Gun Control Debate #1

[Bravo]

Also wanted to add that other venues need to be protected, not just the schools. Night clubs, concerts, malls etc. etc.

 

[Bravo]

Just another tid bit before we go out for dinner. U.S. Courtrooms do not allow dental floss inside. In case one wanted to strangle somebody. SMH ironic.

 

[Doghairrules]

A whole other can of worms......

Not to mention, the teachers I know do not want to be armed.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

I have been in a few debates with gun loving Americans and this is where I always concede. America is past the point of no return as far as adopting policies that other much less gun violent nations have. There are 300 million+ guns in America. Far too many for any kind of buyback program or heaven forbid, confiscation.

As a Canadian, my skin in the game is those guns crossing the border. Traditionally, it is not easy to get a handgun in Canada, even for criminals. However the spillage from the USofA is changing that. And we do not want your damn guns!

Maybe we should build a wall on our southern border. A great big beautiful wall.

I don’t blame you, CoolJ. It’s out of control.

 

[gitana1]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...r-stop-mass-shootings/?utm_term=.bf95b99ab1eb

https://www.quora.com/Has-any-mass-murderer-ever-been-stopped-by-an-armed-bystander

You're right. I was wrong in that statement.

I have now researched starting from the links you provided. In the instances cited, there were significant factors that allowed a person with a gun to stop a shooter. They include:

1. The majority of the murderers in those stories did NOT have semi-automatics. 7 out of 10 did not have semi-automatics. Not one had a semi-automatic rifle/long gun/military weapon.
2. The majority of the armed citizens had a lot of reaction time.
3. Two of the "civilians" were former military and one was a police officer hired as security- not a civilian at all.
4. Several of the cases did not involve typical mass-shooting situations. One guy was drunk and belligerent for a long time before he pulled his gun after being kicked out of a bar. One case was a home invasion, armed robbery/rape. One was a guy who went to a church armed, making threats, but not pulling the trigger, as he was upset about something involving his kids. Another bar shooting was a family feud. The barber shop shooting occurred during an argument.
5. In two of the cases the heroes that intervened with their own guns did not actually stop the mass murder but did apprehend the murderer after the shooting.

The bottom line is that when balancing the risk of arming a bunch of untrained civilians with guns at school in an effort to stop massacres like Parkland, the risk far outweighs any potential benefit.

Having armed, trained officers at schools, and perhaps a few highly trained security officers who have firearms accessible, so they can be on the ground and react quickly when a shooting begins? I don;t object to that. But we are talking about - instead of banning automatics and semi-automatics and bump stocks or high-capacity magazines, instead of closing gun show loopholes, and internet firearm and ammunition purchases, instead of increasing waiting periods and mandating more intensive background check processes, instead of blocking the sale of firearms to people with certain mental illnesses (the Obama era regulation which was repealed by Trump before it went into effect would've made it easier to block sales to people adjudicated by a court as mental defectives and committed to mental institutions), instead of banning armor piercing bullets, instead of all that, we are supposed to flood our schools with even more guns, in the hands of untrained, un-vetted people? It doesn't seem like a reasonable or viable alternative to actual gun control.

Here is the breakdown:



1. - Warren Edwards did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun. He was arguing with another customer at a barber shot. During the argument he pulled his handgun and started shooting. The hero who stopped him had a lot of reaction time. He was outside, heard shooting and ran inside to engage in a gun-fight with the killer.


https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html


2. - Everado Custodio did not have a semi-automatic. He had a pistol. The guy who stopped him? Army Vet.


https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/u...edly-fired-at-group-on-logan-square-sidewalk/


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-concealed-carry-shooting-interview-met-20151120-story.html




3. - Jesse Gates did not have a semi-automatic and did not try to fire or come in shooting like other mass murderers. He just pointed his gun while making threats. The young man who contained him was well-prepared, had a huge amount of reaction time and expected trouble:


About 11:20 a.m., Jesse Gates returned to the church. The Rev. Guyton’s grandson, Aaron Guyton, 26, was in the recreation building separate from the church and saw Gates get a shotgun from the trunk of his car.


“At that point, I knew I had to do something,” Aaron Guyton said. “I wanted to try to contain him outside.”


