Gun Control Debate #2

[K_Z]

The CNN Townhall was, at best, catharsis of grief, and emotionally satisfying "rave" for anti-gun activists, certainly.

At worst, IMO, it was a thoroughly shameful and disgusting exploitation of profound and raw grief, and the exploitation of carefully selected youth.

The Townhall was masterful in it's deceptive manipulation-- the message was that if you at all disagree with the anti-gun message of these eloquent grieving kids, you are evil. The kids and their parents were used as human shields and propaganda tools, IMO.

CNN's Shameful Town Hall Is a Clarifying Moment on Guns

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...ll_is_a_clarifying_moment_on_guns_136351.html

Do Not Let the Children Lead

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/02/21/do_not_let_the_children_lead_136328.html

Will CNN now have a Townhall devoted to the "new" policies in schools in many states that are going to extreme measures to avoid involving law enforcement in crimes on K-12 campuses?

Will CNN investigate why it is that NC had no criminal referrals and criminal history, despite numerous campus infractions?

Will CNN agree that the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS who intentionally and actively avoided involving law enforcement in NC's campus infractions made it possible for NC to legally purchase his rifle? No, I don't think so. Because it doesn't fit their narrative.

The kids should be angry with their school districts, boards, and administrators-- every time they sweep under the rug criminal and violent infractions as something to be handled internally with school discipline, they are COMPLICIT in advancing that student's criminal career, and making school violence and shootings more likely.

School admin played a part in putting that rifle into NC's hands-- that is the harsh truth that no one wants to talk about. Let's have a CNN Townhall about those issues.

This latest "Townhall" was really a new disgusting low-- it wasn't a "conversation" at all-- it was a bully session, a propaganda rally. CNN has morphed into something exactly like the "news" propaganda machines in repressive regimes like North Korea, IMO. It was very sick and sad to see.

I'm sad that Dana Loesch agreed to do that Townhall. I like what she has to say, I think she's very intelligent, very knowledgeable, certainly very photogenic, and very sincere and rational in her beliefs. She represents the views of a tremendous amount of people here in the U.S. DL was the sacrificial lamb at slaughter for the CNN Townhall-- which she absolutely knew, and went anyway, and TRIED to participate in an earnest manner. She was nearly attacked violently onstage, called a murderer, shouted down repeatedly, and had to have a security escort to be safe. So much for civil discourse and "free speech", right? There was never ANY intention by CNN to allow a real conversation or respectful discourse on any aspect of guns or gun control, IMO.

I don't think she should be called names in this thread. I don't think that's fair at all.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/23/dana-loesch-heres-real-story-happened-cnns-garbage-town-hall/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/dana-loesch-cpac-media/index.html

 

[rsd1200]

It is hard to criticise police though, because he has a right to own guns, through the 2nd amendment. The police can't remove his guns or arrest him for a crime he might possibly commit in the future, as they don't know if he was going to do anything.

Agree, and he was expelled from the school. He was not a student. Wore his JROTC shirt to blend right in. All of the red flags were there but he just fell right through. Unless parents keep firearms out of the hands of children, it will continue. Although, in this instance, he had no parents and could legally own a rifle , so I'm okay with upping the age to 21 unless there is a specific reason. Otherwise, keep them locked up, and go hunting or target shooting w/your kid if you want, and then lock them right back up.

 

[rsd1200]

Was everyone afraid of violating Cruz’s second amendment rights?

Honest question.

No, but there wasn't enough to Baker Act him from I gather. Also, while he was at the friend's home, they didn't see anything iirc. My kid had one of his friend's parents, (they were new the area), thinking he had no family here. Me, my spouse, my ex, and my parents, have lived, pretty much, within the same spot since we were born! This family allowed him to sleep on their couch! He was over 18 and out of my control. I went to see one of my kid's performances and I met the lady. She was simply stunned to learn who I was and where I lived. I was simply stunned to learn he'd been sleeping on her couch! Just because they have behavioral issues doesn't mean that they are not smart.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Great posts! My husband taught for 29 years...first fifth grade and then second. His students returned to visit him at school through high school and even have contacted him well into adulthood. Any one of them could have entered his class with a gun. No way could he take aim and shoot one of them, even years later.

Yes, he had occasion to tell a few parents that without intervention their child could end up in trouble with the law. But could he have shot at even the “worst” kids? Of course not! He told me more than once that he would give his life to protect “his kids.” I don’t think I would want my child in a classroom with a teacher willing to kill. Too much could go wrong and too much is wrong with that picture.
JMO

Very insightful. Would teachers feel more empowered with the ability to incapacitate a shooter? I know I would.

Whatever happened with the officer, if he froze it is perhaps the best example of why teachers should not be packing heat. How on earth could a handgun be a match with an AR? How does the focus on lethal force on a human being come in to play when a teacher who might be a great marksman or markswoman has zero boots on the ground experience in LE or war?

