Guatemala - Nancy Ng, 29, from Monterey Park CA, missing during Yoga Retreat, 19 Oct 2023

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I was only trying to accurately portray (in my interpretation) the difference in what was stated in msm vs the statement made in a prior post that the kayaker had never met Ng until the moment they were in the kayak group, which to me implied the two were not from the same retreat group.

It is my opinion that they were from the same retreat group. Of course, I don’t know for certain, just based on statements such as this:
“Ng's family said they attempted to reach [name withheld] after the incident - first by giving their number to the yoga instructor in charge of the group, then through other contacts. They say they sent two separate emails dated Oct. 25 and Oct. 31. They say [name withheld] didn't respond to any of their pleas for information.” Link

In the end, IMO, how well acquainted the two women were would end up not having much relevance to what happened in the moment while out there on the water. There was nothing more the witness could have done once Nancy went under and didn’t resurface. MOO

Gotcha. I now think the witness was part of yoga retreat, but I doubt they all knew each other well. I think I've seen it reported both ways (that NN and the witness were in the yoga group; also that they didn't know each other - but paddled off in the same direction, apparently).

The problem with Ng's family is that they do not have proof that the Yoga instructor ever passed the information on to this person. Ng's family would like to think they did, but as I will keep saying - the yoga retreat and its instructors have been anything but transparent and forthcoming. Ng's family has done all it could to publicly push this traumatized person into communicating with them. Those emails were not, IMO, sent directly to this witness but to the yoga retreat. Who were these "other contacts"? Their own lawyer? A private investigator?

I don't know about you, but the instant I find out someone has hired a lawyer or a PI in regards to a situation I'm in, I too am going to clam up and lawyer up. Esp in California.

Anyway, the article we're discussing (thank you for linking) says they reached out to the Yoga retreat via email, so I assume the two emails mentioned went to the retreat and not to CB. No where is it established or said that NN's family emailed directly to CB. I understand they are impatient and I too would probably want to speak to the person who last saw my child alive - but, in so many cases, that's not what really happens.

CB sounds as if she followed the advice of authorities in Guatemala and has chosen not to engage in private correspondence with NN's family - which is a wise decision, in this case. I really want to know who those "other contacts" with CB are said to be. Social media? Facebook? Insta? Because I (and many people) never read any of messages on those platforms, except ones prioritized by me in my settings - and that's ONLY people I know - it's like answering unknown callers, I don't know anyone who does that, either).

IMO. So now the family has its answers directly from that person. I hope it helps them heal and I hope CB can also return to coping, however she is coping, with attempting and failing to save someone's life in such dreadful circumstances.
 
That poor woman. What a nightmare. She knew she needed both kayaks for an effective rescue, and I am impressed with her paddling skills that she was able to do what she did. It would be so hard to control both kayaks while also trying to move them toward a person struggling in the water. Esp. with wind, current and chop.

This sounds like it happened very quickly (in 70F water). I would love to hear @RickshawFan 's views on this situation. I don't think it sounds like a long enough time for hypothermia - but I have heard many stories of people drowning when they panicked after realizing "there's no bottom" to push off of. Was it too choppy to try the dead man's float? Did NN know anything about lake water safety/self-rescue techniques? I didn't learn those things until I was older than she was. Well, I knew ABOUT the dead man's float, but knew nothing about when to use it. The other techniques they taught us to avoid drowning involved swimming pools or lakes with gravel bottoms - would not work in our local, silty lakes or in very deep lakes.

I do think the concessions should be proactive and make everyone click on a QR code and watch a 3 minute video before obtaining their equipment (and PFD's should be mandatory). Or something like that.

IMO
I respect that QRCode idea.
This case has awakened my eyes to some of the lack of safety/ignorance that I have experienced in my trips all over the world.
It will not happen again.
 
