Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[Fukiyama]

What I'm confused about is, who are these Roma women (men ?) selling their babies too? Are they selling their babies to other Roma families or are they selling them to Europeans? I'm not sure I understand why Europeans would resort to purchasing babies when they could instead, legally adopt other European children. I know adoption is more costly and takes longer, but at least this option is legal.

If "Europeans" who cannot have children themselves want babies, they by necessity need to look elsewhere because their fellow "Europeans" by and large aren't interested in having babies.

 

[fruity]

As I said in the other thread, to me the issue is whether they paid for her. And that's going to be hard to prove. Looking at Maria's biological family, if they did buy her it's obvious they didn't pay much money. They're not exactly living it up. Having said that, Roma or non-Roma, that's my personal line. I find it hard to have sympathy or tolerance for people paying money for children (whether it involves a legally binding document or not).

I'm not talking about paying money for plane fares, adoption agency fees etc (which run into the tens of thousands). I know these things are not part of Roma adoption/fostering I'm talking about payment for the child, no matter how much.

To open a can of worms - does surrogacy come into this? It's uncomfortable to think about and it makes me examine my opinions pretty deeply. Where is the line? Is it okay to pay for medical expenses? Emotional suffering? Ensuring the ability to have counselling at a later date?

 

[Darcyline]

Thanks button not enough-than you gitana1 for very clearly and patiently addressing some of the stereotypes and prejudices and misconceptions involved in this case. Following the news about it has made me very sad, not just for Maria, but also because I feel like some of the "opinions" have been everything from ignorant to downright hateful. You have helped address some of those issues much more eloquently than I ever could.

 

[Oblio]

This case is actually about a little girl that was found in a home where the people living there did NOT have legal custody of her. According to their laws, it is illegal. The LE went in and did what they needed to do, according to law. culture or no culture unfortunately the law is the law. I hope the LE continue the job they are doing... Their job.

What you are omitting here is that there is no legal path for Roma live by their own traditions and rules in Greece. Had they gone through normal channels, Maria very likely would not have been adopted by a Roma family.

Roma are a widespread, non homogenous, landless, ethnic population. Traditions and religions vary, but there is one very common thread among them. They can't trust the outside world. If they're going to give up a child, short term or long term, they're going to do it within their own population, by their own rules or laws. And yes, those rules and laws are going to conflict with most of the laws in the countries they reside in.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What you are omitting here is that there is no legal path for Roma live by their own traditions and rules in Greece. Had they gone through normal channels, Maria very likely would not have been adopted by a Roma family.

Roma are a widespread, non homogenous, landless, ethnic population. Traditions and religions vary, but there is one very common thread among them. They can't trust the outside world. If they're going to give up a child, short term or long term, they're going to do it within their own population, by their own rules or laws. And yes, those rules and laws are going to conflict with most of the laws in the countries they reside in.

Like tribal law and what's left of the Native American population. adopting a native child is extremely difficult.




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[Sherwood Park]

In Greece it apparently takes many years and isn't cheap. So, if you want a family right now, the black market is the way to go. And they have just recently arrested a couple for buying a Roma baby, so at least some of them of buying/selling.

Keep in mind that South Eastern Europeans don't look all that different, so a Roma kid would not be that out of place if they did not have the language/accent/culture. I doubt they would be able to adopt out Roma babies much in a place like Norway since they would stick out like a sore thumb, but in Greece it would be very realistic.

Thanks for the explanation, but to clarify, I wasn't focusing on "physical" features (skin colour, hair colour, etc.). I was more curious as to what was happening in Europe that was causing a market for child purchasing instead of legal adoption.

Here, "stranger" adoptions take a long time. You have to wait for an available baby and then there is the lengthy legal process, but there is no hot market for purchasing babies because our various laws make it too easy to detect. It might exist, but it certainly isn't a hot market.

Here, A lot of couples adopt internationally and it is quite expensive (legal fees, travel costs and immigration process).

 

[Sherwood Park]

Roma are Gypsies. It is just another name for them. Many (like my people), do not mind the name. But you are right. It derived from the belief that they were Egyptians and is a play on that word. Many Gypsies did indeed, migrate through the middle east on their way to Europe so the name made even more sense a thousand years ago or so.

