Identified! Greece - LIVING 4 year old, with Roma couple, Oct'13 - #2

[Linda7NJ]

The following is just one of the reasons why I have a problem with giving Maria back to her "adoptive" parents in this case.

"Both have denied the charges, last week claiming they adopted the child while she was just days old. A defense lawyer said they were motivated by charity after being approached by an intermediary for a destitute foreign mother.

The suspects have also been charged with illegally obtaining official documents such as birth records.

Police allege the Roma woman claimed to have given birth to six children in less than 10 months, while 10 of the 14 children the couple had registered as their own are unaccounted for.

It is unclear whether the children exist or were made up to milk the Greek welfare system. Police say the two suspects received about 2,500 euros ($3,420) a month in subsidies from three different cities."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/greece-mystery-girl_n_4135385.html

This is not normal behavior for people that are just trying to do the right thing for the child. This is criminal activity. There have been more several, more than two or three, stories from the "adoptive" parents as to how they came about having Maria. Now I don't care if the "adoptive" parents are Roma, Gypsy, Green Aliens from Mars........the point is they continue to lie and have committed crimes. If there was nothing shady about how Maria came to be their "daughter" then why continue to lie about the whole ordeal, even to their lawyer?!?!

For me this has nothing to do with the Roma or Gypsy culture. It has everything to do with a child that has been ripped from her "family" because of their criminal activities. It also bothers me that because there are those of us that do not feel Maria should be placed with either family that we are somehow not understanding the Roma/Gypsy culture and are wrong in believing that they should be law abiding citizens. Again, this case is about these two families and a child that deserves to be safe and well loved.

MOO

What about her psychological & biological siblings?


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[TorisMom003]

Okay, firstly they have been charged not convicted. Everyone's equal right? So let's give them some chance to make their case and defend themselves. They're charged with abduction and falsifying documents. The latter seems pretty clear cut, but the abduction charge is much more muddy. In part, it seems to come down to the absence of paperwork needed to formalise an adoption. There was some sort of verbal agreement, the details of which are unclear. It will have to be tested in a Greek court of law. The law is not as infallible and fixed as you imply.

I couldn't care less about the false document charges. All over the world, good and bad parents are manipulating social welfare and dodging tax. I forget what the fathers previous charges were, but apparently not serious enough for authorities to take his children away.

The father was previously charged with armed robbery.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The father was previously charged with armed robbery.

was he convicted? What happened to his children when that happened?


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[TorisMom003]

What about her psychological siblings?


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Which ones? I assume you mean the real ones and not the 6 that clearly don't exist. So take the other three as well. Both parents should be in jail for their crimes and the children need someone to take care of them in the meantime.

I don't give a rat's behind if the child is blonde haired and blue eyed or brown haired and brown eyed. All of the children from both families need to be removed from the homes and given to families that can and will lawfully take care of them. This is something that I have said previously in this thread as well.

MOO

 

[Linda7NJ]

This reminds me sooooo much of the mentality of many that rush to try and adopt a cute dog they see on the TV news....yet those very same people never get off their butts and go to the pounds to see the countless other adorable dogs... Or do a darn thing about the problem.




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[TorisMom003]

was he convicted? What happened to his children when that happened?


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Good question and one that apparently the media has not decided to post. I know I read an article where the police acknowledged that he had been arrested in the past for armed robbery, yet nothing in the article about if he had been convicted or anything more about it.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Which ones? I assume you mean the real ones and not the 6 that clearly don't exist. So take the other three as well. Both parents should be in jail for their crimes and the children need someone to take care of them in the meantime.

I don't give a rat's behind if the child is blonde haired and blue eyed or brown haired and brown eyed. All of the children from both families need to be removed from the homes and given to families that can and will lawfully take care of them. This is something that I have said previously in this thread as well.

MOO

Ok.. Let's go with that premise.

Who is going to step up and take them all? Should they be all split up? Is someone going to offer a discount for legal adoption that would allow them to remain within their cultures? Can they simply live with a relative while their parents do jail time?




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[TorisMom003]

This reminds me sooooo much of the mentality of many that rush to try and adopt a cute dog they see on the TV news....yet those very same people never get off their butts and go to the pounds to see the countless other adorable dogs... Or do a darn thing about the problem.




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Funny you mention that. My family has ALWAYS adopted from the SPCA. In fact we have taken in at least 5 dogs over the years. One that we have now was saved from a really bad home situation, the other was badly abused before his owner sent him to the SPCA.

If I had the room, the money, I would gladly take in children that needed a good home. Fortunately there are those that have the room, the money and the "do goodness" in them to do so.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Funny you mention that. My family has ALWAYS adopted from the SPCA. In fact we have taken in at least 5 dogs over the years. One that we have now was saved from a really bad home situation, the other was badly abused before his owner sent him to the SPCA.