CB sounds as if she followed the advice of authorities in Guatemala and has chosen not to engage in private correspondence with NN's family - which is a wise decision, in this case. I really want to know who those "other contacts" with CB are said to be. Social media? Facebook? Insta? Because I (and many people) never read any of messages on those platforms, except ones prioritized by me in my settings - and that's ONLY people I know - it's like answering unknown callers, I don't know anyone who does that, either).
snipped & bbm ^

Also my interpretation, but I believe she knew Nancy’s family wanted to speak with her, to get her account (whether or not she read the msgs), but that she “needed time” (link)

“[CB’s*] attorney says his client was traumatized by the experience and needed time.”

MOO
* name withheld by me
 
That poor woman. What a nightmare. She knew she needed both kayaks for an effective rescue, and I am impressed with her paddling skills that she was able to do what she did. It would be so hard to control both kayaks while also trying to move them toward a person struggling in the water. Esp. with wind, current and chop.

This sounds like it happened very quickly (in 70F water). I would love to hear @RickshawFan 's views on this situation. I don't think it sounds like a long enough time for hypothermia - but I have heard many stories of people drowning when they panicked after realizing "there's no bottom" to push off of. Was it too choppy to try the dead man's float? Did NN know anything about lake water safety/self-rescue techniques? I didn't learn those things until I was older than she was. Well, I knew ABOUT the dead man's float, but knew nothing about when to use it. The other techniques they taught us to avoid drowning involved swimming pools or lakes with gravel bottoms - would not work in our local, silty lakes or in very deep lakes.

I do think the concessions should be proactive and make everyone click on a QR code and watch a 3 minute video before obtaining their equipment (and PFD's should be mandatory). Or something like that.

IMO
I don't know anything expert that has to do with water issues. I can say I wouldn't dream of jumping into Lake Atitlán. I've been there.

There's always a possibility that fishing nets or line are just below the surface in a lake and you can get entangled.

I do know there are some things that can go very wrong when you jump into cold water, and not just hypothermia. It shocks your heart in a way that can be fatal. Recall that the kayakers were out there in full sunshine, baking baking baking, in the middle of the day, and they'd been out for a while. On a big lake, water reflecting back at them. This is not a situation where you'd be thinking very clearly, as it is. If it got windy, your brain might not be working well, either. And if they hadn't been drinking water.... And then, a dive into deep cold water (which is a fad, right now, btw).

This is the general drift. I'm not concerned about the 60 degree mark of the water in the analysis, because this was in very hot air/skin conditions, and the brain may already have been doing a number on the kayakers.




Apart from the physics, the fishing nets, the Nessies, toxic ingredients and goddesses of the deep, if you kick away your kayak, you're pretty much toast. Chop and current? No way you're surviving. The witness waged the battle of the valiant, and risked her life to do so (e.g. by putting one leg in Ng's boat: she could have been pulled into the water); I hope the family thanked her profusely for her strength of will and her kindness.
 
I respect that QRCode idea.
This case has awakened my eyes to some of the lack of safety/ignorance that I have experienced in my trips all over the world.
It will not happen again.
IMO the kayak company should have actually issued a PFD to each kayaker and made sure they at least had it aboard.
 
I imagine that the kayak opportunity was a "side trip" from the retreat- expect it was optional. Let us also remember that the kayak rental probably rents out yaks to lots of people every day and most survive(!) so this was unexpected. IMO. NN was thin and tiny - we do not know why she wanted to swim- if she swam all the time at home, if she had her own kayak at home- my (limited) experience in the US is that if you rent a kayak or SUP, you are required to wear a PFD and usually because of insurance, you are required to wear the PFD the rental supplies (even if you have your own good one that fits you better). Really not sure if they were offering PFDs or not or if no one had them so it seemed "not necessary." The lake is so [expletive deleted] deep* that who knows what is on the bottom .

*avrg 505 ft


Lake Atitlán

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Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Lake_Atitlán





1700179801700.jpeg

1700179801713.jpeg

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Geography edit ... The lake has a maximum depth of about 340 metres (1,120 ft) and an average depth of 154 metres (505 ft). ... Its surface area is 130.1 km2 (50.2 ...

Geography · ‎Geological history · ‎Culture · ‎Gallery
 
“While out on lake, Blazek's attorney said the two women chatted and eventually, Ng said she wanted to go for a swim.

"She tried to tell her not to swim because it was rough out there and there was a good current," said Gardner.

