Gun Control Debate #1

[Spellbound]

BBM

This is why we shouldn't use High School students ideas as being well thought out arguments for more gun control.

I don’t understand what you seem to be implying. They are the ones who were hurt the most by this. They need to express their feelings, whether “well thought out” or not ... and we need to be listening. So far, they have been some of the most rational thinkers in all of this aftermath. They deserve to be heard, and to see changes being made.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Here's a justice.gov link to a quick reference to federal firearms laws. Notice: The link is a downloadable pdf document, produced by the federal government.

Figured I'd start with federal law. Just for info.

https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/usao-ut/legacy/2013/06/03/guncard.pdf

QUICK REFERENCE TO FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS

I. POSSESSION OF A FIREARM OR AMMUNITION BY A PROHIBITED PERSON:
"Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment. May receive minimum sentence of 15 years without parole if offender has three or more prior convictions for a felony crime of violence (e.g. burglary, robbery, assault, possession of offensive weapons) and/or drug trafficking felony."

(snip)

II. KNOWINGLY SELL, GIVE OR OTHERWISE DISPOSE OF ANY FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO ANY PERSON WHO FALLS WITHIN ONE OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES:
18 USC § 922(d). Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment.

(snip)

III. USE, CARRY OR POSSESS A FIREARM IN RELATION TO OR IN FURTHERANCE OF A DRUG FELONY OR A FEDERAL CRIME OF VIOLENCE:
18 USC § 924(c). Punishment ranges from at least 5 years up to life imprisonment, without parole, or death if death results from use of firearm. Sentence must be served consecutive to any other sentence. Mandatory minimum sentence increases depending upon: the type of firearm involved (sawed-off gun, silencer, etc.);
whether more than one offense was committed; and whether gun was simply possessed or was brandished or discharged.

(snip)

IV. STOLEN FIREARM, AMMUNITION OR EXPLOSIVE:IV. STOLEN FIREARM, AMMUNITION OR EXPLOSIVE:
Punishable by up to 10 years imprisonment.

(snip)

V. FIREARM IN A SCHOOL ZONE:
Punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment

(snip)

VI. KNOWINGLY POSSESS OR MANUFACTURE:
Punishable by up to 5 or 10 yearsimprisonment, depending upon specific violation.

(snip)

VII. SELL, DELIVER OR TRANSFER TO A JUVENILE:
Punishable by up to 1 year imprisonment unless transferor had reason to believe juvenile would commit crime of violence with gun or ammunition,then up to 10 years imprisonment.

(snip)

FORFEITURE OF FIREARMS, AMMUNITION & EXPLOSIVES:
18 U.S.C. §924(d) authorizes the seizure and forfeiture of firearms, ammunition and explosivesinvolved in criminal offenses. However, strict time limitations are imposed. Consult the ATF orU.S. Attorney’s Office as soon as possible for guidance on forfeiture issues. ​

 

[Spellbound]

Thanks for the link . How do you propose to remove all of the guns in the United States?

Did I say that?

I just linked to an article that describes a posible reason America has such a higher rate of mass murders than other countries, and the comparisons to what other countries have done. The entire article is worth reading, whether we do anything similar or not.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

We gotta start somewhere, right? At least we both agree on that point. See? Let's demand it. It'll save lives.

I do agree with one point in this post.

Consistently enforcing the laws we have.

 

[RANCH]

I totally understand what you say Ranch but sometimes with some politicians it's the emotional pleas that would get them to pay attention first before they start focusing on the evidence and facts, get their advisers to carry out research, urgent meetings etc which prompt them to change laws.

We need to start somewhere, the main thing is that: to start.

That may work where you live but in the United States politicians (no matter what party) don't give a crap about emotional pleas. They care about votes. These kids don't represent many votes.

 

[RANCH]

Did I say that?

I just linked to an article that describes a posible reason America has such a higher rate of mass murders than other countries, and the comparisons to what other countries have done. The entire article is worth reading, whether we do anything similar or not.

I didn't post that you said anything. I thanked you for the link and asked a question. You were not required to respond.

I told Tricia that I had doubts about creating this thread. I can sense the hostility towards me building already.

 

[Karinna]

From the Students
(quote)
'Shame on you': Florida students call out President Trump to act on gun laws after massacre
Brave Florida high school students have demanded action on gun laws while shaming politicians for taking gun lobby money just days after a gunman killed 17 fellow students and teachers.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/3...hooting-students-spurred-to-act-against-guns/

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

This is America, for crying out loud. Nobody's proposing we remove all the guns in the United States. It can't and won't happen.

LOL

That's like saying that just because we can't carry shampoo containers larger than 3.4oz onto a plane that somehow that extrapolates into meaning nobody anywhere can own or use or carry any shampoo bottle larger than 3.4oz. Illogical, imo.

Thanks for the link . How do you propose to remove all of the guns in the United States?

 

[Karinna]

This is America, for crying out loud. Nobody's proposing we remove all the guns in the United States. It can't and won't happen.

LOL

That's like saying that just because we can't carry shampoo containers larger than 3.4oz onto a plane that somehow that extrapolates into meaning nobody anywhere can own or use or carry any shampoo bottle larger than 3.4oz. Illogical, imo.

I agree, and i would think out of such a very large American population most Americans are still responsible gun owners.
If someone gets crazy and there is no intervention in treating their illness that person will find a way to act out their impulses.
It's not just guns, they are also driving vehicles into crowds of people as well as we have seen previously on the news, and that is happening globally.

