Gun Control Debate #2

[Blef]

How about

c) all of the above?

I don't see it as an either/ or but more of a concerted effort on multiple levels.

Address the root, definitely. Ban automatics and high-round magazines and x and y and z and Blef's proverbial military assault weapon-packing SUV-driving soccer-mom, but also address the day-to-day reality that our kids have inherited.

We also need to teach our children to be safe and do whatever we can to protect them from this special hell we have created. Paid security, armed teachers, metal detectors, lockdown drills, gun awareness, whatever.

I think it will require consistent efforts from numerous seemingly-juxtaposed angles to achieve any measure of real progress, and sadly, there are no guarantees here. MOO

With the vast majority of these school shooters getting their high powered assault rifles and high-round magazines from mommy and daddy (stats shown in other thread), who obviously haven't thought about storing their guns and ammo well away from their teenagers, I think that it's sensible. Control is the issue, control who can buy a high powered rifle, have them licensed so that they are used by hunters/clay pigeon shooters. Make people explain why they require such a high powered weapon. And then ENSURE that these weapons and ammo are kept away from anyone not licensed so that 15 year old Timmy cannot go and shoot up a school.

 

[Tillicum]

I agree for the most part but please note that Security Guards in the area are given a fairly quick training and get paid between $11.00 to $16.00 per hour. This is for “G” certified Armed Security Guards. Unarmed make less. And arming a school would seem less threatening than a bank or other locations.

In reality, when faced with an AR-15 and all you have is a handgun, one must be SWAT trained to be able to maneuver to fire a deadly shot while the criminal is literally spraying bullets everywhere and moving at random.

I’m not defending this Security Guard but just presenting a bit of reality into the situation.

We can all speculate what our actions should be when alone in that tense and startling moment but I feel to respond effectively to an active shooter, one needs SWAT/military/LE or continuous and rigorous training. And nobody is paying the salary for that quality or skill set.

Did he work for a security firm or for the Sheriff's department?

 

[Blef]

Except that 50% of mass shooters kill themselves after the attack. So at least half of them are not worried about dying. Most of the rest know that the police will be there in minutes, and there is a good chance they will be killed. So they are not too worried about dying either.

Other problems. In very few cases has an armed citizen ever been able to stop a mass shooter. In most cases they don't want to get involved for fear of police mistaking them as the gunman. In the Sutherland Springs case, 26 people were already dead by the time "the good guy with a gun", was able to take him out. So even if an armed teacher could kill a mass shooter, dozens of students would likely already be dead by that point.

Now imagine the police arriving on an active shooter call to find multiple teachers exchanging gunfire with a mass shooter? Arming teachers is like fighting a fire with gasoline.

Exactly. Imagine a grade school teacher having to try and safeguard their children, but also trying to get their locked up pistol and ammo from a safe, then putting themselves in the line of a guy with a rifle, who is randomly spraying bullets around, while still trying to safeguard their children. It's a ludicrous situation for anyone to be put in.

Imagine a teacher who has a concealed carry being overpowered by some disaffected teen who then shoots up the classroom anyway. Gunfights in the hallway are not the answer to this problem

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Respectfully snipped for focus.

He had more than 30 years experience. Hired by Broward Co. Sheriff’s dept. in 1985 and had worked at the school since 2009.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...g-latest-updates-thursday-20180222-story.html

Epic fail in hiring this person as a security guard in the first place.

ETA: link

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Did he work for a security firm or for the Sheriff's department?

I do not know which employer he worked for but was called a Security Guard (not a police officer or deputy) and won some sort of award in 2014. This was from a link posted upthread.

 

[rsd1200]

So because it's fun to shoot you are happy that military grade rifles are available? That just doesn't make sense to me. A motorbike IS fun, but its not solely designed to kill or maim. An AK17 is a murder weapon.

Did you even look at my link? There's huge difference in semis and autos. I'm not sure about your AK17 but if you're talking about an AK47, I can't walk into a store and buy one of those. It's a fully automatic firearm, they're not sold in gun shops. They're illegal, since 1986. It is not a semi automatic.

I didn't jump for joy in 2004 when the ban was lifted. I didn't even know it was lifted for several years. We just got our other semi about a year ago. I bought my spouse, a semi very similar to the one pictured "semi", below, for Christmas one year. It is a Ruger 44 Carbine 44 Mag Semi Auto Rifle. My motorcycling very well nearly killed me, and some folks thought I was awful for nearly losing my life, and almost taking myself away from my family.