Aaron Guyton went into the main building and locked the doors.


The Rev. Guyton’s wife, Joyce, 70, said she remained calm through the incident, even as Gates pointed the shotgun at her husband in the pulpit.


“He said, ‘Come out of the pulpit,’ ” Joyce Guyton said. “He said it three times. He scared some of the members to death. Some of them crawled under the benches and chairs. I don’t know if he was drugged or what was wrong with him, but he was bad.”


Aaron Guyton said he’s had a concealed weapons permit since 2009, and usually keeps his gun in the car during church. But after Gates showed up at the church the first time, Aaron Guyton said he decided to keep the gun in his back pocket the rest of the morning.


http://www.goupstate.com/news/20120325/sheriff-man-kicks-in-church-side-door-points-shotgun


4. - Richard Plotts did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun. He killed one person before he was stopped by his second target who was able to access his weapon while hiding
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/2...shooting-had-lengthy-history-gun-arrests.html


5. - Allabaugh did have a semi-automatic handgun. He was drunk. Mark Kytr who stopped him with his own handgun had a ton of reaction time. The shooter had been asked to leave after coming into the bar visibly armed, and sitting there making homophobic and racist remarks. He began arguing and eventually - not immediately, shot a guy sitting on barstool, to death. He then went outside, and shot someone trying to get away. After that Kytor, who had fled the bar and was hiding at that point behind a tree, engaged the shooter with his own gun.


http://citizensvoice.com/news/man-pleads-guilty-to-plymouth-shootings-1.1569258


6. - Calvin Lavant and Jamal Hill were not armed with semi-automatics. They had regular handguns. This was a home-invasion robbery/rape. The guy who stopped them had a lot of reaction time because this was not a mass shooting situation, They were taunting the victims and discussing what they were going to do. The guy who stopped them was a former Marine.


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-supreme-court/1713206.html


http://www.ajc.com/news/local/wrink...gt-pulled-the-trigger/3tCEeDeIdfH7sexOnKsv5M/




7. - Ernesto Villa Gomez did have a semi-automatic handgun. He was involved in a family feud and went to a bar where he killed a couple brothers who were of the family he was feuding with, before he was shot by another patron who had a concealed carry permit. There is no information to suggest the shooter intended to kill random, mass amounts of people.


http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html
http://www.ktvn.com/story/8378732/three-men-killed-in-winnemucca-shooting-on-Sunday


8. - Matthew Murray did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun and a shotgun, however. He killed people at two different locations, before he was stopped by Jeanne Assam who was a police officer at the time of the shooting. He killed himself after Jeanne wounded him. Jeanne had HOURS of reaction time as the shooter had earlier killed at a different site and security at the church Jeanne was at had been beefed up as a result.


Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service.


[New Life’s Senior Pastor Brady] Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.


Boyd said there are 15 to 20 security people at the church. All are volunteers but the only ones armed are those who are licensed to carry weapons.


Jeanne Assam herself to us that:


This message is regarding a post about me. It has a picture of me and words to the effect that I was just some random woman at New Life church when a gunman entered. The fact is that I am and was a police officer at the time of the shooting. I was part of the volunteer security team that day at the church.
https://www.snopes.com/jeanne-assam/


9. - Luke Woodham did not have a semi-automatic weapon. He murdered two students and wounded 7 more before fleeing. The assistant principal had a lot of reaction time as he was not in direct line of th shooting and instead, after hearing it, went outside to his truck, got his .45 and ran after Woodham who was at that point out of the school and fleeing in his vehicle. He did apprehend the shooter by stopping him from fleeing after Woodham lost control of his vehicle, and Mr. Myrick held a gun to his head, but he did not stop the mass murder, which had already finished.


https://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/pearlhigh.asp


http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/1...-grudge-against-christian-group-cops-say.html


http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136736,00.html


10. - Andrew Wurst did have a semi-automatic handgun. The hero who apprehended him had a lot of reaction time. He was next door when he heard the shooting. Wurst had already stopped shooting and was fleeing the scene by the time Mr. Strand apprehended him. over.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting
https://www.nap.edu/read/10370/chapter/6#73


Finally as to "soft targets", there have been a few two killings at gun ranges, a couple involving multiple victims:

Veronica Lewis walked into a Vermont Target Sports last week and asked to shoot a gun, she wasn’t required to pass a background check. If she had been, the check would have turned up the native New Yorker’s lengthy criminal rap sheet and a state order that explicitly prohibits her from possessing firearms. But she wasn’t, and after finishing a gun safety course, Lewis opened fire on instructor Darryl Montague, critically wounding him, before making off with the .22-caliber handgun.