A retired LE officer driving me to the airport told me a high powered flash light was a great defense tool. That and a frying pan are really accessible, too.

One fear I have is that I'd accidentally kill someone I knew, or someone needing help. You read about this in the news, a person accidentally shooting a neighbor or friend thinking they were an intruder. I could not live with myself if that ever happened.

So, the thoughts conveyed from our teachers are so very important.

I am opposed to drafting our educators into a war they never signed up for. Great teachers are sometimes the only light in a child's life. Nothing should interfere with that relationship.

Also, humans are fallible, some teachers have been arrested for inappropriate relationships with students. Adding handguns to this potential mix further jeopardizes children.

 

[Elley Mae]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florid...ng-plan-to-improve-school-safety-live-stream/

Scott says he wants to make it "virtually impossible for anyone who has mental issues to use a gun" and "for anyone who is a danger to themselves or others to use a gun."

There was also a 20 minute delay in the school's video surveillance system that caused confusion for deputies who did go in to confront the shooter, making the information received on their radios inaccurate, though police say that did not endanger more lives.

 

[rsd1200]

Great posts! My husband taught for 29 years...first fifth grade and then second. His students returned to visit him at school through high school and even have contacted him well into adulthood. Any one of them could have entered his class with a gun. No way could he take aim and shoot one of them, even years later.

Yes, he had occasion to tell a few parents that without intervention their child could end up in trouble with the law. But could he have shot at even the “worst” kids? Of course not! He told me more than once that he would give his life to protect “his kids.” I don’t think I would want my child in a classroom with a teacher willing to kill. Too much could go wrong and too much is wrong with that picture.
JMO

BBM

I think this could be where the booklet, Ten Lessons, could be helpful to teachers, in identifying kids w/the potential of being school shooters. Is it fail proof? No. It is rather enlightening though. Seems to be a common thread among them though.

 

[K_Z]

And if NC had been properly referred for criminal investigation and charges even a few of the many infractions at school, or the 30+ domestic violence calls to the home, then he WOULD HAVE had a criminal record that would have prevented him from legally purchasing his rifle.

That said, I'm fine with raising the age to purchase all guns to 21. I'm fine with banning the rare and not readily available "bump stocks".

Neither of those things will prevent mass shootings, or school shootings. But they are easily agreed on by both sides, so will likely pass into law soon.

But developing a mechanism to permanently remove disturbed kids from mainstream general education? Developing criteria to remove disturbed kids permanently from public schools? Developing a functional residential treatment center network for disturbed adolescents? Increasing outpatient commitments for disturbed youth? These are the strategies we need to be focusing on to make real, effective, long term progress with these disturbed youth. But I don't see any real focus on these things as priorities. It's just so much easier to whip up a frenzy over more gun restrictions.

We will continue to have more school shootings, IMO, until we get serious about getting these disturbed kids properly identified and diagnosed EARLY, into mandatory treatment (including removal from their homes into residential treatment when necessary), processed thru the criminal justice system when they commit violent crimes, threats, and weapons infractions, and permanently removed from general education settings.

 

[Tillicum]

Ugh, I’m sorry, Elley. It wasn’t specifically directed at you. Apologies I wasn’t clearer.

It’s a general question for everyone here.

IMO this is why we are where we are today.

https://www.publicsource.org/these-...-pipeline-can-pittsburgh-learn-their-lessons/

Take Broward County, the Florida county that used to rank No. 1 at sending students to their state’s juvenile justice system.

The stats troubled Broward County leaders, and they responded with a bold solution: Lower arrests by not making arrests.

After examining juvenile data, a local task force compiled 12 misdemeanor offenses that would no longer be considered police matters. Criminal mischief and vandalism, for example.

The results were quickly positive.

In 2011-12, Broward County officers made 1,062 school-related arrests. That dropped to 392 in 2015-16, putting the rate of school-related arrests among the lowest in the state.

School district officials say the strategy allowed schools to respond more constructively to normal teenage behavior, without hurting police ability to respond to serious crime.

“We’re not compromising school safety. We’re really saving the lives of kids,” said Michaelle Valbrun-Pope, executive director of Student Support Initiatives for Broward County Public Schools.

