Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[Sherwood Park]

Because a crime has been committed and the truth is not known yet. Is that not the purpose of this board?

Exactly, and with a case like this culture/race/economics/immigration can't be separated from the situation. The topic of Roma culture in Europe is a major part of this case as this is how this entire situation with "Maria" began.

The case is not closed, it is still evolving. The J. Ramsey case has been "closed" for over a decade, but there are WS posts/threads that are still active.

 

[Elley Mae]

Maria's Bulgarian mother denies selling her daughter

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_27/10/2013_525054

Ruseva and her mentally ill husband Atanas, 38, have another nine children, five of whom are also fair-skinned and blonde in contrast to their parents' dark complexions and brownish-black hair.

"I am not a criminal,» Ruseva pleaded, saying that she was now «scared» by the possibility of going to jail.

If found guilty of selling her daughter, she risks a prison term of up to six years.

 

[Oblio]

I don't think she was sold. If she sold Maria, what would stop her from selling the others? She has nine other kids, five of them blonde.

Maybe she felt really burdened/overwhelmed when she had her, or maybe she really couldn't get the documentation together to take her home. Whichever it was, I don't think she sold her.

 

[pieper4]

Is 'mentally ill' a new addition? We heard he was allegedly hitting the bottle pretty hard, but I don't recall anything previously about mentally ill. May just be an interpretation (alcoholism) ?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Is 'mentally ill' a new addition? We heard he was allegedly hitting the bottle pretty hard, but I don't recall anything previously about mentally ill. May just be an interpretation (alcoholism) ?

Yep new addition.

As is the accusation that the child "was abused" and acts like a "beast"


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[pieper4]

Yep new addition.

As is the accusation that the child "was abused" and acts like a "beast"


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If these quotes come from foreign media sources, I tend to chalk them up to 'translation'... i.e. - perhaps the word for 'rambunctious' in Bulgarian translates to 'beast' at face value.
There is just no way to know without being proficient in the language(s) and their nuances. KWIM?

 

[Elley Mae]

Maria's mother tearfully denies selling child

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...as-mother-tearfully-denies-selling-child.html

"I am not a criminal," she insisted adding that she was terrified of going to jail. She faces charges of selling her daughter, a crime that carries a prison term of up to six years.

"I just want to have a house and live there with Maria and my other children, and to care for them all," she added.


"I met a blonde lady one day and we started talking and she told me, 'why don't you leave this kid to me, I don't have kids and I have a comfortable place and the kid can live better with me than the way you live'," Mrs Ruseva claimed during an appearance with her husband Atanas, 38, and three of their children, on private Bulgarian television station TV7 Sunday.



bbm, I searched for video of this show but I can't find it yet. Karbovski Show

 

[Elley Mae]

Bulgaria Mulls Fate of Roma Girl Maria, Her Siblings

http://www.novinite.com/articles/154981/Bulgaria+Mulls+Fate+of+Roma+Girl+Maria,+Her+Siblings

The State Agency for Child Protection will convene a meeting of experts to decide when to bring back to Bulgaria little blonde Roma girl Maria.

bbm

 

[dotr]

Every group has some that make it difficult for the others.
http://blazingcatfur.blogspot.ca/2013/09/la-presse-gypsies-granted-canadian.html

http://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/p...1-la-criminalite-des-roms-inquiete-ottawa.php

 

[patty24]

I've been following this case and there is an interview the mother did at CNN studios: Mom has a lot to say, dad remains silent....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/world/europe/bulgaria-roma-parents/index.html?hpt=wo_c2

 

[dotr]

I've been following this case and there is an interview the mother did at CNN studios: Mom has a lot to say, dad remains silent....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/28/world/europe/bulgaria-roma-parents/index.html?hpt=wo_c2

Heartbreaking story all around. This woman 's story has the ring of truth imo.
Wish her husband would lift a hand to help with those crying children while the birth mom, tries to give a tv interview. he looks very well fed. imo.

 

[gxm]

BBM.