 

[RANCH]

This is America, for crying out loud. Nobody's proposing we remove all the guns in the United States. It can't and won't happen.

LOL

That's like saying that just because we can't carry shampoo containers larger than 3.4oz onto a plane that somehow that extrapolates into meaning nobody anywhere can own or use or carry any shampoo bottle larger than 3.4oz. Illogical, imo.

If we don't remove the guns then they will be available for criminals to steal and use in killing innocent people.

I thought that's the whole idea of why countries that have far fewer guns than the US don't have the same number of gun crimes. It simple math and nothing more.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Shocking. No wonder the AR-15 style rifle is the most popular gun in America.

(rbbm)

In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/ar15-mass-shootings-guns.html

But other features that make the AR-15 so deadly on the battlefield remain. It is light, easy to hold and easy to fire, with a limited recoil. Bullets fly out of the muzzle more than twice as fast as most handgun rounds.

Equally important for a gunman looking to do a lot of damage in a hurry: AR-15-style weapons are fed with box magazines that can be swapped out quickly. The standard magazine holds 30 rounds. Equipped in this way, a gunman can fire more than a hundred rounds in minutes.

The man accused of the killings in Parkland had “countless magazines” for his AR-15, the local sheriff said.

And there is still one more reason the weapons are so popular in states like Florida: They are very easy to buy — and for a 19-year-old like Nikolas Cruz, the shooting suspect, far easier to obtain than a handgun.

Florida has a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases. But anyone without a felony record, domestic abuse conviction, or a handful of other exceptions — such as a commitment to a mental institution — can walk into a gun store, wait a few minutes to clear a background check, and walk out with an AR-15 -style rifle, magazines and ammunition.

Under federal law, you also must be 21 to buy a handgun from a firearms dealer. But 18-year-olds can buy semiautomatic rifles.​

 

[RANCH]

I agree, and i would think out of such a very large American population most Americans are still responsible gun owners.
If someone gets crazy and there is no intervention in treating their illness that person will find a way to act out their impulses.
It's not just guns, they are also driving vehicles into crowds of people as well as we have seen previously on the news, and that is happening globally.

It doesn't matter if you are a responsible gun owner. The fact that you own a gun creates an opportunity for a criminal to steal it and use it to kill someone.

 

[Karinna]

If we don't remove the guns then they will be available for criminals to steal and use in killing innocent people.

I thought that's the whole idea of why countries that have far fewer guns than the US don't have the same number of gun crimes. It simple math and nothing more.

Even in places like Australia with very strict weapons laws you can still have weapons, and there are also shooting deaths from time to time, and people if they really want a gun know how to get one. But then Australia is also a very small population/country compared to the U.S. as well.

 

[kimlynn]

Thanks for the link . How do you propose to remove all of the guns in the United States?

The link from Spellbound said that Britain and Australia instituted stricter gun laws. So it must be something that can be done.

 

[RANCH]

Shocking. No wonder the AR-15 style rifle is the most popular gun in America.

(rbbm)

In Florida, an AR-15 Is Easier to Buy Than a Handgun

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/15/us/ar15-mass-shootings-guns.html

But other features that make the AR-15 so deadly on the battlefield remain. It is light, easy to hold and easy to fire, with a limited recoil. Bullets fly out of the muzzle more than twice as fast as most handgun rounds.

Equally important for a gunman looking to do a lot of damage in a hurry: AR-15-style weapons are fed with box magazines that can be swapped out quickly. The standard magazine holds 30 rounds. Equipped in this way, a gunman can fire more than a hundred rounds in minutes.

The man accused of the killings in Parkland had “countless magazines” for his AR-15, the local sheriff said.

And there is still one more reason the weapons are so popular in states like Florida: They are very easy to buy — and for a 19-year-old like Nikolas Cruz, the shooting suspect, far easier to obtain than a handgun.

Florida has a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases. But anyone without a felony record, domestic abuse conviction, or a handful of other exceptions — such as a commitment to a mental institution — can walk into a gun store, wait a few minutes to clear a background check, and walk out with an AR-15 -style rifle, magazines and ammunition.

Under federal law, you also must be 21 to buy a handgun from a firearms dealer. But 18-year-olds can buy semiautomatic rifles.
​

Are you in favor of an "assault weapon" ban and if so what is you definition of an "assault weapon"?

 

[RANCH]

The link from Spellbound said that Britain and Australia instituted stricter gun laws. So it must be something that can be done.

Does Britain or Australia have the equivalent of the Second Amendment?

 

[kimlynn]

That may work where you live but in the United States politicians (no matter what party) don't give a crap about emotional pleas. They care about votes. These kids don't represent many votes.

Soon these kids will be voting.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

What? I think you're being sarcastic?

There are common-sense regulations we can apply to make legal gun owners more accountable and to keep better track of stolen firearms, like mandatory reporting. I mentioned it upthread. Like you mentioned previously, and we agreed on, enforcing the laws we do have in that regard is a good place to start.

If we don't remove the guns then they will be available for criminals to steal and use in killing innocent people.

I thought that's the whole idea of why countries that have far fewer guns than the US don't have the same number of gun crimes. It simple math and nothing more.

 

[RANCH]

Soon these kids will be voting.

I kind of doubt that.

 

[Karinna]

Isn't the problem in this case someone who again was mentally ill shooting at a school, and not a criminal that stole a gun from somewhere else?