Halyna Hutchins Shot With Prop Gun - Alec Baldwin indicted & Hannah Gutierrez-Reed charged, 2021 #6

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I find it so odd that gun ownership is regulated by at least some regulations, but it's okay to rent out a gun.

And the rental gun can apparently be used by anyone that the renter wishes to hand it to.
It's very common in the movie and TV industry for firearms to be rented out. Long gone are the days of huge movie studios holding vast warehouses of props of every description.

Guns are commonly rented for TV and film purposes here in the UK and there are several companies that do this including renting pistols, machineguns and suchlike which are generally prohibited here. A friend of mine is mates with a guy who runs a company that does this and owns such things as heavy machine-guns and even has an Aero-Dillon mini-gun!

There is an exepmtion in the Firearms Act 1968 allowing for actors to handle firearms:

12Theatre and cinema.

(1)A person taking part in a theatrical performance or a rehearsal thereof, or in the production of a cinematograph film, may, without holding a certificafe, have a firearm in his possession during and for the purpose of the performance, rehearsal or production.

(2)Where the Defence Council is satisfied, on the application of a person in charge of a theatrical performance, a rehearsal of such a performance or the production of a cinematograph film, that [F1a prohibited weapon] is required for the purpose of the performance, rehearsal or production, [he] may under section 5 of this Act, if [he thinks] fit, not only authorise that person to have possession of [F1the weapon] but also authorise such other persons as he may select to have possession of it while taking part in the performance, rehearsal or production.


 
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From the link:



I suppose the prosecutors think they can work around the special prosecutor's ruling by getting a Grand Jury to bring charges. It was a special prosecutor who denied their bid to bring manslaughter charges last time. The gun used by Baldwin was shown to be a broken down piece of junk. An FBI agent destroyed the trigger mechanism.

The tragic incident was preserved on video and still photos. Baldwin's attorneys proved that the prosecutors can't charge him with breaking a law that wasn't on the books when the accidental shooting took place. The assistant director already pleaded "no contest" to unsafe handling of a firearm.

Is there an election coming up down there?
It absolutely was not a broken down piece of junk. It is a modern, well made replica of an old gun.

Yes, the FBI broke some parts but they said quite clearly that the gun was in proper working condition when they got it.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to why the fact that the FBI broke it is any sort of bar to it being used as evidence. They say quite clearly that it was in perfect, and safe, operating condition when they got it. Indeed, the very fact that the only way they could make it discharge without pressing the trigger was to hit the hammer so violently so as to smash the internal safety mechanisms makes an even stronger case that AB pulled the trigger!
 
The .45-caliber revolver was made by an Italian company that specializes in 19th century reproductions.

Not even an original gun.

An earlier FBI report on the agency’s analysis of the gun found that, as is common with firearms of that design, it could go off without pulling the trigger if force was applied to an uncocked hammer — such as by dropping the weapon.

The only way the testers could get it to fire was by striking the gun with a mallet while the hammer was down and resting on the cartridge, or by pulling the trigger while it was fully cocked. The gun eventually broke during testing.
This is correct. A note on the thing about these guns going off if dropped; yes, they can but it would require the hammer to be in its fully forward position with the firing pin at rest against the primer of the cartridge. That is not a safe way to carry these guns which is why there is the first "stand-off" notch to keep the hammer slightly off the cartridge.
 
As I'm in the UK rather than the US, could someone explain the situations around the necessity for Grand Juries and Special Prosecutors?

GJ: What is this? I am under the impression that a GJ convenes to asses whether there is sufficient evidence to bring the matter to trial. What is the point of this - isn't that the job of a prosecutor or a judge? Surely if the GJ decides that there is sufficient evidence for a trial they're pretty much saying "you're guilty, mate" so why not just have a trial from the start?