If I had the room, the money, I would gladly take in children that needed a good home. Fortunately there are those that have the room, the money and the "do goodness" in them to do so.

In my experience, those with the harshest opinions & so quick to judge ...do the least




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[oceanblue]

All I can do is transmit info that years of research and personal experience/heritage reveal about cultural norms. You will be hard pressed to find my use of the terms all or none. But years if researching thousands of criminal databases, among other data, back up my statements.


4. Some Gypsies have begun to be involved in sex trafficking or prostitution. But they do not prostitute themselves. A man or woman who would do such a thing would be cast out of the group.

RS&BBM

Which is it, you don't use terms of all or none, or each and every single gypsy on the planet does not prostitute themselves?

FWIW, I came to this thread to learn about Maria and what is going on with her situation. That is what I care about. I'm not here to be brow-beaten into changing my opinion on anything to do with this situation. Perhaps I need to step away from this for awhile. I'm not the only one who does. I haven't even posted at all in this thread until now.

Maria. That is who I care about.

 

[LadyL]

Would you trust these people with your children?

No, me neither.

[animal rescuer and former CPS volunteer]

 

[txsvicki]

Not knowing any facts, but just from reading about Maria it seems like Bulgaria is a worse country for Roma than Greece. The bio mom was so poor. I hope Maria is not sent to that country. There is so much prejudice. What if she goes to non Roma foster care and is treated badly. I'm confused about her bio teen siblings. Did they actually run away or were they taken into care?

 

[Cappuccino]

Not knowing any facts, but just from reading about Maria it seems like Bulgaria is a worse country for Roma than Greece. The bio mom was so poor. I hope Maria is not sent to that country. There is so much prejudice. What if she goes to non Roma foster care and is treated badly. I'm confused about her bio teen siblings. Did they actually run away or were they taken into care?

They ran away when they realised they were about to be taken into care. Can't say I blame them either. If I was about to be taken into state care in Bulgaria I'd make myself scarce too, and if I was Roma I'd have the same reaction in any European country.

 

[Cappuccino]

This reminds me sooooo much of the mentality of many that rush to try and adopt a cute dog they see on the TV news....yet those very same people never get off their butts and go to the pounds to see the countless other adorable dogs... Or do a darn thing about the problem.




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Its a bit sick, isn't it?

Apparently, Maria will now be sent back to Bulgaria and placed in a children's home. She'd probably be better off if they dropped her off in the nearest forest and let her fend for herself.

 

[pieper4]

If we completely remove "Roma" from this discussion, we are left with some basic facts. A child's DNA matches a woman in Bulgaria. The child is not missing. A nebulous situation of 'stolen/abducted/sold' remains (I personally don't automatically assume every interviewee/interviewer is accurate in their recollections, prejudices and opinions, whether in the US or elsewhere).
So... why is this thread still open? It seems there are those who apply their own cultural perspectives ... then there are those who don't understand it all and simply wonder how the situation can be addressed. More a discussion for social anthropology or sociology than a Sleuthing board.
Just my dos centavos. I, personally, love learning about other cultures. I don't claim to have the answers, but don't like to see snipes. :shrug:

 

[Wendy101]

But it's not about these two specific families. It is about how Gypsies are treated by society as a whole, how biases affect how the law is applied to them and how issues of things like what it means to be white, or who is worthy of the protections of the law, are determined. A Gypsy camp was raided. That happens a lot. Many times children not belonging to the people caring for them, are found. None are treated like Maria and her de facto family.



Got it. But the conferences and protests I was tslking about are public!! In general though, I see what you mean. On my Dutch side, my grandparents went through the Nazi occupation and WwIi. I asked a lot of questions but they gated talking about it.



Yeah, I have similar feelings. But I think many of the so called "adoption fees" ate just thinly veiled prices. Kids are being illegally snatched from poor families in China routinely, because the market for them is huge.



As a Gypsy myself, I can say that you don't speak for all Gypsies. In America, Britain and Spain, the term I used amOng Gypsies with pride. My publications use the two terms interchangeably. It's similar to the term Indian, when used for Native Americans. Not accurate but some American Indians have claimed it.



I'm a lawyer. I'm very good at divorcing myself from emotion. Even when it comes to my personal heritage. I published two research articles about Gypsies in three, different publications (two journals, one academic magazine). That's hard to do if the research is biased. I researched actual data/facts, speaking with Gypsy LE specialists and combing through databases such as the US Dept. of Justice. I'm sorry if you feel my research is infused with emotionality. I feel I've been academically honest and realistic when it comes to the Roma people as a whole.

yeah, I see you have been doing that, but my point was this thread is about a lil girl named maria and two families.

