypsies did indeed, migrate through the middle east on their way to Europe so the name made even more sense a thousand years ago or so.

The Roma are a subset of the Romani, centralized in South Eastern Europe. They are approximately 50% Indian and 50% European, and have been genetically isolated for a long time (which, btw, means that the baby snatching paranoia is completely misplaced with respect to the Roma themselves).

The traditional Romani groups in western and northern Europe are mostly European in terms of their heritage, with much less Indian DNA. They have Romani culture, but their DNA is local. Some groups, such as the Welsh Romani, are apparently entirely European. To achieve that, they must have had very extensive mixing with the local populations of the areas they live in.

The Roma mixed with local populations when they first arrived in South Eastern Europe, but after that they didn't, which is different from how the Romani evolved in other areas of Europe.

There are also Romani groups in the middle east and Africa.

I'm not sure where you are getting all this. Roma are not a subset of the Romani people. They are just different words for the same thing. My family are Calo but we are also Rom (or plural Roma).

Gypsies are not 50% Indian and 50% European blood. They are Romani, a distinct subgroup related to Indians. Roma in western and northern Europe are not mostly European in terms of their heritage, with much less Indian DNA. Their DNA remains that of the Roma. My family is from a western group and I have a few that appear almost black. Yes, over time there has been some intermarrying but very limited. It's still quite taboo.

The Welsh Romani are not entirely European. Their culture has almost disappeared, though. Not only are there Roma groups in the middle east and Africa, they are all over the world, including North and South America.

 

[gitana1]

Some Spanish Gypsies:

I'm not seeing 50% European blood.

(BTW, one of them pictured is an uncle of mine!)

 

[revampz]

I am not saying that this is what is going on, in fact I doubt it.....but I know what the adoption process is like here in Australia and I could see how baby selling could be a lucrative business and that there would be MANY couples who would consider it, even if it is illegal.

I have two friends here who can not have kids. Both couples would be absolutely wonderful parents....one lot owned a cattle station and had the money the personalites everything, but at 35 he was deemed too old and ruled out...they were heartbroken...and this was after they were on the list for years...they were put on the list when he wasn't too old.

The waiting list here goes for years. The second couples story is awful. Both were very big (weight) and got tired of being on the list here, so they tried China thru an agency here only to be told they were too big!!! So both had their stomachs stapled and have lost heaps of weight, but in the mean time the authorites have made in really hard to now adopt chinese children, so they put in for ethiopan children and just recently that has been stopped as well in Australia. 60 minutes recently featured a show on a couple who had been on the waiting list for an ethiopan child for something like 10 years, only to get to the top of the list and have Australia change the adoption system for ethiopan children......

I really don't understand it, in china they are abandoning girl babies because of the one child policy and in African countries they are literally starving.............there are so many children out there who are not being cared for or loved and so many childless couples who would give everything to love and care for them but for some reason bureaucrats make it virtually impossible.........crazy stupid world.

 

[Brightbird]

That is because they are outsiders and extremely poor. People who live under those conditions generally don't get much sympathy from the state or society in general. That is not unique to places like Bulgaria and Greece, it happens in the US as well - just go to any slum and you will see it. There are lost people in every society, and no one will help them.

Frankly, I am not interested in the heartache of parents who sell their children, no matter what their circumstances. It is never an acceptable excuse - I expect a parent to be willing to die for their child when the going gets tough, not sell them. The only ones who count in a situation like this are the victims - the children who are sold.

I'm well aware that Roma are ostracised, which is why I'm sceptical about some of the allegations against these communities in Bulgaria and Greece.

One of these allegations is the selling of Bulgarian Roma babies to non-Roma in Greece. There are many reasons why this allegation should be viewed sceptically. There are myths about Roma engaging in immoral practices and this is looking like an example of that. Gitana has explained that it's taboo to send Roma children outside the culture. It's pretty clear it's not lucrative so it can't be to get rich. And as you point out, it goes against parental instinct. So either it's a complete fabrication, it's informal adoption among Roma, or it's true. If it's true I'm very interested in what would lead these women to sell their babies, against cultural rules and human instinct, for not much money. Something is very wrong if it's true.

 

[pukasonqo2]

How many gypsies did Hitler murder?
I know it was a lot!



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about one million. hard to establish numbers as the roma don't talk about what they call the "porraimos" (the devouring).