SP: What is a "Special Prosecutor" and why are they needed? Surely a prosecution is brought by the District Attorney" or some body or person similar to the Crown Prosecution Service here? The name Special Prosecutor, implies, to me at least, that the matter at hand is some fiendishly complicated set of circumstances or something involving national security issues or similar. This, however, is just a fairly straight forward criminal trial which, if it didn't involve a high profile person, no one would ever have heard about. If this were a couple of high school students making a movie for film class would they also need a special prosecutor and Grand Jury?
 
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As I'm in the UK rather than the US, could someone explain the situations around the necessity for Grand Juries and Special Prosecutors?

GJ: What is this? I am under the impression that a GJ convenes to asses whether there is sufficient evidence to bring the matter to trial. What is the point of this - isn't that the job of a prosecutor or a judge? Surely if the GJ decides that there is sufficient evidence for a trial they're pretty much saying "you're guilty, mate" so why not just have a trial from the start?

SP: What is a "Special Prosecutor" and why are they needed? Surely a prosecution is brought by the District Attorney" or some body or person similar to the Crown Prosecution Service here? The name Special Prosecutor, implies, to me at least, that the matter at hand is some fiendishly complicated set of circumstances or something involving national security issues or similar. This, however, is just a fairly straight forward criminal trial which, if it didn't involve a high profile person, no one would ever have heard about. If this were a couple of high school students making a movie for film class would they also need a special prosecutor and Grand Jury?

There are two ways to indict someone criminally in the United States. The Grand Jury is one of them. There's no way that our system of justice would work if prosecutors could just unilaterally decide to charge someone. It has to go before a judge. If a Grand Jury says that it thinks there's enough evidence to indict, the judge still has to approve it (cf. the Jon Benet case).

The other way is through an arrest warrant, signed by a judge after LE/Prosecution present sworn facts to the judge. This is the more common way.

Then, in each case, the defendant has the right to move to dismiss charges. Again, the judge has to weigh in (but now with facts presented by the defendant also on hand). Judge can move it on to trial, or dismiss it.

We simply do not allow the prosecution to arrest whoever they want.

Special Prosecutors are brought on for many different reasons, but the one I see the most is to make sure that some full time and competent prosecutor is bringing the case to trial. In states or counties with low populations (like Santa Fe), taking regular prosecutors off their jobs is often frowned upon by local residents. Santa Fe County has only 150,000 residents.

It is not a fairly straightforward criminal trial if the defendant is a multi-millionaire, like Alec Baldwin. Baldwin has very well paid and well known law firms attending to his various legal issues. That makes the case very different than one that's defended by the public defender's office (which is by far the more common situation).

If two high school students made a movie where someone got shot and died, I think it would get national attention as well. But they would be juveniles, which is a very different situation.

I think in this case, the SFC DA believes they need help in bringing the case to court, due to the over-papering and possibility of many motions being brought by the defense. It also means they anticipate no plea bargain.

You can't have a trial in the United States until both sides have presented each other with all the evidence. That can't even begin to happen until there's an arrest.

We do not arrest and try people on the same day without them having recourse to a substantial amount of time to prepare a defense. They are given a defense attorney (paid by the state) if they can't afford one. That person has to be found, assigned to the case, and then both sides go through discovery and share ALL the evidence BEFORE trial.

What you're suggesting (just arrest and try them immediately, upon the word of prosecution and judge) is precisely the system that the US Constitution prohibits.

Check out the Fifth Amendment (in the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution). It guarantees due process and provides specifically for Grand Juries (Federal Grand Juries). I think all 50 states have put the same language in their state constitutions - but not all states use Grand Juries for situations of this type. It's actually unusual (it's usually a petition for an arrest warrant). At any rate, if this does go to a (secret) Grand Jury, the judge assigned to the case has to accept their indictment, should they issue one.

I think it's generally believed that a GJ indictment is a stronger cause of action than an arrest affadavit proceeding. At any rate, the defendant still has the same rights to a defense, and the judge will see all of the material presented to the GJ.


IME.
 
It absolutely was not a broken down piece of junk. It is a modern, well made replica of an old gun.