According to Blazek, the warning went ignored. Ng went into the water and in the process pushed her kayak away, which Blazek then tried to retrieve.

"She kept one leg in her kayak and one leg in the other kayak and tried to get back to her... and got close to her. And then apparently, she lost the kayak again and she turned around to go back to get the kayak again, and when she turned back around, Ms. Ng was gone."

That article answers pretty much all my questions!
From the article, I gather the kayaks didn’t have painters (rope at the bow for tying), otherwise the witness victim would have been able to use it to hang on to the boat or tie on to her own. As it was, she had to do something very risky to hang on to the two boats.
 
I don't know anything expert that has to do with water issues. I can say I wouldn't dream of jumping into Lake Atitlán. I've been there.

There's always a possibility that fishing nets or line are just below the surface in a lake and you can get entangled.

I do know there are some things that can go very wrong when you jump into cold water, and not just hypothermia. It shocks your heart in a way that can be fatal. Recall that the kayakers were out there in full sunshine, baking baking baking, in the middle of the day, and they'd been out for a while. On a big lake, water reflecting back at them. This is not a situation where you'd be thinking very clearly, as it is. If it got windy, your brain might not be working well, either. And if they hadn't been drinking water.... And then, a dive into deep cold water (which is a fad, right now, btw).

This is the general drift. I'm not concerned about the 60 degree mark of the water in the analysis, because this was in very hot air/skin conditions, and the brain may already have been doing a number on the kayakers.




Apart from the physics, the fishing nets, the Nessies, toxic ingredients and goddesses of the deep, if you kick away your kayak, you're pretty much toast. Chop and current? No way you're surviving. The witness waged the battle of the valiant, and risked her life to do so (e.g. by putting one leg in Ng's boat: she could have been pulled into the water); I hope the family thanked her profusely for her strength of will and her kindness.

It's the kick away the kayak part that is most important, I totally agree. I've done it but I was wearing PFD and the top half of my body was in neoprene. I was jumping in to grab a dog (taking a dog on a kayak is not such a great idea, either). Dog was a "water breed" and lake was flat. I had other people with me, so didn't panic (and I had my lessons on how to get back on a kayak firmly in mind).

The dog made it to the kayak before I did and someone else helped her get into their own kayak. It was a small but very very cold lake. The shock of the water hitting my head was something else, but of course, my head was out of the water almost immediately (thank you PFD, a life jacket would have been better). There was no current or chop that day. No wind at all. Also, someone else stabilized my kayak while I got back on. I still had the upper body strength, back then, to be able to get back on (it doesn't take a lot of strength, but has to be in ratio to the weight of one's, ahem, lower body).

If there was wind and chop and NN dived in deeply, when she came up, she might have had 10-20 yards to swim with current against her. The witness tells a story that makes me think that the kayak was going to be rapidly swept in the opposite direction of where it was needed and the witness did her best to bring the kayak to NN. A group of kayakers would have been a key safety ingredient - because while one person was retrieving the only kayak available for NN (never good to try and pull another person onto a one person kayak in those conditions), other people would have paddled to NN and she could have hung on to their kayak while hers was retrieved.

I hope people do share this story across the internet, because this diving off kayak things is something I'm seeing at local lakes and even in the ocean.

IMO
 
So many things the kayak company could have done differently. For instance, they could have had everyone don the offered PFD's and demonstrated how to fit them, making sure the straps were loosened and then re-tightened onto bodies. This way, everyone knows how they feel (not so bad if they fit), and at the very least they won't become problematic if they want to put them on in the middle of the lake.

The PFD's could also have a carabiner or some other mechanism so that they can be attached to the boat if the kayaker elects not to wear it. There's no reason why every one of those kayaks didn't have a PFD aboard.

And IMO it's absurd not to have a painter. What if a kayaker lost his/her paddle or became incapacitated and needed a tow?

The kayak company could make sure everyone has a water bottle, a long sleeve shirt, and a hat. Any one of these could have made a difference in this situation by minimizing errant thinking out on the water.

The kayak company owners presumably live there long term. They are very much in a position to tell renters what is needed at that location to stay safe.