I;m not sure I understand. I never said this family was law abiding. I don;t think anyone has.

Also, it is certainly true that not legally adopting the child (at least legally in Greece, because it was likely legal in their Roma nation), led to the child being ripped from the only family she has ever known. That's true. If not for their actions in not following Greek law, this kid would possibly have been returned to them.

However, the point some of us were making is twofold:
1. Maria should be able to go back to her de facto extended family, at least. They can then go through the proper procedures to become legal guardians.
2. It is not the actions of this family alone, that led to Maria being taken from them. Because that camp was likely chock full of kids who weren't legally adopted by the people caring for them. The only kid taken was Maria. Why? Because she appeared white. And for many of us, that is implementing the law in a biased manner and that is not right.

Finally, I keep hearing how criminals shouldn;t have kids. There are millions of kids whose parents have had a DUI, or a theft charge or drug charge or domestic violence, prostitution or other fighting charge, etc. Criminal charges are not enough to take a child from his or her family.

However, they certainly will likely preclude Maria from returning to this family, if the charges stick, because they are not biologically related.

IMO, all the children without documentation should be checked out, not just the blonde ones. Children should not be treated as furniture that you give away to the neighbors because it doesn't fit in the moving van. JMO. OMO. MOO.

 

[raeann]

IMO, all the children without documentation should be checked out, not just the blonde ones. Children should not be treated as furniture that you give away to the neighbors because it doesn't fit in the moving van. JMO. OMO. MOO.

EXACTLY! We are being "educated" repeatedly that it is perfectly fine for ALL children in the Roma culture to be handed around from family to family with no legal adoption or any consideration for the attachment of the child to their own family. THEN, in absolute direct contradiction to that point, we are being told that this child MUST be returned to the family she was "ripped" away from.

So.....which is it? Is it perfectly fine for Roma children to be passed from family to family like outgrown clothing......or is it a horrible act that the government has taken steps to insure the safety and health of this child by determining where she might best be loved and cared for? At this point, returning her to her supposed adoptive family means that she would have to be placed in JAIL with them. IF she is returned to them after they are at some future time released from jail, according to what we have been "educated" about.....she very likely could be passed on to other families at numerous times in the next few years of her life.

I have studied and read extensively on the Roma culture, I hold absolutely no prejudice or disrespect for them. However, it is diametrically opposed logic to state on the one hand that this cultural tradition of passing children from home to home is perfectly fine. Yet, to also state that this one particular child will be damaged forever if she is not returned to live with her "adoptive" family.

It is also not truthful for posters to continue to state that this is the ONLY family she has ever known. According to the statements of her birth mother, she has lived within at least 3 different family situations in her three years of life. First with her birth mother for seven months, then with the birth mother's room mate, and then transferring AT LEAST one more time to somehow end up with the "adoptive" parents.

also jmo, moo etc.

 

[Oblio]

EXACTLY! We are being "educated" repeatedly that it is perfectly fine for ALL children in the Roma culture to be handed around from family to family with no legal adoption or any consideration for the attachment of the child to their own family. THEN, in absolute direct contradiction to that point, we are being told that this child MUST be returned to the family she was "ripped" away from.

So.....which is it? Is it perfectly fine for Roma children to be passed from family to family like outgrown clothing......or is it a horrible act that the government has taken steps to insure the safety and health of this child by determining where she might best be loved and cared for? At this point, returning her to her supposed adoptive family means that she would have to be placed in JAIL with them. IF she is returned to them after they are at some future time released from jail, according to what we have been "educated" about.....she very likely could be passed on to other families at numerous times in the next few years of her life.

I have studied and read extensively on the Roma culture, I hold absolutely no prejudice or disrespect for them. However, it is diametrically opposed logic to state on the one hand that this cultural tradition of passing children from home to home is perfectly fine. Yet, to also state that this one particular child will be damaged forever if she is not returned to live with her "adoptive" family.