Yes, the FBI broke some parts but they said quite clearly that the gun was in proper working condition when they got it.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to why the fact that the FBI broke it is any sort of bar to it being used as evidence. They say quite clearly that it was in perfect, and safe, operating condition when they got it. Indeed, the very fact that the only way they could make it discharge without pressing the trigger was to hit the hammer so violently so as to smash the internal safety mechanisms makes an even stronger case that AB pulled the trigger!

I believe the problem is that the defense has a right to examine the weapon with its own experts, if the weapon is to be put into evidence.
 
It absolutely was not a broken down piece of junk. It is a modern, well made replica of an old gun.

Yes, the FBI broke some parts but they said quite clearly that the gun was in proper working condition when they got it.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to why the fact that the FBI broke it is any sort of bar to it being used as evidence. They say quite clearly that it was in perfect, and safe, operating condition when they got it. Indeed, the very fact that the only way they could make it discharge without pressing the trigger was to hit the hammer so violently so as to smash the internal safety mechanisms makes an even stronger case that AB pulled the trigger!
I am not sure there will be a bar to the gun as evidence, but it will be raised. As 10ofRods indicated, the defense has a right to examine the gun, or have it examined by their own experts. That gun is now no longer in the same condition it was at the time of the shooting. The Prosecution can say its expert(s) said it was in fine working condition, but the Defense may say that such an expert opinion shouldn't be allowed since they didn't get a chance to examine the gun in its original condition.

10 of Rods explained the Grand Jury vs Information process. Tradition all indictments were by GJ and in the federal system it is stil that way. Several states as well. Most states allow indictment by Information, by the Prosecutor. Then a later finding of probable cause by the court in a preliminary hearing. Many states allow both, as does N. Mexico. But charging by Information is just far more easy, efficient, grand juries are cumbersome. But occasionally even in states that allow it a prosecutor will elect to use a grand jury. This is sometimes done for political reasons, ie the DA doesn't want to take full responsibility. "The Grand Jury indicted him, not me."

As for the special prosecutor, often is used if there is a conflict of interest or something is just beyond the local DA's ability. I think the move to have special prosecutor here was not appropriate. Especially since the DA had one appointed, but then really remained in control of the case originally. Despite AB's fame, this really isn't a difficult case. I fail to see why the DA can't handle it herself. The legal questions are not something outside her abilities. I think the DA has allowed the case to become more of a circus than it should have been. I am interested to hear what this new evidence is. But I just think this is a case that should have been wrapped up by now.
 
I am not sure there will be a bar to the gun as evidence, but it will be raised. As 10ofRods indicated, the defense has a right to examine the gun, or have it examined by their own experts. That gun is now no longer in the same condition it was at the time of the shooting. The Prosecution can say its expert(s) said it was in fine working condition, but the Defense may say that such an expert opinion shouldn't be allowed since they didn't get a chance to examine the gun in its original condition.

10 of Rods explained the Grand Jury vs Information process. Tradition all indictments were by GJ and in the federal system it is stil that way. Several states as well. Most states allow indictment by Information, by the Prosecutor. Then a later finding of probable cause by the court in a preliminary hearing. Many states allow both, as does N. Mexico. But charging by Information is just far more easy, efficient, grand juries are cumbersome. But occasionally even in states that allow it a prosecutor will elect to use a grand jury. This is sometimes done for political reasons, ie the DA doesn't want to take full responsibility. "The Grand Jury indicted him, not me."