In 2009, 44-year-old Marie Moore shot and killed her 20-year-old son and then herself at Shoot Straight in Casselberry, Florida. Moore had been involuntarily institutionalized in 2002 and wouldn’t have passed a background check.

In 2011, Bambi Hilburn, 38, was murdered by a man she met on a dating website at Bullet Hole shooting range in Overland Park, Kansas. He then killed himself.
In perhaps the most publicized case of murder at a gun range, Chris Kyle, the lauded Navy SEAL sniper, was shot and killed along with his companion, Chad Littlefield, by a mentally unstable veteran suffering from PTSD. No background check was required at that rural Texas range.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/background-check-vermont-gun-range/

But regardless, the fact that we are discussing the possibility of turning our schools into military, combat camps as an alternative to - not banning gun ownership - but instead, sensible gun control laws, is insanely illogical to me. But it is why I have not felt any real changes would be possible in our country.

Maybe this generation will find a way. I don't know.

 

[gitana1]

I didn't really have a question. Just stunned that the NRA would go so far as to send people and money to try to stop stricter gun laws in Australia.
I don't know why I'm surprised but it stood out to me.

Oh! I didn't know that happened.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

How the Nazis Used Gun Control

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/12/how-nazis-used-gun-control-stephen-p-halbrook/

Thank goodness our government and leaders aren’t suggesting anything remotely like this!

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Very insightful. Thank you, gitana1 [emoji106]

You're right. I was wrong in that statement.

I have now researched starting from the links you provided. In the instances cited, there were significant factors that allowed a person with a gun to stop a shooter. They include:

1. The majority of the murderers in those stories did NOT have semi-automatics. 7 out of 10 did not have semi-automatics. Not one had a semi-automatic rifle/long gun/military weapon.
2. The majority of the armed citizens had a lot of reaction time.
3. Two of the "civilians" were former military and one was a police officer hired as security- not a civilian at all.
4. Several of the cases did not involve typical mass-shooting situations. One guy was drunk and belligerent for a long time before he pulled his gun after being kicked out of a bar. One case was a home invasion, armed robbery/rape. One was a guy who went to a church armed, making threats, but not pulling the trigger, as he was upset about something involving his kids. Another bar shooting was a family feud. The barber shop shooting occurred during an argument.
5. In two of the cases that heroes that intervened with their own guns did not stop the mass murder but did apprehend the murderer after the shooting.

The bottom line is that when balancing the risk of arming a bunch of untrained civilians with guns at school in an effort to stop massacres like Parkland, the risk far outweighs any potential benefit.

Having armed, trained officers at schools, and perhaps a few highly trained security officers who have firearms accessible, so they can be on the ground and react quickly when a shooting begins? I don;t object to that. But we are talking about - instead of banning automatics and semi-automatics and bump stocks or high-capacity magazines, instead of closing gun show loopholes, and internet firearm and ammunition purchases, instead of increasing waiting periods and mandating more intensive background check processes, instead of blocking the sale of firearms to people with certain mental illnesses (the Obama era regulation which was repealed by Trump before it went into effect would've made it easier to block sales to people adjudicated by a court as mental defectives and committed to mental institutions), instead of banning armor piercing bullets, instead of all that, we are supposed to flood our schools with even more guns, in the hands of untrained, un-vetted people? It doesn't seem like a reasonable or viable alternative to actual gun control.