 

[Hatfield]

Hi Hat

I feel these are not distortions --IMO ( respectfully what we do here!) It is again IMO a sit - com idea.

Do you realize he guessed a number of 20% - MSNBC - that came out to like 700 000 teachers . Do the math. Its fiscally stupid. There would be more armed teachers than LE !!!

- utterly ridiculous. I have worked with these kids. NOw I suppose it would be a lucrative notion for the NRA !

The risk of them grabbing their armed arts and crafts teacher is more real than you might imagine my dear !!

Kids shoot each other daily over a video game. Really -- like one angry out of control isn't gonna grab the spelling teacher's gun and kill the peer .

A teacher gives a kid detention and he she grabs the gun and blows the teacher away.

The answer is NOT putting more guns around to prevent gun murders .

It identical to recommending vaseline petroleum jelly on wet roads --

Respectfully !

Watch teachers response -- teachers I would think have no desire to have more guns all over their schools jmo

Thanks Cariis. I was replying based just on the one article you replied to which clearly was talking about just certain staff that wanted to help protect the school. Not all teachers by any means.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/2...n-teachers-to-handle-guns-are-our-safety.html

But anyway I always enjoy reading your posts and I think I just need to take a little break for awhile.

I do value yours and anyone else opinions. Its really been interesting to hear both sides of this and we really have had some great ideas and suggestions here on WS.

At some point I want to go back through all the posts and pick out all the good suggestions so I dont lose them.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

rsbm

Respectfully, how much more seriously should it be taken? Is it not taken seriously now? This guard had decades worth of experience and training. Would an armed and trained school teacher defy those odds and find it easier to shoot to kill?

All a school can do is try to make sure and hire the right people for the job at hand. The hiring process must be taken very seriously.

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

I do not know which employer he worked for but was called a Security Guard (not a police officer or deputy) and won some sort of award in 2014. This was from a link posted upthread.

Hate to reply to my own quote but now I’m reading other links calling this Security Guard an “Officer” and “Deputy”.

If he was, and allegedly waited outside the school door per surveillance cameras for 4 minutes, this is terrible. But still......he was under armed......

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

She's a beaut, rsd.

How many rounds can it handle; what capacity is the magazine?

Did you even look at my link? There's huge difference in semis and autos. I'm not sure about your AK17 but if you're talking about an AK47, I can't walk into a store and buy one of those. It's a fully automatic firearm, they're not sold in gun shops. They're illegal, since 1986. It is not a semi automatic.

I didn't jump for joy in 2004 when the ban was lifted. I didn't even know it was lifted for several years. We just got our other semi about a year ago. I bought my spouse, a semi very similar to the one pictured "semi", below, for Christmas one year. It is a Ruger 44 Carbine 44 Mag Semi Auto Rifle. My motorcycling very well nearly killed me, and some folks thought I was awful for nearly losing my life, and almost taking myself away from my family.

 

[MaryG12]

Here is a story worth reading

Balancing counseling and punishment following threats at local schools

IIRC it was mentioned, on the Stoneman Douglas thread, that Finland and Switzerland also have a high rate of guns per capita, yet they do not have school shootings like we do, nor threats made against their schools.

Finland also ranks as having one of the best education systems in the world. Switzerland also does. IOW they place an extremely high value on education, academics, learning. It sounds like students in these two named nations want to learn.

Meanwhile back at the homestead...

We have kids who cannot wait to get out of school, will make an excuse to get out of school or see it closed, which is coming from all of these "copycats." Here in Sarasota County and Manatee County we had five incidences alone within the past week since Feb 14 of threats made by students via SM.

While parenting can certainly be cited as a problem - here maybe the most important one being the failure to teach their children not to draw attention to themselves (something my own dear late mother used to say when I was a kid it did not take me long to "blend in" or make myself very small in the world), the ongoing issues public schools have (and it does seem that most of these school shooting threats via SM are directed at public schools), and instead of leveling the playing field, raise and reward the academic achievement standards. That should be the primary goal of public schools. Likewise, academics should be the only agenda public schools have. Any other agendas should be done away with as they are not conducive to children's learning processes, are a waste of time and taxpayer dollars.