Gitana1, my point is that using the name Gypsy is inappropriate because Romas are not Egyptian. Egyptians are Africans (not to be confused with the Arabs/Middle Easterns who colonized the country). So now that we know they are not Egyptians, then we should stop calling them Gypsies.

We use the word Roma, and it's variations because that is more appropriate and more accurate than referring to a people group by an Ethnicity to which they don't belong to.

 

[Wendy101]

What you are omitting here is that there is no legal path for Roma live by their own traditions and rules in Greece. Had they gone through normal channels, Maria very likely would not have been adopted by a Roma family.

Roma are a widespread, non homogenous, landless, ethnic population. Traditions and religions vary, but there is one very common thread among them. They can't trust the outside world. If they're going to give up a child, short term or long term, they're going to do it within their own population, by their own rules or laws. And yes, those rules and laws are going to conflict with most of the laws in the countries they reside in.

Wow, imagine what would happen if the rest of the world felt we were above the law. There IS a law there in which they are to follow... If there was no law .. Well then the LE would not be involved with these two families.

BTW your first sentence says it all.. They know it is illegal and they are breaking the law.

 

[Wendy101]

Like tribal law and what's left of the Native American population. adopting a native child is extremely difficult.




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Yup. true. Thats a whole nother ball of wax! IMO.

in my particular area, this "rule" controlled by the chiefs has to do with...wait for it..... MONEY!!

They have no care in the world to hand the child over in a customary care agreement (until they are 18) .. Wanna know why.. Well the Band then can collect head count for that child until he/she is 18... Each child is revenue for the band. Plain, simple truth (for my area).

 

[Linda7NJ]

Wow, imagine what would happen if the rest of the world felt we were above the law. There IS a law there in which they are to follow... If there was no law .. Well then the LE would not be involved with these two families.

BTW your first sentence says it all.. They know it is illegal and they are breaking the law.

Laws evolve as we all hopefully evolve into something better.
Laws change, are repealed, modified all the time.




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[Linda7NJ]

Yup. true. Thats a whole nother ball of wax! IMO.

in my particular area, this "rule" controlled by the chiefs has to do with...wait for it..... MONEY!!

They have no care in the world to hand the child over in a customary care agreement (until they are 18) .. Wanna know why.. Well the Band then can collect head count for that child until he/she is 18... Each child is revenue for the band. Plain, simple truth (for my area).

Ah yes... Because all of those lawyers and adoption agencies are all so altruistic and ethical. ....eyeroll...




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[Wendy101]

Laws evolve as we all hopefully evolve into something better.
Laws change, are repealed, modified all the time.




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Yes, I agree they do.. But.. For these two families unfortunately, they broke todays law that is set up for their country.

 

[gitana1]

This case is actually about a little girl that was found in a home where the people living there did NOT have legal custody of her. According to their laws, it is illegal. The LE went in and did what they needed to do, according to law. culture or no culture unfortunately the law is the law. I hope the LE continue the job they are doing... Their job.

Yeah, I disagree. There are hundreds of Gypsy kids living with people who don't have legal custody of them. Rarely are they removed. Never are the kids thrust into the news in a panicked effort to determine who the thieves stole them from. They are only " doing their job" because Maria is a "blonde angel".

Try finding out what happens to hundreds of trafficked Gypsy kids after the authorities get a hold of them. Tell me how the authorities do their job then, when the kids aren't so white.

 

[Wendy101]

Yeah, I disagree. There are hundreds of Gypsy kids living with people who don't have legal custody of them. Rarely are they removed. Never are the kids thrust into the news in a panicked effort to determine who the thieves stole them from. They are only " doing their job" because Maria is a "blonde angel".

Try finding out what happens to hundreds of trafficked Gypsy kids after the authorities get a hold of them. Tell me how the authorities do their job then, when the kids aren't so white.

I disagree with you also. IMO.. I feel you are too emotionally attached to this culture. most posters here are talking if these TWO particular families. You are so bent on teaching of culture and everything else you fail to realize most of us are speaking of these two families ONLY.

And as much as you seem not to like it, maria does look like a "blonde angel" , just as her biological sister is a "cute lil button" .. mairahs other biological sister that is in one of the other photos is a beautiful girl also... Dark hair, beautiful skin..