Here is the breakdown:



1. - Warren Edwards did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun. He was arguing with another customer at a barber shot. During the argument he pulled his handgun and started shooting. The hero who stopped him had a lot of reaction time. He was outside, heard shooting and ran inside to engage in a gun-fight with the killer.


https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...-Inside-West-Philly-Barbershop-297176271.html


2. - Everado Custodio did not have a semi-automatic. He had a pistol. The guy who stopped him? Army Vet.


https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/u...edly-fired-at-group-on-logan-square-sidewalk/


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-concealed-carry-shooting-interview-met-20151120-story.html




3. - Jesse Gates did not have a semi-automatic and did not try to fire or come in shooting like other mass murderers. He just pointed his gun while making threats. The young man who contained him was well-prepared, had a huge amount of reaction time and expected trouble:


About 11:20 a.m., Jesse Gates returned to the church. The Rev. Guyton’s grandson, Aaron Guyton, 26, was in the recreation building separate from the church and saw Gates get a shotgun from the trunk of his car.


“At that point, I knew I had to do something,” Aaron Guyton said. “I wanted to try to contain him outside.”


Aaron Guyton went into the main building and locked the doors.


The Rev. Guyton’s wife, Joyce, 70, said she remained calm through the incident, even as Gates pointed the shotgun at her husband in the pulpit.


“He said, ‘Come out of the pulpit,’ ” Joyce Guyton said. “He said it three times. He scared some of the members to death. Some of them crawled under the benches and chairs. I don’t know if he was drugged or what was wrong with him, but he was bad.”


Aaron Guyton said he’s had a concealed weapons permit since 2009, and usually keeps his gun in the car during church. But after Gates showed up at the church the first time, Aaron Guyton said he decided to keep the gun in his back pocket the rest of the morning.


http://www.goupstate.com/news/20120325/sheriff-man-kicks-in-church-side-door-points-shotgun


4. - Richard Plotts did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun. He killed one person before he was stopped by his second target who was able to access his weapon while hiding
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/07/2...shooting-had-lengthy-history-gun-arrests.html


5. - Allabaugh did have a semi-automatic handgun. He was drunk. Mark Kytr who stopped him with his own handgun had a ton of reaction time. The shooter had been asked to leave after coming into the bar visibly armed, and sitting there making homophobic and racist remarks. He began arguing and eventually - not immediately, shot a guy sitting on barstool, to death. He then went outside, and shot someone trying to get away. After that Kytor, who had fled the bar and was hiding at that point behind a tree, engaged the shooter with his own gun.


http://citizensvoice.com/news/man-pleads-guilty-to-plymouth-shootings-1.1569258


6. - Calvin Lavant and Jamal Hill were not armed with semi-automatics. They had regular handguns. This was a home-invasion robbery/rape. The guy who stopped them had a lot of reaction time because this was not a mass shooting situation, They were taunting the victims and discussing what they were going to do. The guy who stopped them was a former Marine.


http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-supreme-court/1713206.html


http://www.ajc.com/news/local/wrink...gt-pulled-the-trigger/3tCEeDeIdfH7sexOnKsv5M/




7. - Ernesto Villa Gomez did have a semi-automatic handgun. He was involved in a family feud and went to a bar where he killed a couple brothers who were of the family he was feuding with, before he was shot by another patron who had a concealed carry permit. There is no information to suggest the shooter intended to kill random, mass amounts of people.


http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/19251374.html
http://www.ktvn.com/story/8378732/three-men-killed-in-winnemucca-shooting-on-Sunday


8. - Matthew Murray did not have a semi-automatic. He had a handgun and a shotgun, however. He killed people at two different locations, before he was stopped by Jeanne Assam who was a police officer at the time of the shooting. He killed himself after Jeanne wounded him. Jeanne had HOURS of reaction time as the shooter had earlier killed at a different site and security at the church Jeanne was at had been beefed up as a result.


Assam worked as a police officer in downtown Minneapolis during the 1990s and is licensed to carry a weapon. She attends one of the morning services and then volunteers as a guard during another service.


[New Life’s Senior Pastor Brady] Boyd said Assam was the one who suggested the church beef up its security Sunday following the Arvada shooting, which it did. The pastor credited the security plan and the extra security for preventing further bloodshed.


Boyd said there are 15 to 20 security people at the church. All are volunteers but the only ones armed are those who are licensed to carry weapons.