So, once these changes have been made on the end of public schools, have proper security individuals in the schools, armed teachers (MOO I think is very important since it is the teachers who are responsible for their students on school grounds), atmosphere of safety has returned, only then can public schools become a truly conducive learning environment.

 

[kimlynn]

Exactly. Imagine a grade school teacher having to try and safeguard their children, but also trying to get their locked up pistol and ammo from a safe, then putting themselves in the line of a guy with a rifle, who is randomly spraying bullets around, while still trying to safeguard their children. It's a ludicrous situation for anyone to be put in.

Imagine a teacher who has a concealed carry being overpowered by some disaffected teen who then shoots up the classroom anyway. Gunfights in the hallway are not the answer to this problem

I think it was Sen.Nelson that said his fear was of LE arriving and not being able to determine if the armed teacher was protecting the kids or if the teacher was the actual shooter of the children. IMO
I don't think we should be adding more risk of deaths into the situation.

 

[bobcat]

Do you honestly think a teacher with an unloaded .22, kept in a safe, is going to stop a kid with an arsenal of military grade weapons from attacking a school? Honestly?

I never said anything about an unloaded 22 in a safe. I would think anyone who wanted to have the option of defending themselves, would have a handgun concealed somewhere on their person. And not a 22 caliber, but 9mm minimum.

 

[Tillicum]

rsbm

Respectfully, how much more seriously should it be taken? Is it not taken seriously now? This guard had decades worth of experience and training. Would an armed and trained school teacher defy those odds and find it easier to shoot to kill?

Maybe. He would already be on the other side of the door with the killer.

 

[Tillicum]

Hate to reply to my own quote but now I’m reading other links calling this Security Guard an “Officer” and “Deputy”.

If he was, and allegedly waited outside the school door per surveillance cameras for 4 minutes, this is terrible. But still......he was under armed......

True and the sheriff said yesterday that they will now be carrying rifles.

 

[CARIIS]

Hate to reply to my own quote but now I’m reading other links calling this Security Guard an “Officer” and “Deputy”.

If he was, and allegedly waited outside the school door per surveillance cameras for 4 minutes, this is terrible. But still......he was under armed......

I believe he was a deputy sheriff cop policeman whatever they are called

I don't think the chief would be able to suspend someone in another division .

He decided to retire cause he gets his money.

And since then two more are in trouble linked earlier

That thing was so loud - dont blame people for not running in the Swat guys are dressed for that kind of machine gun.

But that is what they sign up for -- there are down sides to every vocation I suppose.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

Close gun show and person-to-person loopholes.

Universal background checks.

Universal buying age to 21 for all firearms.

Require liability insurance, just like with automobiles.

Require mandatory reporting of stolen firearms.

Improve/upgrade background check reporting process.

 

[EuTuCroquet?]

So they didn't take his hiring seriously how?

Maybe. He would already be on the other side of the door with the killer.

 

[Blef]

Did you even look at my link? There's huge difference in semis and autos. I'm not sure about your AK17 but if you're talking about an AK47, I can't walk into a store and buy one of those. It's a fully automatic firearm, they're not sold in gun shops. They're illegal, since 1986. It is not a semi automatic.

I didn't jump for joy in 2004 when the ban was lifted. I didn't even know it was lifted for several years. We just got our other semi about a year ago. I bought my spouse, a semi very similar to the one pictured "semi", below, for Christmas one year. It is a Ruger 44 Carbine 44 Mag Semi Auto Rifle. My motorcycling very well nearly killed me, and some folks thought I was awful for nearly losing my life, and almost taking myself away from my family.

AR15. I'm sorry, it was an AR15 that was used in Florida. Legally bought. Lethal to 17 people. And obviously something that someone in suburban Florida has to have to protect themselves. Own a gun, I'm not saying you shouldn't. But how can anyone say that owning this kind of weapon is justified? Are you guys in the States living in a war zone?

A motorbike is different. It's an obtuse argument. A vehicle is not designed solely to kill or maim. I'm a biker. The vast majority of bikers are killed or injured due to car drivers hitting them.

"The Gun Violence Archive, which defines a mass shooting as four or more people shot in one incident (not including the shooter), reported more than 14,000 people killed and over 29,000 injured in 2017 because of mass shootings. 14,000 people in 345 mass shootings in one year."

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/


​

 

[Tillicum]

So they didn't take his hiring seriously how?

?????