IMO the goddesses of the deep are owed some libations. It doesn't seem like they give up captives willingly. In places like Lake Atitlán generosity of thinking and largesse go much further than helicopters in getting what you want. Acknowledgement and some give. I regret these have been in short supply in this case.
 
Really not sure if they were offering PFDs or not or if no one had them so it seemed "not necessary."
snipped ^

From Gray Hughes’ video:
IMG_0186.jpeg
it says:
“Life jackets are always offered before the activity starts, and we highly recommend their use. Everyone in the group declined. It is not required by law in this area.” (what the Kayak Guatemala rental place owner has stated)
 
snipped ^

From Gray Hughes’ video:
View attachment 461866
it says:
“Life jackets are always offered before the activity starts, and we highly recommend their use. Everyone in the group declined. It is not required by law in this area.” (what the Kayak Guatemala rental place owner has stated)
The ideas in my post stop short of requiring PFD’s, but make them safe if donned in the water, make them available if there’s an emergency, and impress upon kayakers that PFD’s are the way to go. That, and explicit encouragement in light of known conditions, with a voice of authority, might have gone a long way in preventing this tragedy. IMO
 
I just don't understand how the concessionaire thinks something must be required by law in order to require it of people who rent kayaks.

@RickshawFan, your suggestions are brilliant and of course the concession could have made sure a PFD was attached to each kayak, even if the person refused to wear it. I agree it would send a message.
 
Things don't have to be required by law for a business, itself, to require them. Civil litigation in Guatemala sounds...complicated.


In fairness to the business owner, trying to force customers to do something they don't want to do and isn't required by law is just going to end up in a lot of arguments and customers going elsewhere. And even for those who complied, many would just take them off as soon as they were on the water. We've seen what happened during the pandemic when some stores tried to require masks when it wasn't required by law. (And even when it was.)

Sure, it would be nice if they could have had a PFD attached to each watercraft. But there could be practical difficulties with finding an attachment point that didn't compromise the kayak's integrity, drag in the water, etc. And while it may be possible with a kayak, I don't see how it could be done with the paddleboards. (Most of the yoga group was paddleboarding.)

In the end a business can only do so much to protect people from themselves.
 
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In fairness to the business owner, trying to force customers to do something they don't want to do and isn't required by law is just going to end up in a lot of arguments and customers going elsewhere. And even for those who complied, many would just take them off as soon as they were on the water. We've seen what happened during the pandemic when some stores tried to require masks when it wasn't required by law. (And even when it was.)

Sure, it would be nice if they could have had a PFD attached to each watercraft. But there could be practical difficulties with finding an attachment point that didn't compromise the kayak's integrity, drag in the water, etc. And while it may be possible with a kayak, I don't see how it could be done with the paddleboards. (Most of the yoga group was paddleboarding.)

In the end a business can only do so much to protect people from themselves.

You're right - it would likely result in fewer clients. But that doesn't change the fact that leashes and PFD's could be attached to the kayak and people instructed in their use. The marina I used to kayak out of had a flag for water conditions, so that we were forewarned as to whether it was a calm mild day - or not. Lots of kayak concessions do this.

I have never ever seen anyone argue with a concessionaire over a life preserver being attached to any sort of craft or over PFD's being standard equipment. I can't imagine anyone doing so, but I suppose some people do. I would have all PFD decliners sign a paper releasing liability, but I live in the US (Guatemala does have liability laws - it just doesn't work the way it does here).

There are always attachment points on kayaks, IMO.

1700339475450.png
^ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/life-jackets-prevent-fatalities-1.5128033

I'm referencing the blue one person kayak. Someone has corded it (the criss crosses on the front). That's to tuck stuff into, or at least that's what people do. These people are already wearing PFD. There's similar space in back of the blue kayak. If PFD is slipped underneath the ties in the front, it's easy to grab and toss (from one's own kayak) to a person struggling in the water, so that they can stay alive.