Jeanne Assam herself to us that:


This message is regarding a post about me. It has a picture of me and words to the effect that I was just some random woman at New Life church when a gunman entered. The fact is that I am and was a police officer at the time of the shooting. I was part of the volunteer security team that day at the church.
https://www.snopes.com/jeanne-assam/


9. - Luke Woodham did not have a semi-automatic weapon. He murdered two students and wounded 7 more before fleeing. The assistant principal had a lot of reaction time as he was not in direct line of th shooting and instead, after hearing it, went outside to his truck, got his .45 and ran after Woodham who was at that point out of the school and fleeing in his vehicle. He did apprehend the shooter by stopping him from fleeing after Woodham lost control of his vehicle, and Mr. Myrick held a gun to his head, but he did not stop the mass murder, which had already finished.


https://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/pearlhigh.asp


http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/1...-grudge-against-christian-group-cops-say.html


http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136736,00.html


10. - Andrew Wurst did have a semi-automatic handgun. The hero who apprehended him had a lot of reaction time. He was next door when he heard the shooting. Wurst had already stopped shooting and was fleeing the scene by the time Mr. Strand apprehended him. over.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting
https://www.nap.edu/read/10370/chapter/6#73


Finally as to "soft targets", there have been a few two killings at gun ranges, a couple involving multiple victims:

Veronica Lewis walked into a Vermont Target Sports last week and asked to shoot a gun, she wasn’t required to pass a background check. If she had been, the check would have turned up the native New Yorker’s lengthy criminal rap sheet and a state order that explicitly prohibits her from possessing firearms. But she wasn’t, and after finishing a gun safety course, Lewis opened fire on instructor Darryl Montague, critically wounding him, before making off with the .22-caliber handgun.

In 2009, 44-year-old Marie Moore shot and killed her 20-year-old son and then herself at Shoot Straight in Casselberry, Florida. Moore had been involuntarily institutionalized in 2002 and wouldn’t have passed a background check.

In 2011, Bambi Hilburn, 38, was murdered by a man she met on a dating website at Bullet Hole shooting range in Overland Park, Kansas. He then killed himself.
In perhaps the most publicized case of murder at a gun range, Chris Kyle, the lauded Navy SEAL sniper, was shot and killed along with his companion, Chad Littlefield, by a mentally unstable veteran suffering from PTSD. No background check was required at that rural Texas range.
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/background-check-vermont-gun-range/

But regardless, the fact that we are discussing the possibility of turning our schools into military, combat camps as an alternative to - not banning gun ownership - but instead, sensible gun control laws, is insanely illogical to me. But it is why I have not felt any real changes would be possible in our country.

Maybe this generation will find a way. I don't know.

 

[gitana1]

How the Nazis Used Gun Control

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/12/how-nazis-used-gun-control-stephen-p-halbrook/

Yeah. Not really:

This is a misreading of history on two levels. First, German citizens as a whole were not disarmed by the Nazis. Jews and other supposed enemies of the state were subject to having their weapons seized. But for most German citizens, the Nazi period was one in which gun regulations were loosened, not tightened.
Second, a lack of guns was not the issue. If the majority of Germans had wanted to use these guns to fight the Nazis, they could have. But they didn’t. Carson ignores that the Nazis enjoyed significant popular support, or at least, broad acquiescence.http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/26/ben-carson/fact-checking-ben-carson-nazi-guns/

[FONT=&amp]For starters, the Weapon Law of 1938 actually significantly loosened strict German gun laws that had been put into place by the Weimar Republic government in the years following World War I. These Weimar laws included an initial ban on all private firearm ownership, which was later slightly relaxed into a system of strict regulation requiring numerous permits.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]The Nazi Weapon Law [/FONT]deregulated this whole system[FONT=&amp], as well as other changes that made it much easier for others to acquire firearms:[/FONT]

“The 1938 law signed by Hitler that LaPierre mentions in his book basically does the opposite of what he says it did. ‘The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition,’ [law professor Bernard E.] Harcourt wrote. Meanwhile, many more categories of people, including Nazi party members, were exempted from gun ownership regulations altogether, while the legal age of purchase was lowered from 20 to 18, and permit lengths were extended from one year to three years.”​