As for the special prosecutor, often is used if there is a conflict of interest or something is just beyond the local DA's ability. I think the move to have special prosecutor here was not appropriate. Especially since the DA had one appointed, but then really remained in control of the case originally. Despite AB's fame, this really isn't a difficult case. I fail to see why the DA can't handle it herself. The legal questions are not something outside her abilities. I think the DA has allowed the case to become more of a circus than it should have been. I am interested to hear what this new evidence is. But I just think this is a case that should have been wrapped up by now.
Just piping in regarding Grand Juries and special prosecutors. It's complicated and it varies by jurisdiction. So if it's confusing to someone outside the USA, that's understandable! For reference, the first step is looking at whether charges are state or federal and for state cases, then look to the state for its rules.

jmo
 
Just piping in regarding Grand Juries and special prosecutors. It's complicated and it varies by jurisdiction. So if it's confusing to someone outside the USA, that's understandable! For reference, the first step is looking at whether charges are state or federal and for state cases, then look to the state for its rules.

jmo
Inthedetails, good point! For those outside the US, a big thing to understand is that these are charges brought by the State, not by the US federal government. By FAR, most crimes are state crimes, not federal.
 
Inthedetails, good point! For those outside the US, a big thing to understand is that these are charges brought by the State, not by the US federal government. By FAR, most crimes are state crimes, not federal.
Right, and each state has its own rules and procedures. Can't assume one state does it exactly the same as another. (I don't know about how New Mexico does it, so I defer to others who do.)

jmo
 
It absolutely was not a broken down piece of junk. It is a modern, well made replica of an old gun.

Yes, the FBI broke some parts but they said quite clearly that the gun was in proper working condition when they got it.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to why the fact that the FBI broke it is any sort of bar to it being used as evidence. They say quite clearly that it was in perfect, and safe, operating condition when they got it. Indeed, the very fact that the only way they could make it discharge without pressing the trigger was to hit the hammer so violently so as to smash the internal safety mechanisms makes an even stronger case that AB pulled the trigger!

The FBI may have claimed that the gun was in proper working order, but the prosecution's own filings indicate that there were modifications done to the hammer. And the Haag report described the gun as having a 'heavily fouled bore'. (While the condition of the bore by itself may not be directly relevant, it does speak to how the firearm was handled and maintained.)

If I'm reading Haag's report correctly, all of his tests were done with a brand-new replacement hammer, bolt and trigger. He does state that the original hammer would also have prevented an accidental firing. However, I have no doubt that AB's legal team will have their own experts who will claim that the gun was in poor condition and it could have mis-fired with its original components (which the FBI broke).

IMO, this case may very well come down to dueling experts and what they can convince a jury about the condition of the gun.
 
It absolutely was not a broken down piece of junk. It is a modern, well made replica of an old gun.

Yes, the FBI broke some parts but they said quite clearly that the gun was in proper working condition when they got it.

I'm still a bit puzzled as to why the fact that the FBI broke it is any sort of bar to it being used as evidence. They say quite clearly that it was in perfect, and safe, operating condition when they got it. Indeed, the very fact that the only way they could make it discharge without pressing the trigger was to hit the hammer so violently so as to smash the internal safety mechanisms makes an even stronger case that AB pulled the trigger!


The defense will have a case that there is documented statements that the gun misfired on set before by another person. This goes against their claim that it was in perfect working order.

The defense will have no way to test and prove their theory that it wasn’t in good working order - and both sides in court always have the right to hire their own expert to refute the other’s claims.
 
By the way, I don't think the report of the New Mexico Occupational Health and Safety Bureau (OHSB) has been posted here.


This is more about the overall lack of safety on set than it is about the specific actions that HGR and AB took. Still, IMO it's a damning report, especially towards the line producers, Gabrielle Pickle and
Row Walters, and the 1st AD & Safety Coordinator, Dave Halls.
 
The FBI may have claimed that the gun was in proper working order, but the prosecution's own filings indicate that there were modifications done to the hammer. And the Haag report described the gun as having a 'heavily fouled bore'. (While the condition of the bore by itself may not be directly relevant, it does speak to how the firearm was handled and maintained.)

If I'm reading Haag's report correctly, all of his tests were done with a brand-new replacement hammer, bolt and trigger. He does state that the original hammer would also have prevented an accidental firing. However, I have no doubt that AB's legal team will have their own experts who will claim that the gun was in poor condition and it could have mis-fired with its original components (which the FBI broke).