I understand that in today's world, personal preferences have created a Safety Third kind of attitude, often explicitly stated by people who refuse this kind of protection. They want to live life their own way - which they are entitled to do. But I would not be able to take people's money for a dangerous activity on Lake Atitlan and not make PFD available on each of my kayaks. There are lightweight ones that cost about $20. And there are super lightweight, inflatable ones that would easily slip under a cord system (a bit more expensive).

The following is one of the cheapest kayaks I could find for sale online - it has two places to clip, insert or tie a PFD. Sticking one on top of the "trunk" would not cause much more drag than what's already there. If you are right and some people simply do not like the perception that safety comes first or do not believe that the technology works, nothing to do be done. But at least the woman who tried to rescue NN would have had an option available to her and NN might still be alive today.

And I have found other things to criticize about how the Yoga retreat runners AND the concessionaire handled what happens. I think it's only fair to actually examine how things of this sort can be avoided - although, apparently, Lake Atitlan will always be dangerous and a PFD is no guarantee of life.

Belgian man found dead in lake in Guatemala (in June, 23 - went in the Lake and didn't come out - had lived in Guatemala for a few years, was at the lake frequently - nothing about kayaking, apparently just swimming).


1700339869134.png
^manufacturer's stock photo Sun Dolphin Aruba Sit-In Kayak Citrus 10-Feet | Today's Deals
 
I just don't understand how the concessionaire thinks something must be required by law in order to require it of people who rent kayaks.

@RickshawFan, your suggestions are brilliant and of course the concession could have made sure a PFD was attached to each kayak, even if the person refused to wear it. I agree it would send a message.
First thing I learned in Red Cross Senior Life Saving: throw a float to the person in the water. PFD=float.
 
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In fairness to the business owner, trying to force customers to do something they don't want to do and isn't required by law is just going to end up in a lot of arguments and customers going elsewhere. And even for those who complied, many would just take them off as soon as they were on the water. We've seen what happened during the pandemic when some stores tried to require masks when it wasn't required by law. (And even when it was.)

Sure, it would be nice if they could have had a PFD attached to each watercraft. But there could be practical difficulties with finding an attachment point that didn't compromise the kayak's integrity, drag in the water, etc. And while it may be possible with a kayak, I don't see how it could be done with the paddleboards. (Most of the yoga group was paddleboarding.)

In the end a business can only do so much to protect people from themselves.
If you'll notice, in my post I offered suggestions that were irrespective of any requirement. They were just "best practice" ideas that could easily have been accomplished in 5 minutes before group departure. There should be a safety briefing anyway. That isn't required, either.

No PFD on board a kayak would have any impact at all on integrity or drag. You can put it behind the seat, attached with a carabiner. It can go into the foot well. It can be attached to the bungee on the deck. There's nothing dragging.

On a paddleboard, people attach PFD's, dogs, and other devices to the bungees.

FWIW on this trip, a water bottle might have been equally important. Same with a sun shirt and hat. A clear head in advance of decision making would have been a big asset.
 
You're right - it would likely result in fewer clients. But that doesn't change the fact that leashes and PFD's could be attached to the kayak and people instructed in their use. The marina I used to kayak out of had a flag for water conditions, so that we were forewarned as to whether it was a calm mild day - or not. Lots of kayak concessions do this.

I have never ever seen anyone argue with a concessionaire over a life preserver being attached to any sort of craft or over PFD's being standard equipment. I can't imagine anyone doing so, but I suppose some people do. I would have all PFD decliners sign a paper releasing liability, but I live in the US (Guatemala does have liability laws - it just doesn't work the way it does here).

There are always attachment points on kayaks, IMO.

View attachment 462115
^ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/life-jackets-prevent-fatalities-1.5128033

I'm referencing the blue one person kayak. Someone has corded it (the criss crosses on the front). That's to tuck stuff into, or at least that's what people do. These people are already wearing PFD. There's similar space in back of the blue kayak. If PFD is slipped underneath the ties in the front, it's easy to grab and toss (from one's own kayak) to a person struggling in the water, so that they can stay alive.