[FONT=&amp]The idea that armed German Jews specifically would have been able to fight back against the Holocaust is highly unlikely. The Nazi Germany war machine was one of the most powerful military systems ever constructed, especially prior to and in the early years of World War II, and it would have been able to quash almost any armed resistance. In fact, the largest revolt by armed Jewish citizens during the war — the [/FONT]1943 Warsaw Ghetto Uprising[FONT=&amp] — was ended in less than a month and resulted in the death of 13,000 Jews versus less than 300 Germans.[/FONT]
http://standardnews.com/adolf-hitler-gun-control-myth/

When our government starts issuing gun restrictions against only one ethnic group, then we will have a problem. Regardless, none of the weapons we can legally own are a match for the government in an uprising situation. It's just silly. They have bombs and soldiers and tanks. Come on. Let's be realistic. As seen above, with less effective weapons than the government has now, Nazis were able to overcome armed Jews relatively easily and they pretty much all died.

Just another tid bit before we go out for dinner. U.S. Courtrooms do not allow dental floss inside. In case one wanted to strangle somebody. SMH ironic.

I bring floss into the courthouse all the time. It's in my bag. I haven't seen any signs banning it!!! Maybe federally?

 

[southernmimi]

The church where I am a member and have been for years, now employs armed police officers to patrol during all services. No church members are armed or expected to be, but the officers are in uniform and highly visible. At first, I thought it was an awful idea since we haven't had any incidents. Now, I see this change in a different way. Knowing these men and women are patrolling...circling while we worship...has made me feel safer and less insecure. I want everyone to have the right to bear arms. If the FBI had been more diligent and followed through with the report on the last shooter, the horror in Florida could have been prevented. Maybe we should all spend the extra money to have armed officers in full view at public schools. I would much rather that happen than teachers be armed or more innocents murdered.

 

[kaen]

Because it's working. How many hijackers have taken control of a US airliner since this program was started. Zero. Because they know they will get shot if they try.

In order for people to get on the plane, they are screened for weapons - in some cases have to throw out knitting needles. We are screened for any metal in our bags and on our person. Yes, zero because you are not allowed to have the gun on the plane. We take off our shoes b/c some tried to bomb the plane with a shoe explosive. We are screened right down to our under garments b/c of the underwear bomber. I can't take more than 3.4 ounces of shampoo b/c of plastic and liquid/gel explosives. The chances of one of these trained people meeting up with a gun toting person is very low.

Great that there are people who know how to take out a gun toting attacker--- but there are very few assault or semi-automatic rifles getting onto the planes. Lest we forget that 9/11 was not a gun incident but rather a box cutter and unlocked cockpit doors.

To have wide open schools with people having access to assault weapons is a totally different story. How many people have been killed in the past 5 years in mass shootings by people with assault rifles? I defer to the great post that Gitana shared about how attacks with semi-automatic weapons versus handguns have been successfully/unsuccessfully stopped.

 

[Inthedetails]

Very insightful. Thank you, gitana1 [emoji106]

Yes, thank you. This is the info I've been wanting.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The church where I am a member and have been for years, now employs armed police officers to patrol during all services. No church members are armed or expected to be, but the officers are in uniform and highly visible. At first, I thought it was an awful idea since we haven't had any incidents. Now, I see this change in a different way. Knowing these men and women are patrolling...circling while we worship...has made me feel safer and less insecure. I want everyone to have the right to bear arms. If the FBI had been more diligent and followed through with the report on the last shooter, the horror in Florida could have been prevented. Maybe we should all spend the extra money to have armed officers in full view at public schools. I would much rather that happen than teachers be armed or more innocents murdered.

If the shooters didn’t have access to such lethal firepower, the Florida massacre, Las Vegas massacre, the Pulse nightclub slaughter could have been prevented.

Police were present at the Florida school before the shooting.

Heck, a Glock wouldn’t have killed and injured so many people in these horrid events than AR-15 style rifles have. The latter is a war weapon invented for our military fighting in the jungles in Vietnam. (!!!)

Maybe we should spend more money to prevent these catastrophes by going to the source of the problem.

Common sense safety precautions. Regulations.

There’s no logical reason why an 18 year old or anyone else for that matter can walk into a store in Florida and walk out with a high-capacity, high-power semi-automatic rifle — no waiting period — when handgun purchases require the customer to be at least 21, plus a waiting period (I think five days).