 

[Tugela]

If we completely remove "Roma" from this discussion, we are left with some basic facts. A child's DNA matches a woman in Bulgaria. The child is not missing. A nebulous situation of 'stolen/abducted/sold' remains (I personally don't automatically assume every interviewee/interviewer is accurate in their recollections, prejudices and opinions, whether in the US or elsewhere).
So... why is this thread still open? It seems there are those who apply their own cultural perspectives ... then there are those who don't understand it all and simply wonder how the situation can be addressed. More a discussion for social anthropology or sociology than a Sleuthing board.
Just my dos centavos. I, personally, love learning about other cultures. I don't claim to have the answers, but don't like to see snipes. :shrug:

Because a crime has been committed and the truth is not known yet. Is that not the purpose of this board?

 

[pieper4]

Because a crime has been committed and the truth is not known yet. Is that not the purpose of this board?

My hunch is the whole truth will never be known. We're dealing with two governments and a separate ethnicity only loosely related to either that doesn't share language or laws. The Greeks forked over a boatload of money to non-DNA family. That's a crime. The Bulgarian family has to face the system in Bulgaria in regard to any crimes committed there. Wonder who will end up with jurisdiction...

 

[gitana1]

The following is just one of the reasons why I have a problem with giving Maria back to her "adoptive" parents in this case.

"Both have denied the charges, last week claiming they adopted the child while she was just days old. A defense lawyer said they were motivated by charity after being approached by an intermediary for a destitute foreign mother.

The suspects have also been charged with illegally obtaining official documents such as birth records.

Police allege the Roma woman claimed to have given birth to six children in less than 10 months, while 10 of the 14 children the couple had registered as their own are unaccounted for.

It is unclear whether the children exist or were made up to milk the Greek welfare system. Police say the two suspects received about 2,500 euros ($3,420) a month in subsidies from three different cities."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/greece-mystery-girl_n_4135385.html

This is not normal behavior for people that are just trying to do the right thing for the child. This is criminal activity. There have been more several, more than two or three, stories from the "adoptive" parents as to how they came about having Maria. Now I don't care if the "adoptive" parents are Roma, Gypsy, Green Aliens from Mars........the point is they continue to lie and have committed crimes. If there was nothing shady about how Maria came to be their "daughter" then why continue to lie about the whole ordeal, even to their lawyer?!?!

For me this has nothing to do with the Roma or Gypsy culture. It has everything to do with a child that has been ripped from her "family" because of their criminal activities. It also bothers me that because there are those of us that do not feel Maria should be placed with either family that we are somehow not understanding the Roma/Gypsy culture and are wrong in believing that they should be law abiding citizens. Again, this case is about these two families and a child that deserves to be safe and well loved.

MOO

BBM.

I;m not sure I understand. I never said this family was law abiding. I don;t think anyone has.

Also, it is certainly true that not legally adopting the child (at least legally in Greece, because it was likely legal in their Roma nation), led to the child being ripped from the only family she has ever known. That's true. If not for their actions in not following Greek law, this kid would possibly have been returned to them.

However, the point some of us were making is twofold:
1. Maria should be able to go back to her de facto extended family, at least. They can then go through the proper procedures to become legal guardians.
2. It is not the actions of this family alone, that led to Maria being taken from them. Because that camp was likely chock full of kids who weren't legally adopted by the people caring for them. The only kid taken was Maria. Why? Because she appeared white. And for many of us, that is implementing the law in a biased manner and that is not right.

Finally, I keep hearing how criminals shouldn;t have kids. There are millions of kids whose parents have had a DUI, or a theft charge or drug charge or domestic violence, prostitution or other fighting charge, etc. Criminal charges are not enough to take a child from his or her family.

However, they certainly will likely preclude Maria from returning to this family, if the charges stick, because they are not biologically related.

 

[Tugela]

I just want to caution everyone that reading some things on the Internet may not give totally accurate info. I'm seeing some misinformation relayed as fact (no disclaimers at all). For example, the only large scale genetic testing of Gypsies have linked them to one another, traced their migration patterns and linked them to specific regions in India. No genetic testing gives actual percentages of ethnicity. Articles on the Internet can also often skew academic research data.

There are many researchers who do a sort of "archeology" by looking at DNA to trace out human movement in the ancient past. The Roma are just one of many ethnic groups that have been studied. It is done by looking at thousands of genetic markers in DNA and looking for mutations that are associated with one ethnic group or another. With a large enough data set you can make reasonable conclusions about the level of admixture in a particular population.

There is a blog article published on the Discovery Magazine recently which references some of the papers on the subject. You can read it here.