It is also not truthful for posters to continue to state that this is the ONLY family she has ever known. According to the statements of her birth mother, she has lived within at least 3 different family situations in her three years of life. First with her birth mother for seven months, then with the birth mother's room mate, and then transferring AT LEAST one more time to somehow end up with the "adoptive" parents.

also jmo, moo etc.

I think it's more typical for the kids to be passed to people they know, neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I don't feel that she must go back to the "parents". From an attachment point of view, that is the best case scenario. Reality is that that isn't going to happen. The next best, and still culturally appropriate would be for her to go to familiar surroundings. Either with a family she knows, or with the kids she knows as family. Next best after that would be with another Roma family of similar belief structure. Last on the list would be a non Roma stranger adoption.

I see no reason why she can't go with the second option. If it's good enough for the other kids removed, it should be good enough for her.

Of course being returned to her bio family is somewhere up in that sticky mess of logic, but it's pretty far down the list. Still better than a non Roma stranger adoption.

 

[raeann]

I think it's more typical for the kids to be passed to people they know, neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I don't feel that she must go back to the "parents". From an attachment point of view, that is the best case scenario. Reality is that that isn't going to happen. The next best, and still culturally appropriate would be for her to go to familiar surroundings. Either with a family she knows, or with the kids she knows as family. Next best after that would be with another Roma family of similar belief structure. Last on the list would be a non Roma stranger adoption.

I see no reason why she can't go with the second option. If it's good enough for the other kids removed, it should be good enough for her.

Of course being returned to her bio family is somewhere up in that sticky mess of logic, but it's pretty far down the list. Still better than a non Roma stranger adoption.

As a trained child advocate with the court system, I totally agree, and if the system in Greece works as it should, that is exactly what the preferred placement would be -- a direct relative or a familiar family from the Roma culture. It would also have to be considered that psychologists have stated concerns that she has been abused, along with the inadequate care and home situation she was found within. The other children in the family are also to be considered, as they obviously have also been placed elsewhere while the "parents" are in jail. This FACT also directly disputes the claim that this child was taken simply because she was white. The other children were also placed into government care, they were also DNA tested, and they will also need to be placed into appropriate, and preferably Roma homes.

jmo

 

[Fukiyama]

Not knowing any facts, but just from reading about Maria it seems like Bulgaria is a worse country for Roma than Greece.

As the young Bulgarian wife told Rick in Casablanca, "The devil has the people by the throat."

 

[gxm]

I'm just hoping she ends up in a home where she is wanted, and loved, and not neglected and passed around. Poor child, she's had a terrible start in life.

 

[txsvicki]

If the lady in the video of Maria learning the dance as a toddler was the adoptive mom, then she most likely had her from the beginning. She looks like a proud smiling mom, and the bio mom already stated that she recognized this woman on tv. There has to be aunts and maybe a still living MIL that Maria could stay with in Greece. If Greece or Bulgaria allows family of non Roma to care for kids then they should try to find a relative to care for her. One that is not so poor they have no food or clothes. The thing of Roma taking in other Roma kids could simply be their form of foster care because of poverty. No way do I believe that the little terrified crying skinny bio mom kept having a bunch of kids just to sell for money.

 

[Kimster]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT MARIA ONLY!

There is a thread in the Jury Room discussion issues with children living in this culture as a whole. If this thread keeps going off topic, it will be closed for further posting.

 

[pieper4]

I can't help but wonder how this will play out, legally. Maria was born in Greece. Does that mean Greece will retain jurisdiction? Or will Bulgaria because bio-Mom resides in Bulgaria? Or, because both families are Roma, are there additional considerations legally, such as neither being considered a legal resident of their respective countries? Both families have legal charges pending. Both have issues with the 'fathers' (one charged/tried? for armed robbery and the other 'mental illness'). Is Bulgaria Dad the proven bio-Dad?
The video posted up thread with bio-Mom, husband, and two young kids was hard to watch. 'Dad' seemed more interested in some schmutz on his pant leg than helping with the squalling, scared kids. The blonde child clearly has an eye problem (common w/albinism). It's all so tough to fathom. For me.