Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[ILOKAL]

Yep. Tail lights are very visible at night, at dawn and twilight. He may have taken precautions on that dinky car, like disconnect the lights, but he doesn't strike me as high functioning on fine motor skills, more of brute force type, and driving without tails would mark his car to police and others. So I'm guessing that he parked, stopped some place around there where the chances of him being seen during those hours were slim, and walked along easy paths, to serve his needs, as they may have been, to where the remains were found. It was stated by a neighbor to Hawes Spencer, if I recall correctly, that 'he knew where to go.' So, would any one who knew him, but may have not of known him to be a rapist and a murder, know where may have liked to go to dry out, around there? If anybody does, hope they tell?

When looking at OLR there is a large curve on each side of the area where the remains were found. Any cars driving on the straight-away from either direction wouldn't see his tail lights at that time. I don't know if that was considered when he chose the spot.

 

[ThinkHard]

Searching I found that children under 14 may be an exception.

However. http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/files/article/chapter5.pdf

Was Hannah a naturalized citizen?

eta: probably not; you have to be 18 or older

:gaah: eta again: if her parents were naturalized before her 18th birthday then she is automatically a citizen.



http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents

Is her dad English? Or just her mom?

 

[ILOKAL]

I agree with you that he had to know the area, at least in a general,sense, where the quiet roads are, stuff like that. Come to think of it, I grew up in a spread out area, heavily wooded, not rural but rural parts. In high school I knew all the side roads, back roads, the roads few people traveled, or cops rarely went...why? Teenage stuff...woods parties, parking spots, spots to go smoke marijuana. If JLM grew up around here, its possible he could have been familiar with the area for similar reasons.

Also I just wanted to point out that where HG was found it wasn't really abandoned property. It just wasnt currently being occupied. It was owned, on the market for a bit even, and was trying to be rented. To me abandon building is like one that's run down, and no one claims, or is caring for. This was t me a propert, without current residence. Anyway the simple semantics, change to me, what JLM would have known about that location, and perhaps more importantly why he would have known about that location. Its not like he knew of an old, long since abandon property no one goes too. This house was different then that. He would have specifically have to have known, that no one was CURRENTLY living there. It strikes me that it simply wouldn't have been enough to have seen the house listed on rental, or on a for sale sight, and know it wasn't being occupied. Because plenty of places for sale or rent still have current tenants. Perhaps he visited with the landlord and knew no one was there? I dunno that seems also too premeditated for this guy. I'm not convinced he was a planner, beyond strike when there was an opportunity, and he had a "hunger" (which seems stronger in the fall btw). More likely I'd be willing to bet he had a conversation in the days and weeks before at some point about that very house, and someone mentioned they were trying to rent it, but no one was living there, in a casual conversation way. Then when he had HG and started driving, he thought of that place.

I agree completely, ThinkHard. The house went off the For Sale market in July 2013. Even the landscaper who saw the vultures and called in the tip thought perhaps someone might be living there since the sign was no longer up. So yes, the BIG question is, how did JLM know the property was vacant at the time? Someone told him!

 

[ThinkHard]

When looking at OLR there is a large curve on each side of the area where the remains were found. Any cars driving on the straight-away from either direction wouldn't see his tail lights at that time. I don't know if that was considered when he chose the spot.

Is it possible he didn't park in the driveway....and used Walnut Park Access roads instead....also in the dark is it possible he wasn't aware of how close to a house he was? Assuming if he had gotten to that spot through the park.

Morgan's remains were in a spot that would have been tough to drive right too, meaning she would have had to have been carried...JLM is a big guy, if he could have carried Morgan, he could have carried HG too. So maybe it was the park he entered and chose...not neccasrily that house?

 

[Emaa]

Is her dad English? Or just her mom?

Both I think. They moved here when she was 5.

Would it have been on her passport?

Could LE have found prints on a personal item of hers and used it to compare to items found in his apt or car? (although it could be argued that LE couldn't prove they were her prints)

 

[ILOKAL]

Is it possible he didn't park in the driveway....and used Walnut Park Access roads instead....also in the dark is it possible he wasn't aware of how close to a house he was? Assuming if he had gotten to that spot through the park.

Morgan's remains were in a spot that would have been tough to drive right too, meaning she would have had to have been carried...JLM is a big guy, if he could have carried Morgan, he could have carried HG too. So maybe it was the park he entered and chose...not neccasrily that house?

Actually, it clearly appears as though the area where the remains were found is closest to either driveway on the property than any other access would allow. It has also been said that there is no view of that property from any other of the "nearby" houses so he would feel pretty comfortable, it seems. We also don't know where the assault took place. Inside one of the houses? Perhaps, but the owner just lives a few blocks down (on Plank Rd) and would have, presumably, checked the property during the 35 days Hannah was missing, as owners often do. It makes more sense that the assault took place elsewhere. He might have assaulted her in the car, behind the house on OLR. Maybe she rejected his advances and he killed her on the spot, dragged her out of the car and left her in the dry creek bed. We really don't know if a sexual assault actually took place and we may never know.