 

[gitana1]

For me the problem with the talk of how Romas or Gypsy people would or would not do this, that or whatever else is that we are talking about two specific families here. Based on what has been discovered about these two specific families there are some, and I am one of them, that believe that not only Maria but all other children involved as well would be better off placed in other homes that are not full of criminals. If one looks at the "facts" that have come out about this case then one sees that both sides have told lies concerning how Maria came to be taken in by her "adoptive" family.

For starters her "adoptive" family has said that Maria's mother was a prostitute that gave Maria to them. Then we have Maria's mother say that she gave birth but could not afford to take Maria home so gave her to her roommate to take care of and send home later, but she can't remember the woman's name or when Maria was actually born. The "adoptive" parents have their own problems with the law, the husband has an armed robbery charge on his record and the wife filled papers for 6 children that were born in 10 months of one another. The birth mother, or someone with her same name has been charged twice with attempting to sell her children (babies) to other couples and skipped out before going to trial. The "adoptive" parents were involved in a sting operation where guns, drugs, etc were taken from their community. The biological parents left home with their younger children while leaving their 14 and 10 year old children behind because the parents "were afraid of being arrested".

Based on the above I can certainly understand why the two families involved in this case are being questioned and looked at. I can understand why there are people that feel that no child should be left in their care, biological or not. This does not involve all of the Roma or Gypsy people, this involves these two families.

MOO

But it's not about these two specific families. It is about how Gypsies are treated by society as a whole, how biases affect how the law is applied to them and how issues of things like what it means to be white, or who is worthy of the protections of the law, are determined. A Gypsy camp was raided. That happens a lot. Many times children not belonging to the people caring for them, are found. None are treated like Maria and her de facto family.

thanks gitana,i was going by what isabel fonseca wrote and what tony gatliff said in "vengo" regarding the roma woman describing the nazis taking people away, from memory, he commented that the roma do not speak in public about it which does not mean they don't speak about it among themselves.

Got it. But the conferences and protests I was talking about are public!! In general though, I see what you mean. On my Dutch side, my grandparents went through the Nazi occupation and WWII. I asked a lot of questions but they hated talking about it.

As I said in the other thread, to me the issue is whether they paid for her. And that's going to be hard to prove. Looking at Maria's biological family, if they did buy her it's obvious they didn't pay much money. They're not exactly living it up. Having said that, Roma or non-Roma, that's my personal line. I find it hard to have sympathy or tolerance for people paying money for children (whether it involves a legally binding document or not).

I'm not talking about paying money for plane fares, adoption agency fees etc (which run into the tens of thousands). I know these things are not part of Roma adoption/fostering I'm talking about payment for the child, no matter how much.

To open a can of worms - does surrogacy come into this? It's uncomfortable to think about and it makes me examine my opinions pretty deeply. Where is the line? Is it okay to pay for medical expenses? Emotional suffering? Ensuring the ability to have counselling at a later date?

Yeah, I have similar feelings. But I think many of the so called "adoption fees" are just thinly veiled prices. Kids are being illegally snatched from poor families in China routinely, because the market for them is huge.

Gitana1, my point is that using the name Gypsy is inappropriate because Romas are not Egyptian. Egyptians are Africans (not to be confused with the Arabs/Middle Easterns who colonized the country). So now that we know they are not Egyptians, then we should stop calling them Gypsies.

We use the word Roma, and it's variations because that is more appropriate and more accurate than referring to a people group by an Ethnicity to which they don't belong to.

As a Gypsy myself, I can say that you don't speak for all Gypsies. In America, Britain and Spain, the term is used among Gypsies with pride. My publications use the two terms interchangeably. It's similar to the term Indian, when used for Native Americans. Not accurate but some American Indians have claimed it.

I disagree with you also. IMO.. I feel you are too emotionally attached to this culture. most posters here are talking if these TWO particular families. You are so bent on teaching of culture and everything else you fail to realize most of us are speaking of these two families ONLY.

And as much as you seem not to like it, maria does look like a "blonde angel" , just as her biological sister is a "cute lil button" .. mairahs other biological sister that is in one of the other photos is a beautiful girl also... Dark hair, beautiful skin..

