Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[bessie]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11045071

 

[makista]

I lived in Savannah during the time when there was a lot of hoo-hah about "The Book," so I remember the Bird Girl, but I don't remember the story behind her. Can you explain your reference, please?

Seems that I do recall reading that this statue had to be moved out of Bonaventure because of the tourist traffic and worries of vandalism and damage.

It's just symbolic is all. * The bird girl hold two bird feeders in both of her hands in a cemetery with her head tilted to the left* I didn't want to believe the birds/vultures got to Hannah, but they did. I don't think they are going to find any toxicology on Hannah. I think any assistance as far as ideas will help. ( Finding phone, finding DNA somewhere, maps.. something..etc)

 

[klily444]

There's nothing to say that she was not alive, captive in the abandoned property, until Sept 29.
Is that what you meant to say?

I had never considered that before, but given that there are two unattended houses, and if Jesse was not at work the next day, Hannah may have been alive for more than a day. She wouldn't have been alive after the man with dreads was identified on video as having honed in on Hannah and accosting her when she was lost. Wasn't the car/apt search warrant within a week, so I doubt that Hannah was alive two weeks later.

What day did he make a run for Texas, and what day were the vultures on sight? The smell of death is powerful, so I'm thinking that vultures would have been at her body within 6 hours.

Was Jesse scheduled to work on September 14 and he called it in, or he wasn't scheduled to word that day? Russell Williams spent many hours with his victims before he murdered them. He took victims from one location to another location as he continued to assault them. He left bodies in a third location.

He missed football team meeting the next morning, where he was a volunteer assistant coach. The WS member who had a son on the football team said that it is not a big deal whether he showed up or not. I have never heard that he called off work or that he was scheduled to work that day.

JMO, she was killed on the 13th.

 

[makista]

There's nothing to say that she was not alive, captive in the abandoned property, until Sept 29.
Is that what you meant to say?

I had never considered that before, but given that there are two unattended houses, and if Jesse was not at work the next day, Hannah may have been alive for more than a day. She wouldn't have been alive after the man with dreads was identified on video as having honed in on Hannah and accosting her when she was lost. Wasn't the car/apt search warrant within a week, so I doubt that Hannah was alive two weeks later.

What day did he make a run for Texas, and what day were the vultures on sight? The smell of death is powerful, so I'm thinking that vultures would have been at her body within 6 hours.

Was Jesse scheduled to work on September 14 and he called it in, or he wasn't scheduled to word that day? Russell Williams spent many hours with his victims before he murdered them. He took victims from one location to another location as he continued to assault them. He left bodies in a third location.

BBM

Yep, I think you're on to something. Vultures don't mess around for days. It's a matter of hours with them. I will have to think about JM whereabouts ( Need sleep) and get back tomorrow. We've got to figure this out. By the way-- JM is sexual predator. I can see that in his face.

 

[wary]

I don't have a link to the body farm story that told about the vultures, but it's been linked here numerous times. If I remember rightly, the vultures only arrived after many days. (37 days?) My impression was that it was more or less random--that it just took that long, in that particular case, for the vultures to find the body. In another case, it might be less, or more....

 

[zapped]

It is statistically shown, however, that killers DO come from abusive homes, broken homes, addicted homes.
So, nurture IS very relevant in this.
I know as a parent it is hard to look and see that we did in fact contribute to the F'ed up state of our children, but with parenthood comes responsibility, and taking a good, hard look at one's parenting can and WILL change the lives of our children. Human was objectively correct in these statements.

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe...just maybe.... that the abuse, the addictions, the broken homes .....are a symptom rather than the cause?

There are some people in life who who are just broken and no amount of love, or sympathy or understanding is ever going to fix them.

 

[jbowman55]

There's nothing to say that she was not alive, captive in the abandoned property, until Sept 29.
Is that what you meant to say?

I had never considered that before, but given that there are two unattended houses, and if Jesse was not at work the next day, Hannah may have been alive for more than a day. She wouldn't have been alive after the man with dreads was identified on video as having honed in on Hannah and accosting her when she was lost. Wasn't the car/apt search warrant within a week, so I doubt that Hannah was alive two weeks later.

What day did he make a run for Texas, and what day were the vultures on sight? The smell of death is powerful, so I'm thinking that vultures would have been at her body within 6 hours.

Was Jesse scheduled to work on September 14 and he called it in, or he wasn't scheduled to word that day? Russell Williams spent many hours with his victims before he murdered them. He took victims from one location to another location as he continued to assault them. He left bodies in a third location.

BBM

Curiouser and curiouser.

Timeline, to the best of my recollection. Is this useful?