IMO, this case may very well come down to dueling experts and what they can convince a jury about the condition of the gun.
I cannot recall reading that. Do you have a source for it? The only thing I seem to recall as regards "modifications" was in relation the the second testers having to use parts from another gun after the FBI broke it in their testing. That's not a modification, though, it's replacement of parts.

I have to say that I really don't understand their comments about the fouled bore and the fact that fouling would be responsible for the apparent lack of rifling imprint on the bullet. I cannot think how that could come about.
 
The defense will have a case that there is documented statements that the gun misfired on set before by another person. This goes against their claim that it was in perfect working order.

The defense will have no way to test and prove their theory that it wasn’t in good working order - and both sides in court always have the right to hire their own expert to refute the other’s claims.
I think you are getting mixed up in the terminology here - a mis-fire is a failure to fire. What I think you mean is an accidental/negligent discharge?

That may or may not have happened with this gun but the defence still needs to show how it could have happened. Lets not forget that the FBI had to physically break the gun in order to get it to discharge without the trigger being depressed. If it already had a fault allowing it to do that then it must be easily identifiable. This is a very simple piece of engineering, after all, and the original parts are still with it.

Yes, you're right, the defence has every right, indeed duty, to test the veracity of the evidence. They still can as the gun and it's parts are available to them. Their problem, as I see it, is this; the defence still needs to present a plausible explanation as to how the gun unintentionally fired. It needs to show exactly what was defective about the gun which allowed it to discharge without the person holding it needing to press the trigger - it must show how that hammer bypassed at least three safety systems from it's full-*advertiser censored* position in order to ignite the cartridge in the chamber.

In order to do that they are going to have to come up with some extremely novel and unusual explanation; there are probably hundreds of videos and articles out there by now explaining how these guns work and how exceptionally unlikely it is that these things go off without pressure on the trigger. I am not aware of a single article, video or expert opinion which offers any plausible scenario in which AB's version of events (that it discharged without pressure on the trigger) could be correct. If anyone has any source to a credible differing opinion I'd be extremely interested to see it.

I don't have a dog in this fight other than wanting to promote the vales of safe firearms use. Honestly, if I could see any way in which this gun could have discharged without the trigger being pressed I'd be the first to shout up.

Moving on and looking at the bigger picture, even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that AB is correct and it did discharge without him pressing the trigger, then that does not absolve him of responsibility in this sorry affair. Accidents with firearms (indeed most things) never happen in a vacuum, they are always a consequence of a chain of events or actions which if one link is broken the accident doesn't take place. He pointed a firearm at someone, that firearm discharged and killed someone and severely wounded another person. Pointing it at someone was unnecessary; he didn't satisfy himself that the gun was unloaded; it was unnecessary to even use a real firearm! These are contraventions of the most basic principles of safe gun handling. The most basic one is not pointing guns at people. That alone makes it extremely unlikely that someone is going to get shot.
 
So, with reference to the potential "modification" to the gun, I found this:


New Mexico prosecutors are investigating whether the gun Alec Baldwin was handling when it went off and killed “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins might have been intentionally modified.

The modification appears to be related to the notches on the internal portion of the hammer for full *advertiser censored*, half *advertiser censored* and quarter *advertiser censored* positions,” prosecutors wrote in court documents filed this week, which asked the judge to authorize transferring the .45 Long Colt revolver, ammunition and other evidence collected from the film set to a ballistics expert for forensic testing. “It appears that these notches may have been partially removed or ground down so that they are less prominent.


Yes, in theory those notches could have been ground down but this poses a couple of questions. Firstly; why? There is literally no reason to do this at all. The sole exception might be to re-work the face of the full-*advertiser censored* notch in order to create a lighter trigger pull. Even if you mucked that up and ended up with a situation where the hammer could slip off that notch then it would be caught by the half-*advertiser censored* notch and even if that failed to arrest it's travel the stand-off/safety notch would catch it as this is a much more severe notch than all the rest. You'd never have any reason to modify these notches as they play no part in the smooth operation or the "shoot'ability" of the gun.