 

[kittythehare]

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3...ot-guarantee-that-every-civilian-can-bear-any

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]BY MAX GREENWOOD - 02/23/18 02:22 PM EST[/FONT] 232[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

© Greg Nash

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]A House Republican from Florida is backing an assault weapon ban following last week's shooting at a high school in his state that left 17 dead.
Rep. Brian Mast (R-Fla.), who faces a competitive reelection race this fall, wrote in an op-ed Friday that the Second Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms should not apply to all guns.
"The Second Amendment is unimpeachable," Mast wrote in The New York Times. "It guarantees the right of citizens to defend themselves. I accept, however, that it does not guarantee that every civilian can bear any and all arms."
[/FONT]

[/FONT]


[/FONT]

 

[Elley Mae]

Scott also said he opposed allowing teachers to carry weapons in schools, a proposal that President Trump has been promoting. The legislative leaders, by contrast, said they would allow local sheriff’s offices to deputize teachers as armed “school marshals” if they completed 130 hours of training and passed other background checks.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...c444f6-18a6-11e8-8b08-027a6ccb38eb_story.html

Under all of the Republican proposals in Florida, there would be exceptions allowing active duty and reserve military and spouses, National Guard members, and law enforcement over the age of 18 to purchase a gun. While federal law bans those under the age of 21 from buying a handgun, current state law in Florida allows 18-year-olds to purchase rifles, including semiautomatic weapons like the one used in the most recent shooting.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3...ot-guarantee-that-every-civilian-can-bear-any

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]BY MAX GREENWOOD - 02/23/18 02:22 PM EST[/FONT] 232[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

© Greg Nash

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]A House Republican from Florida is backing an assault weapon ban following last week's shooting at a high school in his state that left 17 dead.
Rep. Brian Mast (R-Fla.), who faces a competitive reelection race this fall, wrote in an op-ed Friday that the Second Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms should not apply to all guns.
"The Second Amendment is unimpeachable," Mast wrote in The New York Times. "It guarantees the right of citizens to defend themselves. I accept, however, that it does not guarantee that every civilian can bear any and all arms."
[/FONT]

[/FONT]


[/FONT]

If the term “assault weapon” is used the ar-15 will be exempt, it’s not.

 

[Blef]

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/3...ot-guarantee-that-every-civilian-can-bear-any

[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]BY MAX GREENWOOD - 02/23/18 02:22 PM EST[/FONT] 232[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]

© Greg Nash

[FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]A House Republican from Florida is backing an assault weapon ban following last week's shooting at a high school in his state that left 17 dead.
Rep. Brian Mast (R-Fla.), who faces a competitive reelection race this fall, wrote in an op-ed Friday that the Second Amendment guarantee of the right to bear arms should not apply to all guns.
"The Second Amendment is unimpeachable," Mast wrote in The New York Times. "It guarantees the right of citizens to defend themselves. I accept, however, that it does not guarantee that every civilian can bear any and all arms."
[/FONT]
[/FONT]


[/FONT]

Bravo that man

 

[Tricia]

I am getting several alerts on this post.

We need to have a discussion. You can't have a discussion without all sides joining in. As much as some of you disagree with this post I am going to let it stand. I know the poster linked to opinion pieces and not mainstream media articles. I will let those opinion pieces stand as well since they are from very well known commentators. If they were some random person no one has ever heard of that would be different.

Again, we need to discuss the other side of a topic. Not shut it down.

Tricia

The CNN Townhall was, at best, catharsis of grief, and emotionally satisfying "rave" for anti-gun activists, certainly.

At worst, IMO, it was a thoroughly shameful and disgusting exploitation of profound and raw grief, and the exploitation of carefully selected youth.

The Townhall was masterful in it's deceptive manipulation-- the message was that if you at all disagree with the anti-gun message of these eloquent grieving kids, you are evil. The kids and their parents were used as human shields and propaganda tools, IMO.



https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a...ll_is_a_clarifying_moment_on_guns_136351.html



https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/02/21/do_not_let_the_children_lead_136328.html

Will CNN now have a Townhall devoted to the "new" policies in schools in many states that are going to extreme measures to avoid involving law enforcement in crimes on K-12 campuses?

Will CNN investigate why it is that NC had no criminal referrals and criminal history, despite numerous campus infractions?

Will CNN agree that the SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS who intentionally and actively avoided involving law enforcement in NC's campus infractions made it possible for NC to legally purchase his rifle? No, I don't think so. Because it doesn't fit their narrative.

The kids should be angry with their school districts, boards, and administrators-- every time they sweep under the rug criminal and violent infractions as something to be handled internally with school discipline, they are COMPLICIT in advancing that student's criminal career, and making school violence and shootings more likely.

School admin played a part in putting that rifle into NC's hands-- that is the harsh truth that no one wants to talk about. Let's have a CNN Townhall about those issues.

This latest "Townhall" was really a new disgusting low-- it wasn't a "conversation" at all-- it was a bully session, a propaganda rally. CNN has morphed into something exactly like the "news" propaganda machines in repressive regimes like North Korea, IMO. It was very sick and sad to see.