9-13 1:45 am Hannah last seen alive at Tempo with JM

9-13 JM misses morning football meeting at The Covenant School

week of 9-13 to 9-19 Coworkers at UVa Medical Center observe that JM is morose and solitary

9-19 (late evening) CPD executes a search warrant on JM's car and impounds the car, finds evidence, gets additional search warrants

9-20 (midnight to early morning) CPD executes search warrants on JM's apartment and cell phone, seize phone and several bags of evidence, news reports show officers carrying out bags of evidence during daylight hours

9-20 (approx 3:30 pm) JM appears at CPD asking for an attorney, speaks with Camblos, leaves CPD without speaking to police, realizes he is still being followed by LE, drives recklessly and LE has to let him get away

9-20 CPD files two reckless driving charges against JM

9-20 (evening) or 9-21 JM leaves Virginia on his way to Texas

9-22 CPD searches JM's apartment for a second time and leaves with additional evidence items

9-23 CPD files charges of Abduction with Intent to Defile against JM

9-23 JM calls family member from Louisiana using a borrowed cell phone

9-24 JM is spotted by "Karen" on a beach in Gilchrist, TX and is arrested about 3:30 pm

9-25 JM appears before a Galveston Co judge via video link, waives right to extradition hearing, is charged with being a Fugitive from justice and with giving false information to a police officer

9-26 JM is returned to Virginia by FBI agents, to the custody of CPD

9-29 VSP announces a forensic link between JM and the death of Morgan Harrington

9-30 OL Rd area resident observes buzzards on roof and in trees at OL Rd property

10-6 Second OL Rd area resident observes buzzards at OL Rd property

10-17 Memorial service at Copeley Rd Bridge to honor 5th anniversary of Morgan Harrington's disappearance

10-18 Remains found off Old Lynchburg Rd in North Garden, VA

10-18 Albemarle Co Police close Old Lynchburg Rd between Red Hill Rd and Plank Rd, which includes Walnut Creek Park

10-20 JM is charged with attempted capital murder, abduction with intent to defile, and sexual assault in Fairfax

10-24 Albemarle Co Police announce that remains are identified as Hannah Graham

10-24 Old Lynchburg Rd. is reopened to traffic

 

[wary]

I don't have a link to the body farm story that told about the vultures, but it's been linked here numerous times. If I remember rightly, the vultures only arrived after many days. (37 days?) My impression was that it was more or less random--that it just took that long, in that particular case, for the vultures to find the body. In another case, it might be less, or more....

 

[themom]

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe...just maybe.... that the abuse, the addictions, the broken homes .....are a symptom rather than the cause?

There are some people in life who who are just broken and no amount of love, or sympathy or understanding is ever going to ever fix them.

No, I never looked at it that way. Are you saying a child is abused because they are mentally ill or genetically evil?
Or that parents divorce or do drugs bc their child is genetically evil?

Whaaaa???? This can't be what you're saying. Please explain!

I personally do think adults are mostly unfixable (thank goodness I'm not a therapist with that attitude!), so at the adult level, the problems (abuse, addiction, etc) surely are symptoms of the mental issues.
But I believe the spiral into becoming an adult with these problems could have been prevented or dealt with when said human was a child. JMO

For example with JM, had his parents recognized signs of mistreatment towards others at a young age and gotten him therapy or medication, perhaps it wouldn't have escalated to rape. Which then escalated to murder.

If he was in fact born a murderer, signs would have been there from early on, and the parents are responsible for seeing this and getting their child help (therapy, medication, etc) to keep the greater population safe from their tendencies.

If said child grows and refuses care, it should be up to the parent to figure something out, even if it is (worst case scenerio) going to the LE to disclose his mental health history once suspected of possibly abducting another human.

 

[2Hope4]

I'm going back to my KISS theory. Keep it simple stupid. I don't think there was lots of preplanning, etc. I think JLM was a predator that was on the prowl. When his urges hit, he sees a victim, he strikes. From what little we know, both Hanna and Morgan were within his comfort zone. Areas he knew, areas he probably fished, or partied, or in some way was intimate with the areas. I think he probably took both girls to the area they were found in. I don't think he was driving around with a deceased body in his vehicle. Sadly I think he spent time with each one. At that time of night, and in seclusion, he had time to do whatever he wanted, for however long he wanted.

I don't know how common it is, but I wonder if whiskey ever had any effect on his ability to get an erection. I just remember dating a guy once that had that problem.

As to where he left both bodies, and hunting season, well, both were private property. Hannah appears to have been close enough to the road, that shooting a deer would have been against the law. Deer are also NOT to be run by dogs. Sadly many deer are hit by cars, or shot, but don't die immediately, and are able to run in to the woods, or a field. Typically doesn't even faze most people during hunting season to see buzzards. Though I will say, I have NEVER seen more than 5 or 6 flying in the area, or on the ground. I know cities are having a problem with them roosting, but I honestly have lived in the country 40 plus years, and never seen as many as the man that saw roosting on the roof, and in the tree where Hannah was found. Even if a dead horse, cow, or deer, I just haven't seen it.

I have seen a foal, and a calf that were attacked by buzzards while alive! YES without the smell of death! They must smell blood as well.

I keep thinking about how it was a pure miracle either of girl was ever found. Just amazing. If only all could be brought home!!

