Gun Control Debate #1

[EuTuCroquet?]

The need for self defense will never go away. There are no laws that will protect you and evil will never be taken out of the equation.

I agree. The right to protect life and liberty will never go away. As we know, sometimes that includes enacting safety measures to protect it.

The Pulse, Las Vegas and recent school shootings are a prime example in which we examine our rights and what we can do to protect life and liberty. Common-sense safety regulations. Keeping guns out of the hands of baddies. ... Protecting ourselves.

We all agree on that. I hope!

 

[Inthedetails]

Do I have these three "sides" of the debate correct?

1. No regulations whatsoever. No legislation regarding gun or changes in purchasing procedures. Fight any changes.

2. No guns whatsoever should be allowed except by LE. Outlaw them completely.

3. Change purchasing procedures to tighten control over who can legally purchase a gun and restrict certain types of weapons/ammo that can be sold.

Is there another contingency/viewpoint I've missed?

Trying to see the big picture, with all groups and ideas laid out.

jmo

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Yes, this is correct when discussing handguns.

Up to half a million legally owned guns are stolen each year. This fuels the black market.

To curb this, enforce registration and sales laws. Make them uniform, even for person-to-person sales. Require that legal gun owners report their stolen guns. Enforce training laws; make them uniform. Require that firearms be insured.

As we all know, the right to own firearms comes with a lot of responsibility. We can save lives and better protect ourselves by doing more to stem the tide of black-market sales and street crime.

Of the guns used, the “overwhelming majority of them are going to be illegally possessed,” said T.J. Smith, a police spokesman.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...7-homicide-data-breakdown-20180103-story.html

The average homicide victim in Baltimore in 2017 had 11 previous arrests on his record. About 73 percent had drug arrests, and nearly 50 percent had been arrested for a violent crime. About 30 percent were on parole or probation at the time they were killed, and more than 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime.

Twenty percent of the victims were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

The average homicide suspect, meanwhile, had 9 previous arrests on his record. About 70 percent had drug arrests, and nearly half had been arrested for a violent crime. Nearly 36 percent were on parole or probation, and 6 percent were on parole or probation for a gun crime, the data show.

Eighteen percent of the suspects were known members of a gang or drug crew, according to the data.

Police did not know the motive behind nearly half of the killings, but at least 20 were related to retaliation, according to the data.


Snip

Thirteen were children.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

How Many School Shootings Have Taken Place So Far in 2018?

The difficulty of agreeing on a common definition of "school shooting" shows just how many different types of firearm incidents occur on school grounds.

https://www.snopes.com/2018/02/16/how-many-school-shootings-in-2018/

From the article (lots more at link):

Breaking Out the Numbers

Using Everytown’s numbers as a starting point, we’ve broken out all the known incidents involving the discharge of firearms in U.S. schools between 1 January and 14 February 2018 into more detailed categories:

Firearm attacks during school hours: 7 (incidents resulting in injuries or deaths: 5)

22 January: Italy High School, Italy, Texas – A 16-year-old student opened fire with a semi-automatic handgun in the school cafeteria, wounding another student.

22 January: NET Charter High School, Gentilly, Louisiana – An unknown person fired shots at students from a vehicle in the school parking lot. One person was injured (though not by gunfire).

23 January: Marshall County High School, Benton, Kentucky – A 15-year-old student opened fire with a handgun on school grounds, killing two and injuring 17.

25 January: Murphy High School, Mobile, Alabama – A student fired a handgun into the air during a fight with another student. No injuries were reported.

26 January: Dearborn High School, Dearborn, Michigan – Shots were fired during a fight in the school parking lot. No injuries were reported.

31 January: Lincoln High School, Philadelphia – A fight during a basketball game resulted in the shooting death of a 32-year-old man outside the school.

14 February: Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Parkland, Florida – A 19-year-old former student opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle, killing 17 and injuring 14.

Firearm attacks NOT occurring during school hours: 2 (incidents resulting in injuries or deaths: 2)

20 January: Wake Forest University, Winston-Salem, North Carolina – A 21-year-old was shot and killed during a fight at a party on school grounds.

5 February: – Oxon Hill High School, Oxon Hill, Maryland – A student was shot and injured in the school parking lot during an attempted robbery.

Shots fired during school hours, unknown reason: 2 (no injuries)

10 January: California State University, San Bernardino, California – Bullets were fired through a window, with no suspects or motive identified.

8 February: Metropolitan High School, New York, NY – A student fired a gun into the floor of a classroom.

Unintentional gunfire during school hours: 3 (incidents resulting in injuries or deaths: 1)

10 January: Greyson College, Denison, Texas – A student fired a weapon belonging to an adviser, believing it wasn’t loaded. No injuries were reported.

1 February: Salvador B. Castro Middle School, Los Angeles – A semi-automatic rifle brought to school by a 12-year-old student accidentally went off. Four students were injured.