I understand that in today's world, personal preferences have created a Safety Third kind of attitude, often explicitly stated by people who refuse this kind of protection. They want to live life their own way - which they are entitled to do. But I would not be able to take people's money for a dangerous activity on Lake Atitlan and not make PFD available on each of my kayaks. There are lightweight ones that cost about $20. And there are super lightweight, inflatable ones that would easily slip under a cord system (a bit more expensive).

The following is one of the cheapest kayaks I could find for sale online - it has two places to clip, insert or tie a PFD. Sticking one on top of the "trunk" would not cause much more drag than what's already there. If you are right and some people simply do not like the perception that safety comes first or do not believe that the technology works, nothing to do be done. But at least the woman who tried to rescue NN would have had an option available to her and NN might still be alive today.

And I have found other things to criticize about how the Yoga retreat runners AND the concessionaire handled what happens. I think it's only fair to actually examine how things of this sort can be avoided - although, apparently, Lake Atitlan will always be dangerous and a PFD is no guarantee of life.

Belgian man found dead in lake in Guatemala (in June, 23 - went in the Lake and didn't come out - had lived in Guatemala for a few years, was at the lake frequently - nothing about kayaking, apparently just swimming).


View attachment 462117
^manufacturer's stock photo Sun Dolphin Aruba Sit-In Kayak Citrus 10-Feet | Today's Deals
Yes, even the basic kayakas/padddleboards have bungees. And, you're correct, you just shove stuff under them. I keep an extra paddle and a bilge pump under the bungees.

That bright green cheapie even has a hatch for storing stuff, though you wouldn't put a piece of emergency equipment in there, since you can't conveniently get to it out on the water.

FWIW the blue kayak in the first photo is much more expensive than the green one. It is so gratifying to see folks in PFD's, though!
 
First thing I learned in Red Cross Senior Life Saving: throw a float to the person in the water. PFD=float.

And first thing our kayaking instructor did was teach us to throw a float to a person in the water (us, as he would tip us over randomly in cold Pacific Ocean; we all had PFD and neoprene wetshirts).

I learned right away that my preferred kayaking spot was on Big Island, because I do not like cold water one bit. The concessions on Big Island offered PFD, which we put on the kids, of course (2 two person kayaks, 1 one person kayak - with the idea that we probably wouldn't all go in the water at the same time, and we didn't). Littlest kid was bungied.

This article brings to light some things I didn't think about, such as that entire sides of the crater have sloughed into Lake Atitlan, many times, leaving huge amounts of sharp, brutal volcanic rock near the shores - so one cannot just paddle or swim to shore just any where. And it talks about the chop.
 
Nancy Ng poses for a photo in front of a mural in Guatemala.

“I don’t know how much my family can accept that statement if it’s not backed up or confirmed by authorities,” Nicky said. “Whatever she’s sharing with her attorney, I don’t believe it’s something that’s under oath. And it’s maybe even his interpretation of what she told him.

She added: “At the end of the day, what we want is more information so that we can direct our search team.”

She went off on a kayaking excursion in Lake Atitlan. Gardner told KABC that Blazek, who also attended the retreat, “happened upon” Nancy kayaking on the lake and attempted to warn her that the conditions weren’t safe for swimming. In Blazek’s account, Gardner said, Nancy ignored the warnings, got in the water and pushed her kayak away from herself in the process. Blazek then said she attempted to help retrieve Nancy’s kayak and it was in those moments that Nancy disappeared.

“[Blazek] kept one leg in her kayak and one leg in [Nancy’s] kayak and tried to get back to her ... and got close to her,” Gardner told KABC. “And then apparently, [Blazek] lost the kayak again and she turned around to go back to get the kayak again, and when she turned back around, Ms. Ng was gone.”

“I am not ready to speak publicly yet but I have been in clear communication with Nancy’s family and the authorities in Guatemala since the very beginning,” Rimada said. “The FBI conducted interviews to help bring closure to the Ng family that I was also completely forthcoming with.”

“Nancy’s a good swimmer. I don’t understand how this could have happened. Was she struggling for a long time? Did Christina hear her scream or yell for help?” Nicky said. “What was the scope? The circumstances? Did she just disappear? Was there a land nearby that she could have swam? I had no context or not enough context of what was going on. So those are the same questions we still have today.”
 
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