 

[otto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1PJ9mF2H2Q

Falling Rain

 

[makista]

I don't have a link to the body farm story that told about the vultures, but it's been linked here numerous times. If I remember rightly, the vultures only arrived after many days. (37 days?) My impression was that it was more or less random--that it just took that long, in that particular case, for the vultures to find the body. In another case, it might be less, or more....

That place is so rural, vultures live there. (They live here in AR too and the wing span is 6 feet, mostly road kill) Anyway-- The couple that called in the smell, was only a couple of days before the sightings of birds.

My husband started smelling things two days ago and saw vultures. And yesterday he was like 'Lori it really smells bad outside, lets shut the windows,'” said Hamilton.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26822378/neighbors-react-to-human-remains-believed-to-be-hannah-graham

That was posted October 18th and updated on the 19th of October, and the couple said the smell was bad a couple of days before that, so that puts it on the 16h or late 17th of October.. She went missing on Sept 13th.

 

[2Hope4]

He missed football team meeting the next morning, where he was a volunteer assistant coach. The WS member who had a son on the football team said that it is not a big deal whether he showed up or not. I have never heard that he called off work or that he was scheduled to work that day.

JMO, she was killed on the 13th.

I was just going to ask if something had been released about his work schedule. IIRC, the only thing we heard was that he was eating alone at lunch at work after Hannah disappeared, but I don't recall anything about him not going to work.

 

[jbowman55]

That place is so rural, vultures live there. (They live here in AR too and the wing span is 6 feet, mostly road kill) Anyway-- The couple that called in the smell, was only a couple of days before the sightings of birds.

My husband started smelling things two days ago and saw vultures. And yesterday he was like 'Lori it really smells bad outside, lets shut the windows,'” said Hamilton.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26822378/neighbors-react-to-human-remains-believed-to-be-hannah-graham

That was posted October 18th and updated on the 19th of October, and the couple said the smell was bad a couple of days before that, so that puts it on the 16h or late 17th of October.. She went missing on Sept 13th.

JM has been in custody since about 3:30 pm on Sept 24.

 

[zapped]

Though I doubt it will ever be proven, unless JM comes clean about it, my guess too, is that he put something in her drink to make her woozier. He had the opportunity, and I can't see any other reason why he'd take that detour, spend that money when he had a "hot one" in his clutches. He would have wanted his victim less able to make trouble for him. But even if LE should find any such drugs in JM's possession, proving he gave it to Hannah doesn't seem possible to me. Enought that they can prove that they took her to that abandoned locale and killed her.

There are plenty of prescription drugs that are not considered date rape drugs that intensify the effect of alcohol. Most have a warning saying do not mix with alcohol.

I saw it plenty of times during my 25 years as a bartender. Someone would come in dead sober and after one or two beers would be incredibly drunk. Ive even had managers ask me why I served them and Ive had to assure them they appeared completely sober upon arrival.

One lady walked in perfectly fine, had one glass of wine and ended up reaching into someones plate of cheese fries and throwing them across the bar at the man in front of her for no apparent reason at all......all from one glass of wine.

Plenty of people abuse prescription drugs and see them as a cheap way of getting drunk, fast.

In JLMs case, he may have seen it as more than that. I wonder if LE has interviewed his roommates and family and friends to see if there are any prescription drugs JLM had easy access to and could have used that night?

 

[Ghostwheel]

I don't have a link to the body farm story that told about the vultures, but it's been linked here numerous times. If I remember rightly, the vultures only arrived after many days. (37 days?) My impression was that it was more or less random--that it just took that long, in that particular case, for the vultures to find the body. In another case, it might be less, or more....

Yes, that is true. One link to one story here: http://news.yahoo.com/texas-vulture-study-upends-forensics-142318853.html

In addition, Black Vultures aren't that good at sniffing out food, so that could account for delays depending on what type of vulture is feeding.
http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/black_vulture/lifehistory

 

[FindHG]

more...

US police confirm human remains are UK-born student Hannah Graham
from across the pond 25 October 2014 at 11:13am
http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/st...an-remains-are-uk-born-student-hannah-graham/

 

[zapped]

I agree. Just clarifying that not all SKs have a linear rate of progression.

He may have been quiet while he had a girlfriend. John List killed his wife, mother and children in 1971 and was finally caught in Richmond Va in 1989. He had been married for 4 years at the time

All Ive heard about JLMs girlfriend is that he recently broke up with her and the reason given his grandmother was that she wasnt Christian enough.

Id be interested to know how long they dated as it could figure into his profile.

 

[otto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnP72uUt_pU

 

[makista]

JM has been in custody since about 3:30 pm on Sept 24.

There might be a second person to this.. maybe that's why they are looking for links to Randy Taylor (and yes, I know he is in prison) I just find it odd that she was out there for a month amongst active wildlife ( coyotes for number one) and all the sudden a month later the smell and the birds. There is a long time in between that period. And yes, my area did get a lot of rain ( flash flooding) and it lasted for a week. We have black bears here and are pretty use to being considered rural.