5 February: Harmony Learning Center, Maplewood, Minnesota – A third-grader pressed the trigger of a law enforcement officer’s handgun. The weapon went off but no one was injured.

Suicide attempts during school hours: 1 (resulting in death)

10 January: Coronado Elementary School, Sierra Vista, Arizona – A middle school student shot himself in the bathroom of the school and was pronounced dead at the scene.

Stray bullets hitting school buildings during school hours: 1 (no injuries)

4 January: New Start High School, near Seattle – Bullets fired by an unidentified shooter entered an administrative office. No injuries were reported.

Stray bullets hitting school buildings NOT occurring during school hours: 1 (no injuries)

15 January: Wiley College, Marshall, Texas – Gunshots fired from a vehicle in the parking lot of a college dorm entered through a window, but did not injure residents.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

How likely is gun violence to kill the average American? The odds may surprise you

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mass-shooting-gun-statistics-2018-2

From the article:

Assaults by firearm kill about 13,000 people in the US each year, which translates to a roughly 1-in-315 lifetime chance of death from gun violence.

That's about 56% more likely than the lifetime risk of dying while riding inside a car, truck, or van. It's also more than 11 times as high as dying from any force of nature, such as a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, or lightning strike.

These measures also suggest Americans are more likely to die from gun violence than the combined risks of drowning, fire and smoke, stabbing, choking on food, airplane crashes, animal attacks, and natural disasters.

 

[kittythehare]

Do I have these three "sides" of the debate correct?

1. No regulations whatsoever. No legislation regarding gun or changes in purchasing procedures. Fight any changes.

2. No guns whatsoever should be allowed except by LE. Outlaw them completely.

3. Change purchasing procedures to tighten control over who can legally purchase a gun and restrict certain types of weapons/ammo that can be sold.

Is there another contingency/viewpoint I've missed?

Trying to see the big picture, with all groups and ideas laid out.

jmo

Thanks for doing that.
Should we now perhaps consider discussing guns and our real or perceived need for them?
Try and bring it down to the irreducible minimum.. build up from a base?

I'm on 2, but I'm not taking into account gun culture or gun attachment because I am ignorant of the entire culture..
How valid is the culture and what is the framework, or a framework we can work within?

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

“Gun Violence Archive (GVA) is a not for profit corporation formed in 2013 to provide free online public access to accurate information about gun-related violence in the United States. GVA will collect and check for accuracy, comprehensive information about gun-related violence in the U.S. and then post and disseminate it online.”

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Guns Kill More Children Than Cancer: Is There A Cure In Sight?

http://fortune.com/2018/02/15/guns-kill-more-kids-than-cancer-drugs/

“In the year 2015, there were 35,905 deaths of Americans between the ages of five and 24 from all causes put together. One in five of these young deaths—that’s 7,074 burials in all—were due to firearms. One in five.”

 

[kittythehare]

It made me want to buy more guns.

Go right ahead.
I ain't stopping you.
As long as you know why?

I'm not seeing the war here.. I'm really and honestly not seeing the us vs them bit..
Is it about guns or personalities?
Do you perceive me to be an enemy because I don't want guns in society and you do?
I don't perceive you to be an enemy and I'm not about point scoring..

I shared the nyk piece because it echoed many of the themes we had already discussed today.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

What we know about mass shootings

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/feb/14/what-we-know-about-mass-shootings/

“With each tragedy, we hear arguments about gun violence, mental health, how firearms should be regulated and what’s driving the prevalence of mass shootings. PolitiFact has worked for years to research these topics to explain talking points used by all sides of the debate.

“Here are some answers to questions you may have.”

(Snip)

A stricter definition was in a 2015 report from the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service that defined "mass public shooting" as a multiple-homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered with firearms in at least one or more public locations, including schools.

Under this definition, there were 66 mass public shootings from 1999 to 2013, with seven incidents, or 10.6 percent, happening in schools or universities.

In recent years, mass shootings have been resulting in more casualties. The Congressional Research Service found that from 2007 to 2013, there were seven mass public shootings in which 10 or more people were killed, and two of those incidents happened in schools. Those were the 2007 Virginia Tech shooting and the 2012 shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut.

Throughout a 34-year span, from 1966 to 2006, there were six mass public shootings that resulted in the deaths of 10 or more people. Two happened in educational institutions: the 1966 tower shooting at the University of Texas, Austin, and the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.

 

[CADwrest]

How likely is gun violence to kill the average American? The odds may surprise you

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/mass-shooting-gun-statistics-2018-2

From the article:

Assaults by firearm kill about 13,000 people in the US each year, which translates to a roughly 1-in-315 lifetime chance of death from gun violence.

That's about 56% more likely than the lifetime risk of dying while riding inside a car, truck, or van. It's also more than 11 times as high as dying from any force of nature, such as a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, or lightning strike.