Secondly, this gun has now been assessed by a second expert who has not, from my recollection, made any reference to the hammer notches possibly having been altered.

Edit:

The half-*advertiser censored* and quarter-*advertiser censored* positions on the original hammer and the substitute hammer were intact and fully capable of fulfilling their intended purposes of providing a loading position and safety position for the hammer. They also provide a means of capturing the retracted hammer in situations where there is a loss of control (grasp) of the EXHIBIT B e Page 25 Illustrated Report of L. Haag hammer during the manual retraction process before reaching the fully cocked position or during a failed attempt to lower a previously cocked hammer.


Clearly there has been no modification or alteration to these notches.
 
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So, with reference to the potential "modification" to the gun, I found this:


New Mexico prosecutors are investigating whether the gun Alec Baldwin was handling when it went off and killed “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins might have been intentionally modified.

The modification appears to be related to the notches on the internal portion of the hammer for full *advertiser censored*, half *advertiser censored* and quarter *advertiser censored* positions,” prosecutors wrote in court documents filed this week, which asked the judge to authorize transferring the .45 Long Colt revolver, ammunition and other evidence collected from the film set to a ballistics expert for forensic testing. “It appears that these notches may have been partially removed or ground down so that they are less prominent.


Yes, in theory those notches could have been ground down but this poses a couple of questions. Firstly; why? There is literally no reason to do this at all. The sole exception might be to re-work the face of the full-*advertiser censored* notch in order to create a lighter trigger pull. Even if you mucked that up and ended up with a situation where the hammer could slip off that notch then it would be caught by the half-*advertiser censored* notch and even if that failed to arrest it's travel the stand-off/safety notch would catch it as this is a much more severe notch than all the rest. You'd never have any reason to modify these notches as they play no part in the smooth operation or the "shoot'ability" of the gun.

Secondly, this gun has now been assessed by a second expert who has not, from my recollection, made any reference to the hammer notches possibly having been altered.
Yes, that's the modification I'm referring to. This comes from a filing by the prosecution, so I assume that it's something that actually exists, not a figment of some defense expert's imagination.

As you say, it's not mentioned in the Haag report. But the condition of the original pieces that had to be replaced is not really mentioned in the report at all. Which is kind of interesting in itself.

We'll probably have to wait until trial to get a better idea of what the gun's condition was actually like.

Accidental discharge how? The FBI couldn't make it do it and had to break it in order that it did.
There were multiple accidental firings on set prior to the shooting, including one of a .45 caliber revolver that was loaded with a blank. I don't think it's ever been confirmed if this was the same gun that later killed Halyna or if it was of the same design.

As for the FBI testing, I would say it was less than adequate. Which is why the gun had to be sent off a second time for a more thorough examination.
 
From my memory, there were three versions of a Colt .45 on set (and all three were on the cart on the day of Halyna's death). The first is the one that Alec used. The second was an even older gun that had been made inoperable so that it could function as a safe prop - it had the barrel plugged, but it had the ability to hold dummies and look like a gunslinger's weapon in close-ups, etc (this is traditional for prop guns, btw - to have more than one of the same-appearing gun for different uses). The third was made of rubber and would not have been so photogenic, but in long shots where there's supposed to be a lot of shooting, it would provide a safe alternative.

They were not shooting the scene where Alec actually has to shoot, he was "practicing" for that scene (according to the AA) and IMO, Asst Director DH ought not to have chosen the operable gun to give to Alec for this practice. Alec should also have known the differences and requested the safest alternative (that's why those non working guns were there).

AFAIK, they only rented one operable Colt .45 (from SK). I do think a thorough reading of the AA would give the answer as to whether there were other Colts on the set. Naturally, the one sent to the FBI is the one that was taken from the Church. I do not believe LE got confused about which gun had just been used in this tragedy.

IMO.
 
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