Equalize the laws we have.

If there’s a logical reason to require waiting periods for handguns, it only makes sense to apply it universally.

Occam’s razor. It’s the obvious answer.

Occam’s razor. The answer that requires the fewest assumptions is usually the best one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Because it's working. How many hijackers have taken control of a US airliner since this program was started. Zero. Because they know they will get shot if they try.

Guns aren’t allowed on planes for public safety reasons. If they’re transported, they can’t be loaded. That’s the law.

So, no, it isn’t that air travel is safer because of guns or because baddies “know they’ll be shot if they try.” Nope! I respectfully and wholly disagree.

It’s safer because universal precautions are applied to everyone. Taking off shoes, scanning electronics, limiting the volume of liquids, turning off electronics while the aircraft is taking off, body scans, luggage testing for bomb and firearm residue, more cctv, etc., etc., etc.

Universal safety precautions save our lives.

Because we’re a nation of laws.

MOO

 

[Bravo]

Gitana-Dental floss was on the list of items when I attended the Bashara Trial. Detroit. Frank Murphy Hall of Justice. You may have some slack being a Lawyer. General public rules likely differ. Yet you may have had an instance you wanted to strangle somebody :blushing:

 

[Bravo]

IMO ban assault weapons. Strict gun laws need to be implemented. Buy back program and thorough background checks. Stop the easy purchase at gun shows. Pour money into mental health. Will it stop it completely. No but if it stops one killer from destroying many lives.......It's been too easy for too long for these guys to obtain a weapon for mass killing.

 

[yurena]

Just reading my favourite Spanish newspaper now and the text below the headline was something so surreal for me I had to go online to check if that was really true.

Americans own half of the civilian guns worldwide
-the video is in English with Spanish subtitles-

https://elpais.com/internacional/2018/02/17/estados_unidos/1518890333_093003.html

My head is still spinning after reading just that single sentence and reading this thread and articles on the media-and please believe me no offense intended here at all- I have had to take breaks from time to time and remind myself "The USA is in the same planet. What I am reading -metal detectors in schools, people with an entire arsenal in their homes- is not happening in another planet".

The problem you have with this issue is so serious, so profound I do not know how you are going to solve it but I really hope this last tragedy in Florida is the seed for change you so urgently need.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

The overwhelming majority of people with severe depression, PTSD, bipolar, even schizophrenia, etc. get better, aren't violent and just deserve access to decent mental health care.

When our government starts institutionalizing the infirm, the mentally sick, and confiscating their firearms instead of treating them — when our government starts limiting life and liberty and rights, we're screwed. IMHO. That's what confuses me about the whole mental health/gun access debate. Nobody wants their firearms confiscated en masse, but that's essentially what's being proposed.

And I think our lawmakers know it's a losing argument, because it can't and won't happen. It's a diversion.

The last thing any of us need or really want is mass institutionalization. Mass confiscation of firearms. Warehousing. We do that enough in prisons with the mentally ill anyway. It's reactive. It doesn't help our society.

We're really having two separate discussions. Access to health care and reducing gun violence.

We need BOTH, not one or the other. And by access to health care, I do NOT mass "incarceration" of people who have committed no crimes. It's not a crime to have mental health treatment or issues. I hear talking heads on news stations pushing for "lowering" the barrier for involuntary commitment. Where in the heck would we put them all? Oh, heck no. No way.

The issues shouldn't be conflated. It's dangerous if we do, imo.

MOO

 

[southernmimi]

The couple who allowed The Parkland shooter to live with them state that they had no idea a "monster" was living in their home. If two alert and educated people had no clue he had so many problems, how can anyone know who a person is or what they intend to do? I think those who are obviously mentally ill are farther down the list of those we should fear.

 

[Tillicum]

Yeah arming teachers as a solution to this is nonsensical and insane IMO.

First, where is the firearm going to be stored so the teacher can access and use it immediately. If they can access and use it immediately, that means a student likely can too. Either by opening a drawer or overpowering the teacher. And are we really at the stage where we want students to have to be in a class with an armed teacher? With a gun in a holster? What does that tell our babies about the world we live in and how to survive it?