These measures also suggest Americans are more likely to die from gun violence than the combined risks of drowning, fire and smoke, stabbing, choking on food, airplane crashes, animal attacks, and natural disasters.

Well, I guess the headline is technically accurate, although I will point out that it's the 18th "leading" cause of death.

Importantly, though: Where you live in the US makes a very big difference in those odds. If you live in a high crime, urban area, it's a lot higher then 1 in 315. If not, then it's much lower.

 

[Inthedetails]

Okay, how's this for common ground:

We all agree we don't want innocent people injured or hurt by guns.

Can we agree on that as a first step?

Any opposition to that statement?

 

[Gardenista]

Do I have these three "sides" of the debate correct?

1. No regulations whatsoever. No legislation regarding gun or changes in purchasing procedures. Fight any changes.

2. No guns whatsoever should be allowed except by LE. Outlaw them completely.

3. Change purchasing procedures to tighten control over who can legally purchase a gun and restrict certain types of weapons/ammo that can be sold.

Is there another contingency/viewpoint I've missed?

Trying to see the big picture, with all groups and ideas laid out.

jmo

Yes, you missed that our LE agencies need to do their jobs and if they don't they are held responsible.

 

[Inthedetails]

Yes, you missed that our LE agencies need to do their jobs and if they don't they are held responsible.

Okay, I hear ya.

Doesn't that sort of overlap all the groups though? I think we all would agree that LE needs to do their jobs. Can we make the assumption that everyone agrees LE should fulfill their duties?

 

[rosemadderlake]

State assault weapon bans

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapons_legislation_in_the_United_States
While the Sandy Hook tragedy happened in one of the safest states, no state is immune..


A look at gun related deaths and laws by state.



Eta: ^^ oops ^^ looking for link to my blurry but informative graphic.

Meanwhile, here's a link to state by state scorecard on gun laws and deaths.
http://lawcenter.giffords.org/scorecard2015/

 

[FinallyRegistered]

Pretty sure if he would have been charged/convicted of his crimes, he wouldn't have been able to purchase.

Prior to his shooting spree on Valentine's Day, what felony crime did he commit?

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/florida/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Florida

 

[kittythehare]

Well, I guess the headline is technically accurate, although I will point out that it's the 18th "leading" cause of death.

Importantly, though: Where you live in the US makes a very big difference in those odds. If you live in a high crime, urban area, it's a lot higher then 1 in 315. If not, then it's much lower.

Good point and thanks for the earlier points you made too.. I had not realised .

 

[Footwarrior]

Thanks for doing that.
Should we now perhaps consider discussing guns and our real or perceived need for them?
Try and bring it down to the irreducible minimum.. build up from a base?

I'm on 2, but I'm not taking into account gun culture or gun attachment because I am ignorant of the entire culture..
How valid is the culture and what is the framework, or a framework we can work within?

What's interesting is that few of the other nations that "banned guns" really banned all guns. Australia created a licensing system that requires a reason for owning a specific type of gun. It's fairly easy to get a license for a simple .22 rifle for target shooting. The same is true for a license for a shotgun used for duck hunting. Licenses for a semi automatic rifles and handguns are highly restricted. Each class of firearms has terms that state exactly how that firearm can be used and how it must be stored.

The same basic framework would make sense for the United States. A license is required before buying any firearm. Getting that license should require passing a training class focused on safety and the regulations for that class of firearm. My state requires 12 hours of instruction, passing a written test and demonstrating the ability to safely handle and fire a gun at a range before issue a license to hunt with a firearm. Before that rule was implemented, a half dozen or more deaths were occurring every hunting season. Now the rate is under one death a year. It doesn't make sense to require a safety class for hunting but assume that anyone buying a gun knows how to handle it safely.

 

[kittythehare]

What's interesting is that few of the other nations that "banned guns" really banned all guns. Australia created a licensing system that requires a reason for owning a specific type of gun. It's fairly easy to get a license for a simple .22 rifle for target shooting. The same is true for a license for a shotgun used for duck hunting. Licenses for a semi automatic rifles and handguns are highly restricted. Each class of firearms has terms that state exactly how that firearm can be used and how it must be stored.

The same basic framework would make sense for the United States. A license is required before buying any firearm. Getting that license should require passing a training class focused on safety and the regulations for that class of firearm. My state requires 12 hours of instruction, passing a written test and demonstrating the ability to safely handle and fire a gun at a range before issue a license to hunt with a firearm. Before that rule was implemented, a half dozen or more deaths were occurring every hunting season. Now the rate is under one death a year. It doesn't make sense to require a safety class for hunting but assume that anyone buying a gun knows how to handle it safely.

That makes a lot of very good sense..
Thank you.

 

[Canaille]

Just in case anyone is interested. I've not seen such a detailed list before. But, then again, i never really looked for one, either.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf