Gun Control Debate #2

[CARIIS]

Here is a story worth reading

Balancing counseling and punishment following threats at local schools

IIRC it was mentioned, on the Stoneman Douglas thread, that Finland and Switzerland also have a high rate of guns per capita, yet they do not have school shootings like we do, nor threats made against their schools.

Finland also ranks as having one of the best education systems in the world. Switzerland also does. IOW they place an extremely high value on education, academics, learning. It sounds like students in these two named nations want to learn.

Meanwhile back at the homestead...

We have kids who cannot wait to get out of school, will make an excuse to get out of school or see it closed, which is coming from all of these "copycats." Here in Sarasota County and Manatee County we had five incidences alone within the past week since Feb 14 of threats made by students via SM.

While parenting can certainly be cited as a problem - here maybe the most important one being the failure to teach their children not to draw attention to themselves (something my own dear late mother used to say when I was a kid it did not take me long to "blend in" or make myself very small in the world), the ongoing issues public schools have (and it does seem that most of these school shooting threats via SM are directed at public schools), and instead of leveling the playing field, raise and reward the academic achievement standards. That should be the primary goal of public schools. Likewise, academics should be the only agenda public schools have. Any other agendas should be done away with as they are not conducive to children's learning processes, are a waste of time and taxpayer dollars.

So, once these changes have been made on the end of public schools, have proper security individuals in the schools, armed teachers (MOO I think is very important since it is the teachers who are responsible for their students on school grounds), atmosphere of safety has returned, only then can public schools become a truly conducive learning environment.

ugh

an armed role model is ideal especially in first second and third grade

mommy I want a gun mrs jones has one its so cool

thankfully most of the stuff that comes out of there mouths never happens !!

Hell sign another memo -- they have the power of :

Please review these ideas and get back to me no later than 2021

 

[Blef]

I never said anything about an unloaded 22 in a safe. I would think anyone who wanted to have the option of defending themselves, would have a handgun concealed somewhere on their person. And not a 22 caliber, but 9mm minimum.

Then how do you stop a determined student who now has access to a gun in the classroom from overpowering the teacher, taking the 9mm and killing everyone in the classroom? How is that any better? Now the gunman doesn't need to steal mommy or daddy's gun because the teacher has a 9mm that will do the job right there inside the school.

 

[sorrell skye]

Respectfully snipped for focus.

He had more than 30 years experience. Hired by Broward Co. Sheriff’s dept. in 1985 and had worked at the school since 2009.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html



ETA: link

From your link http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

Peterson has been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He began working for the BCSO in 1985. His annual salary in 2016 was $75,673.72, according to Sheriff’s office records.

A seasoned armed guard, employed by BCSO since 2009 - yet he balked in the face of danger.

The NRA insists that the solution to combat school shooters is to station armed guards in schools.

I would say that their argument is weak, based upon the evidence of an armed guard at Stoneman Douglas High School who cowered in a corner while helpless children were being slaughtered.

 

[CARIIS]

True and the sheriff said yesterday that they will now be carrying rifles.

are they stronger? When I think of rifle I think of ANdy Griffith and they only shoot two before reloading?

Compared to cop gun that shoot a lot right?

Why would that be more deadly ( great news!)

 

[KaaBoom]

ugh

an armed role model is ideal especially in first second and third grade

mommy I want a gun mrs jones has one its so cool

Exactly, which is exactly what the NRA wants. An entire generation of kids are growing up to think this is a totally normal way of living. Everyday they have to fear that an armed gunman will break into their classroom and kill them and all their classmates. So of course as soon as they are old enough they will want to buy guns for protection. The NRA will be there to sell them the guns. $$$$$$$$$$

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

deputy police officer, aka sheriff's deputy

I do not know which employer he worked for but was called a Security Guard (not a police officer or deputy) and won some sort of award in 2014. This was from a link posted upthread.

Patrol Officer vs. Sheriff's Deputy vs. Correctional Officer

 

[kimlynn]

I watched an interview with him on another channel and to be honest I felt uncomfortable with it. I believe him too but I fear these children will be used on both sides. I actually feel concerned for him now that he's spoken out. IMO those with views different from the majority we've seen in the media, won't want to speak out. All JMO

I have had that concern as well for all the kids that are speaking out. Not so much that they will be used but that they may now be targets of any twisted person that wants debate to stop. IMO

 

[bobcat]

Then how do you stop a determined student who now has access to a gun in the classroom from overpowering the teacher, taking the 9mm and killing everyone in the classroom? How is that any better? Now the gunman doesn't need to steal mommy or daddy's gun because the teacher has a 9mm that will do the job right there inside the school.

If one carries a concealed weapon, the key word is “concealed.” Nobody should ever know that it’s there.

 

[CARIIS]

I think it was Sen.Nelson that said his fear was of LE arriving and not being able to determine if the armed teacher was protecting the kids or if the teacher was the actual shooter of the children. IMO
I don't think we should be adding more risk of deaths into the situation.

Totally they make kids get there hands up al the time but there gonna let some strange teacher they dont know be running around
with a little gun -- they will get blown away by arriving trained people who want to do this kind of thing .

Its rife for more bloodshed and they will never be able to implement it

If one carries a concealed weapon, the key word is “concealed.” Nobody should ever know that it’s there.

This is FL Average temp is 121!!! They wear blazers or something !!

Where are female teachers concealing there guns??

This is just a impulsive utterance that has no study behind it , it was an utterance.

Like had anyone ever heard of this notion before ? He spurt it out on fly

 

[rsd1200]

She's a beaut, rsd.

How many rounds can it handle; what capacity is the magazine?

It's been awhile since I've shot this one, and this is not the exact semi that I got him, just a similar one. Iirc, it holds six. One in the chamber and five ready (iirc). This is where that I think that some clarification on rifles and handguns and semis and bolt actions and automatics and chambers and magazines, needs to be fleshed out too. There is no one single fix. It has to be looked at from all sides. Should LE have Baker Acted the Palmdale kid? Should they have confiscated the firearms, in his home, and flagged him? I think so. I think they need to look, too, at where they could have done better, and make some changes. Honestly this kid should not have even had a pointy stick.

 

[CARIIS]

Exactly, which is exactly what the NRA wants. An entire generation of kids are growing up to think this is a totally normal way of living. Everyday they have to fear that an armed gunman will break into their classroom and kill them and all their classmates. So of course as soon as they are old enough they will want to buy guns for protection. The NRA will be there to sell them the guns. $$$$$$$$$$

So agree. But I tell myself most of the stuff uttered out of Washington , thank god , goes nowhere!

Transgendered (thankfully) are proudly serving, Keystone pipe nothing off shore drilling takes 15 years to get one up etc etc

He wil forget about this in about 14 hours and go back to Russia big breaking news in that arena so that will distract him \

it wont happen !!

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

All a school can do is try to make sure and hire the right people for the job at hand. The hiring process must be taken very seriously.

rsbm

Respectfully, how much more seriously should it be taken? Is it not taken seriously now? This guard had decades worth of experience and training. Would an armed and trained school teacher defy those odds and find it easier to shoot to kill?

Maybe. He would already be on the other side of the door with the killer.

So they didn't take his hiring seriously how?

?????

Apologies, Tillicum! There's a lot of movement in this thread.

I'll clarify.

Back to the original question first (rbbm): How did they fail in the hiring process of this officer, or not take it seriously enough?

How can they do it better and take it more seriously? More/different credentialing or training? Military?

To the second question, which I asked as part of a related statement about hiring security guards: How would a citizen teacher with a gun defy the odds that even seasoned law enforcement officers are challenged to beat?

Sorry to be so confusing. Hope that helps.

 

[Tawny]

Best gun control solution.

1. Require states to regulate firearms exactly as they do motor vehicles. Including firearms licenses for all gun owners. Registration and proof of liability insurance for each gun. Failure to comply would result in firearms and or motor vehicles being impounded.

2. Universal free health care services for everyone, with a requirement that everyone get a check up, at least once a year with a medical doctor and once a year with a psychiatrist. The check ups would include the doctors certifying that the patients are well and fit to operate a motor vehicle or use a firearm. Failing to get that certification would immediately result in suspension of driver's license and firearms license, and motor vehicles and firearms would be impounded until the person is certified well enough to operate a motor vehicle or use a gun.

Yup. I tell you what, if you make it inconvenient to own more than one firearm, families will only own enough to defend themselves and that's it. That's all you NEED. Wanna play with a bigger firearm? Go to the range and check one out.

Please link me to stories where some helpless old biddie saved her family from a gang of marauders with an AR style tactical rifle. I'll wait.

RSBM ~ I saw that. Sickening.

It's sickening that they exercised their 1st Amendment rights? Good to know where you stand on this.

Exactly. Imagine a grade school teacher having to try and safeguard their children, but also trying to get their locked up pistol and ammo from a safe, then putting themselves in the line of a guy with a rifle, who is randomly spraying bullets around, while still trying to safeguard their children. It's a ludicrous situation for anyone to be put in.

Imagine a teacher who has a concealed carry being overpowered by some disaffected teen who then shoots up the classroom anyway. Gunfights in the hallway are not the answer to this problem

It is astounding that ANYBODY thinks this is even remotely a good idea.

I never said anything about an unloaded 22 in a safe. I would think anyone who wanted to have the option of defending themselves, would have a handgun concealed somewhere on their person. And not a 22 caliber, but 9mm minimum.

When I was in seventh grade, a troubled kid finally lost his **** and attacked our teacher while we dissected worms. The teacher, one of the most nurturing and caring men I've ever known, was forced to wrestle this kid to the ground and hold him until the police arrived.

Imagine if he'd been armed. Imagine if he'd had his back turned helping a kid and this troubled kid snatched his weapon while he was distracted? Or worse, imagine if he had to make the decision to open fire on this kid? These teachers look to these kids as if they are their own children most of the time. Could you open fire on your child? Why would we ask this of TEACHERS who are there to educate, who are not soldiers, who are not trained? We hear about police retiring early after having to shoot people all the time because the affect killing has on the psyche, yet we gon' sit here and ask Mrs Campbell the 1st Grade teacher at Pickle Dill Elementary School to shoot down a child she taught spelling and arithmetic to six years prior? That is the most unsympathetic, cold, and uncaring thing we could ever ask these teachers to do.

Ok so it's optional to carry. Kid starts shooting up the cafeteria and the teachers are NOT armed. Good luck to them when everyone attacks them for not doing enough to save the children because they weren't comfortable taking a life. There is absolutely NO good side to this. I know like a dozen teachers personally and not one single one of them is even open to considering carry a firearm. ****ing absurd.

 

[rsd1200]

AR15. I'm sorry, it was an AR15 that was used in Florida. Legally bought. Lethal to 17 people. And obviously something that someone in suburban Florida has to have to protect themselves. Own a gun, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But how can anyone say that owning this kind of weapon is justified? Are you guys in the States living in a war zone?

A motorbike is different. It's an obtuse argument. A vehicle is not designed solely to kill or maim. I'm a biker. The vast majority of bikers are killed or injured due to car drivers hitting them.

"The Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as four or more people shot in one incident (not including the shooter), reported more than 14,000 people killed and over 29,000 injured in 2017 because of mass shootings. 14,000 people in 345 mass shootings in one year."

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/


​

He should never have been able to purchase that firearm. I'm all for raising the age to 21. I'm all for Baker Acting folks with mental disturbances, I'm all for domestic violence offenders having their firearms removed (my friend was both shot and stabbed by her former demonic spouse and they'd just ask what she did to upset him). If they want to do away with a single firearm, the AR-15, it's not going to help. I own a semi but it's not even an AR-15. The states that have banned them, have seen mfgs modify their firearms to meet the requirements but they're still semis.

 

[jillycat]

From your link http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

Peterson has been a school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas since 2009. He began working for the BCSO in 1985. His annual salary in 2016 was $75,673.72, according to Sheriff’s office records.

A seasoned armed guard, employed by BCSO since 2009 - yet he balked in the face of danger.

The NRA insists that the solution to combat school shooters is to station armed guards in schools.

I would say that their argument is weak, based upon the evidence of an armed guard at Stoneman Douglas High School who cowered in a corner while helpless children were being slaughtered.

I don't see where he "cowered in a corner"? I do see where the sheriff acknowledged that he/a guard could have killed the shooter.

And I'm not sure why no school with armed guards is a viable option because one school's guard failed.

 

[kimlynn]

I don't see where he "cowered in a corner"? I do see where the sheriff acknowledged that he/a guard could have killed the shooter.

And I'm not sure why no school with armed guards is a viable option because one school's guard failed.

Columbine had two armed officers and fired several shots and missed their targets. IMO

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

He should never have been able to purchase that firearm. I'm all for raising the age to 21. I'm all for Baker Acting folks with mental disturbances, I'm all for domestic violence offenders having their firearms removed (my friend was both shot and stabbed by her former demonic spouse and they'd just ask what she did to upset him). If they want to do away with a single firearm, the AR-15, it's not going to help. I own a semi but it's not even an AR-15. The states that have banned them, have seen mfgs modify their firearms to meet the requirements but they're still semis.

So I’m pretty sure that you’re saying that gun ownership should be made into a **privilege** than a right.

And I think that may be the trend .....

 

[rsd1200]

Yup. I tell you what, if you make it inconvenient to own more than one firearm, families will only own enough to defend themselves and that's it. That's all you NEED. Wanna play with a bigger firearm? Go to the range and check one out.

Please link me to stories where some helpless old biddie saved her family from a gang of marauders with an AR style tactical rifle. I'll wait.



It's sickening that they exercised their 1st Amendment rights? Good to know where you stand on this.



It is astounding that ANYBODY thinks this is even remotely a good idea.



When I was in seventh grade, a troubled kid finally lost his **** and attacked our teacher while we dissected worms. The teacher, one of the most nurturing and caring men I've ever known, was forced to wrestle this kid to the ground and hold him until the police arrived.

Imagine if he'd been armed. Imagine if he'd had his back turned helping a kid and this troubled kid snatched his weapon while he was distracted? Or worse, imagine if he had to make the decision to open fire on this kid? These teachers look to these kids as if they are their own children most of the time. Could you open fire on your child? Why would we ask this of TEACHERS who are there to educate, who are not soldiers, who are not trained? We hear about police retiring early after having to shoot people all the time because the affect killing has on the psyche, yet we gon' sit here and ask Mrs Campbell the 1st Grade teacher at Pickle Dill Elementary School to shoot down a child she taught spelling and arithmetic to six years prior? That is the most unsympathetic, cold, and uncaring thing we could ever ask these teachers to do.

Ok so it's optional to carry. Kid starts shooting up the cafeteria and the teachers are NOT armed. Good luck to them when everyone attacks them for not doing enough to save the children because they weren't comfortable taking a life. There is absolutely NO good side to this. I know like a dozen teachers personally and not one single one of them is even open to considering carry a firearm. ****ing absurd.

I've got several teacher friends and family members, I don't know of a single one who wants to carry. They're not anti-gun, but they've got too much on their plate already, in busy classrooms, to have to also serve as a security guard.

 

[Tawny]

I don't see where he "cowered in a corner"? I do see where the sheriff acknowledged that he/a guard could have killed the shooter.

And I'm not sure why no school with armed guards is a viable option because one school's guard failed.

We seem to forget that 9 times out of 10, the shooter is a kid who attends/attended that school. The staff knows the kids, they see them every day, they become like an extended family. I wouldn't be able to open fire on any of the teens I see playing on the playgrounds around here, much less a kid I'm familiar with, and I AM a trained marksman.

Why do we seem to believe it's so damn easy to point a gun at another human, much less a KID, and pull the trigger? Because Bruce Willis does it in movies? Y'all it's devastating and human nature leans toward NOT killing other humans. We are a tribal, community based species. Our instinct is not to kill other members of our species, so most people will hesitate and then they're gone and it's on to the next. One lil ol handgun against a kid dual wielding rapid fire tactical rifles? Give me a break.

How about me make it next to impossible for some random kid to acquire that kind of firepower? Novel idea.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

It's been a long time since I fired one like that. And I agree (rbbm).

The problem with confiscating the shooter's weapons earlier would be that somehow, he had no felony history, and (as far as I know) no court had adjudicated him incompetent or an imminent danger to himself or others.

That's where the legal wicket gets sticky, imho. Perhaps a "mental health restraining order," as (Rubio?) someone proposed might work in an instance like this, but I'm not confident it would have. Nobody could get the FBI or police to take it seriously. Not sure leaving it to the non-family (parents died) who were close to the guy could have gotten anyone to listen, either. Non-family has even less power. Unfortunately.

It's been awhile since I've shot this one, and this is not the exact semi that I got him, just a similar one. Iirc, it holds six. One in the chamber and five ready (iirc). This is where that I think that some clarification on rifles and handguns and semis and bolt actions and automatics and chambers and magazines, needs to be fleshed out too. There is no one single fix. It has to be looked at from all sides. Should LE have Baker Acted the Palmdale kid? Should they have confiscated the firearms, in his home, and flagged him? I think so. I think they need to look, too, at where they could have done better, and make some changes. Honestly this kid should not have even had a pointy stick.