I'm a lawyer. I'm very good at divorcing myself from emotion. Even when it comes to my personal heritage. I published two research articles about Gypsies in three, different publications (two journals, one academic magazine). That's hard to do if the research is biased. I researched actual data/facts, speaking with Gypsy LE specialists and combing through databases such as the US Dept. of Justice. I'm sorry if you feel my research is infused with emotionality. I feel I've been academically honest and realistic when it comes to the Roma people as a whole.

 

[LadyL]

Wow just wow....

You said.....

"the reality in this case is that these people live criminal lifestyles and it is not ideal for any child of any race anywhere in the world to live in a home with criminals"

So now you want this family to be held to an even higher standard than even here in the USA

You're social engineering ideas are ....impossible, unrealistic, and demonstrate the astronomical lack of education on this subject. This isn't a personal attack. An observation and comment directed more toward the education system itself.

Ideally, there would be no criminals anywhere in the world. I don't live in an ideal world, and neither do you.





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actually, yeah I do, no one in my life is a criminal but then I don't live in the U.S. so maybe my standards are different

you appear to be saying that it's ok for children to live in a home with criminals

if that were true, foster parents and potential adoptive parents wouldn't have to supply criminal background checks

so I guess the system is just as unrealistic as I am :shrug:

 

[Elley Mae]

I removed 12

posts this morning... please stay on the topic of the thread...

bumping Harmony2's post

 

[Linda7NJ]

actually, yeah I do, no one in my life is a criminal but then I don't live in the U.S. so maybe my standards are different

you appear to be saying that it's ok for children to live in a home with criminals

if that were true, foster parents and potential adoptive parents wouldn't have to supply criminal background checks

so I guess the system is just as unrealistic as I am :shrug:

If you believe that there are not millions of children legally living with criminals ...

Read the post of mine, that you quoted, again.

And and just FYI
fostercare & adoptive criminal background checks and positive findings do not necessarily rule someone out, it depends on the crime.

So yeah, some criminals legally can become adoptive parents and foster parents.


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[TorisMom003]

The following is just one of the reasons why I have a problem with giving Maria back to her "adoptive" parents in this case.

"Both have denied the charges, last week claiming they adopted the child while she was just days old. A defense lawyer said they were motivated by charity after being approached by an intermediary for a destitute foreign mother.

The suspects have also been charged with illegally obtaining official documents such as birth records.

Police allege the Roma woman claimed to have given birth to six children in less than 10 months, while 10 of the 14 children the couple had registered as their own are unaccounted for.

It is unclear whether the children exist or were made up to milk the Greek welfare system. Police say the two suspects received about 2,500 euros ($3,420) a month in subsidies from three different cities."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/greece-mystery-girl_n_4135385.html

This is not normal behavior for people that are just trying to do the right thing for the child. This is criminal activity. There have been more several, more than two or three, stories from the "adoptive" parents as to how they came about having Maria. Now I don't care if the "adoptive" parents are Roma, Gypsy, Green Aliens from Mars........the point is they continue to lie and have committed crimes. If there was nothing shady about how Maria came to be their "daughter" then why continue to lie about the whole ordeal, even to their lawyer?!?!

For me this has nothing to do with the Roma or Gypsy culture. It has everything to do with a child that has been ripped from her "family" because of their criminal activities. It also bothers me that because there are those of us that do not feel Maria should be placed with either family that we are somehow not understanding the Roma/Gypsy culture and are wrong in believing that they should be law abiding citizens. Again, this case is about these two families and a child that deserves to be safe and well loved.

MOO

 

[Brightbird]

This case is actually about a little girl that was found in a home where the people living there did NOT have legal custody of her. According to their laws, it is illegal. The LE went in and did what they needed to do, according to law. culture or no culture unfortunately the law is the law. I hope the LE continue the job they are doing... Their job.

Okay, firstly they have been charged not convicted. Everyone's equal right? So let's give them some chance to make their case and defend themselves. They're charged with abduction and falsifying documents. The latter seems pretty clear cut, but the abduction charge is much more muddy. In part, it seems to come down to the absence of paperwork needed to formalise an adoption. There was some sort of verbal agreement, the details of which are unclear. It will have to be tested in a Greek court of law. The law is not as infallible and fixed as you imply.

I couldn't care less about the false document charges. All over the world, good and bad parents are manipulating social welfare and dodging tax. I forget what the fathers previous charges were, but apparently not serious enough for authorities to take his children away.