Second, people make mistakes on a daily basis with dangerous items like cars, chemicals, tools, fire. People also make deadly and dangerous mistakes with their firearms, daily, leading to him deaths. Now we want to throw millions more guns into the schools, at the hands of millions of teachers so that there are musslions of more oppruntities for someone to make a horrendous safety mistake with the firearm they brought to school for protection.

Third, you can't just shove a gun in an adult's hand and think they're prepared. To be able to use it properly requires a lot of training. Will training be mandated? What kind? Many of the 3.2 million public school teachers in our nation have never fired a gun. But we are going to arm them all?

Fourth, even if they are gun users and know how to shoot, unless you are a soldier with a loaded weapon cocked and ready to go, or LE with a loaded weapon aimed and going into a dangerous situation ready to shoot, the weapon in the safe or even in your holster may be of little use. I remember a terrifying situation I rolled up on, not expecting it, which involved a psychotic young homeless guy screaming the most blood-curdling scream and lunging toward me as I pulled up into my office drive late one night to grab a file. In shock I could barely get my car into reverse and then once I did, and this guy SLOWLY followed me into the street where I had reversed, I was shaking so bad it took me several tries to dial 911.

Being able to react quickly with a weapon is something only highly skilled soldiers and LE are able to do typically and even then, if you're not in battle mode and the bad guy comes in unsuspecting, as they usually do, it's too late by the time you can reach for your gun.

Fifth, like in tests of crowd shooting situations where others were armed and engaged the shooter, they mostly just shot each other on accident. As someone else said, adding guns in the hands of people who aren't professional gun users, even if they think they are, increases the possibility of casualties. It doesn't decrease it. And when first responders show up during the heat of a shooting, how can they know who the bad guy is and who the good guy is if everyone is armed? That's a fast intense, adrenaline-filled situation.

As a result of the fourth and fifth points above, despite armed people being in close proximity to the shooter during the Oregon community college shooting and the Fort Hood shooting some either did not use their weapons or did but unsuccessfully. Civilians have never successfully stopped a shooter from killing many people. Only one, who had a ton of reaction time, was able to use firearms to disable a mass murderer, but only after he already killed 26 people including 26 children:

According to a study of 62 mass shootings over 30 years conducted by Mother Jones, “not a single case includes evidence that the killer chose to target a place because it banned guns.” Many of those mass shootings took place in areas were guns where permitted, but not a single one was stopped by armed civilians.
Parker’s interview revealed the practical difficulties of armed civilians trying to stop a mass shooting. By the time he became aware of the shooting, a SWAT team had already responded. He was concerned that police would view him as a “bad guy” and target him, so he quickly retreated into the classroom.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thinkp...-campus-at-time-of-massacre-1410b3cad225/amp/

Instead, it is non-civilians who have been the most effective at ending the carnage or stopping a shooter.

Finally, sixth, not every teacher across America is stable themselves. Some are actually suicidal, mentally ill, homicidal. And we want to arm them all?

This seems like a terrible plan and an ineffective means of protecting our kids. I would be scared to send my child to school with armed teachers.

Gitana first let me say that I respect you and your opinion. After reading your posts, I read back through the thread to see if I missed posts suggesting that "all" teachers could or should be armed at all schools. I couldn't find any so I'm assuming you're referring to my post about some teachers in some schools being trained and armed. If I'm mistaken I apologize.

If the situations were as you have described above then I too would have the same concerns as you. These teachers undergo background checks. They go through combat training for both taking down the threat and administering life saving medical response. Some are carrying but most of the guns are in concealed safes throughout the building. These safes can only be opened with their fingerprint. There are also armed LE in the building working and coordinating with them.

I get that it's not perfect. I understand that some students and/or their parents may not approve or fear the idea of more guns in the school, but just as many, in most cases more of the students and parents feel safer.

This has been going on for several years in many states and AFAIK none of the scenarios you suggested have happened. I hope and pray they never do.

Again I respect yours and others opinions, negative or positive but I wanted to make it clear that it's not just any Joe Schmoe with a teaching license strapping on a gun and walking into a school with our children and grandchildren.