I'm sad that Dana Loesch agreed to do that Townhall. I like what she has to say, I think she's very intelligent, very knowledgeable, certainly very photogenic, and very sincere and rational in her beliefs. She represents the views of a tremendous amount of people here in the U.S. DL was the sacrificial lamb at slaughter for the CNN Townhall-- which she absolutely knew, and went anyway, and TRIED to participate in an earnest manner. She was nearly attacked violently onstage, called a murderer, shouted down repeatedly, and had to have a security escort to be safe. So much for civil discourse and "free speech", right? There was never ANY intention by CNN to allow a real conversation or respectful discourse on any aspect of guns or gun control, IMO.

I don't think she should be called names in this thread. I don't think that's fair at all.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/02/23/dana-loesch-heres-real-story-happened-cnns-garbage-town-hall/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/22/politics/dana-loesch-cpac-media/index.html

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

While we're discussing difficult topics related to gun control, I'm sick and tired of the news media being blamed and insulted and scapegoated.

 

[Blef]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florid...ng-plan-to-improve-school-safety-live-stream/

Scott says he wants to make it "virtually impossible for anyone who has mental issues to use a gun" and "for anyone who is a danger to themselves or others to use a gun."

There was also a 20 minute delay in the school's video surveillance system that caused confusion for deputies who did go in to confront the shooter, making the information received on their radios inaccurate, though police say that did not endanger more lives.

I wonder how Scott is going to predict a future mental health issue, once that person already has a gun? Maybe Scott should research that the majority of these shooters get hold of legally held guns and ammo from their parents. If the parent has no mental health issue, then the guns and ammo will still be accessible.

 

[kittythehare]

I wonder how Scott is going to predict a future mental health issue, once that person already has a gun? Maybe Scott should research that the majority of these shooters get hold of legally held guns and ammo from their parents. If the parent has no mental health issue, then the guns and ammo will still be accessible.

and not a word about ar15's.. I know there are very many gun types that fall into the category.. can we decide what we are calling them? I cannot call them dangerous guns... What word can I use?

 

[rsd1200]

I wonder how Scott is going to predict a future mental health issue, once that person already has a gun? Maybe Scott should research that the majority of these shooters get hold of legally held guns and ammo from their parents. If the parent has no mental health issue, then the guns and ammo will still be accessible.

Exactly. If parents would only lock up their firearms.

 

[kittythehare]

Exactly. If parents would only lock up their firearms.

It's not just teenagers.
adults use them too..
Terrorists use them
Anti-govs use them.
There's a helluva lot of them out there.
(white house is on lockdown reports nbc, cnn reckon a vehicle struck a security barrier
probably a thing of nothing)

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Jumping off this post. Not directed at KZ.

The inflammatory rhetoric from some corners is unacceptable and insulting, imo. It minimizes the legitimate voices of victims and their families, and I believe it's dangerous.

We react to the insults and rhetoric and lose focus of the issue: Protecting our children and communities from mass slaughter and enacting reasonable gun safety legislation. MOO.

From my understanding, this thread is about the gun control debate and not specifically about whom to blame for the Florida school massacre, imo. I'm glad and thankful we're all here to discuss those topics here.

97 percent of Americans (and 97 percent of gun owners — survey link posted upthread) agree that some sort of common-sense gun safety regulations should be passed. Almost all of America.

In my opinion, that's where this thread's discussion (and of the U.S.) is going.

That's hugely bipartisan support, because this isn't a Left-Right issue.

It just isn't. In my humble opinion.

Let's please not make it into one.

(respectfully snipped for focus)

The CNN Townhall was, at best, catharsis of grief, and emotionally satisfying "rave" for anti-gun activists, certainly.

At worst, IMO, it was a thoroughly shameful and disgusting exploitation of profound and raw grief, and the exploitation of carefully selected youth.

The Townhall was masterful in it's deceptive manipulation-- the message was that if you at all disagree with the anti-gun message of these eloquent grieving kids, you are evil. The kids and their parents were used as human shields and propaganda tools, IMO.

(snip)
School admin played a part in putting that rifle into NC's hands-- that is the harsh truth that no one wants to talk about. Let's have a CNN Townhall about those issues.

(snip)
This latest "Townhall" was really a new disgusting low-- it wasn't a "conversation" at all-- it was a bully session, a propaganda rally. CNN has morphed into something exactly like the "news" propaganda machines in repressive regimes like North Korea, IMO. It was very sick and sad to see.

(snip)
I'm sad that Dana Loesch agreed to do that Townhall. I like what she has to say, I think she's very intelligent, very knowledgeable, certainly very photogenic, and very sincere and rational in her beliefs. (snip) I don't think she should be called names in this thread. I don't think that's fair at all.

 

[CADwrest]

and not a word about ar15's.. I know there are very many gun types that fall into the category.. can we decide what we are calling them? I cannot call them dangerous guns... What word can I use?

BBM

"Semi-automatic rifles" is the most accurate way of referring to them.