ETA: The dry creek bed was right behind the house so carrying Hannah or dragging her would have been easy for JLM.

 

[damien]

Tempos story is sketchy I think someone needs to get to the bottom of that one if I were the parents of that girl I would be contacting a lawyer about it

 

[jbowman55]

I agree completely, ThinkHard. The house went off the For Sale market in July 2013. Even the landscaper who saw the vultures and called in the tip thought perhaps someone might be living there since the sign was no longer up. So yes, the BIG question is, how did JLM know the property was vacant at the time? Someone told him!

Imo, it wouldn't be difficult for him to realize the house(s) were vacant if he drove down OL Rd often. I have a long route to drive to work every day, down roads that are similar to OL Rd, and I can always tell when houses are vacant, even if there are curtains in the windows, which there do appear to be at 3193. A vacant house just looks different from an occupied house - there's nothing out in the yard, there are never any cars around, you never see anything change. After a few days of being vacant, it's easy to tell. I think he would have known just from seeing, over time.

And dunno if this has been everyone's point in talking about the "For Sale" sign, but JM could have knocked that thing over himself, so his spot wouldn't be disturbed.

Also, y'all don't forget that gate that's down the road a bit. It looks like there's a wide, clear path on the other side of that gate. If he could carry Morgan to where she was found, he could have hidden his car somewhere and carried Hannah down that path. Moving through the trees, he could be out of sight of everyone, and only exposed for long enough to get across the road. For example...

 

[ZsaZsa]

I was actually replying to someone's comment regarding if she would have finger prints done when she moved here from England.

Not wether kids are ever finger printed in general or not. (As in safety programs that encourage parents to get stuff like that on file).

I was only saying I doubted her moving here from England would have yielded finger prints, even if they take them from immigrating adults, as she was only a child.

When you apply for a resident Visa, you have an interview at the American Embassy in London- Immigration dept fingerprints the adults,but not the children...

 

[ZsaZsa]

Is her dad English? Or just her mom?

They are all English- the British Embassy in Washington was notified that she was missing. There are statements in the UK press
that they always issue, about offering help to her family etc..

 

[SoALJohn]

Imo, it wouldn't be difficult for him to realize the house(s) were vacant if he drove down OL Rd often. I have a long route to drive to work every day, down roads that are similar to OL Rd, and I can always tell when houses are vacant, even if there are curtains in the windows, which there do appear to be at 3193. A vacant house just looks different from an occupied house - there's nothing out in the yard, there are never any cars around, you never see anything change. After a few days of being vacant, it's easy to tell. I think he would have known just from seeing, over time.

I agree. I know the houses along my daily route that are vacant and I can only imagine that he would have reason to "research" such things. I do not beleive for a minute that (provided he did these crimes) he did not have several places picked out at any given time that would work. This may be a stretch to argue, but...you go fishing, you carry extra tackle and bait, you go camping, you carry dry clothes and enough food, you have a tendency to commit crimes like these, you have hiding spots picked out at any given time. It just seems logical to me that one typically plans ahead for advercity. Only my opinion of course.

 

[ILOKAL]

Imo, it wouldn't be difficult for him to realize the house(s) were vacant if he drove down OL Rd often. I have a long route to drive to work every day, down roads that are similar to OL Rd, and I can always tell when houses are vacant, even if there are curtains in the windows, which there do appear to be at 3193. A vacant house just looks different from an occupied house - there's nothing out in the yard, there are never any cars around, you never see anything change. After a few days of being vacant, it's easy to tell. I think he would have known just from seeing, over time.

And dunno if this has been everyone's point in talking about the "For Sale" sign, but JM could have knocked that thing over himself, so his spot wouldn't be disturbed.

Also, y'all don't forget that gate that's down the road a bit. It looks like there's a wide, clear path on the other side of that gate. If he could carry Morgan to where she was found, he could have hidden his car somewhere and carried Hannah down that path. Moving through the trees, he could be out of sight of everyone, and only exposed for long enough to get across the road. For example...

Presumably there WAS no For Sale sign as the listing had ended two months prior. And yes, he could have carried Hannah from a variety of paths in the area, but she would have had to be unconscious or dead. He certainly wouldn't have carried her screaming and fighting, I don't think. JMO, of course. So where do we think he assaulted her, caused her to lose consciousness, or killed her, if not in the car?

 

[jbowman55]

Presumably there WAS no For Sale sign as the listing had ended two months prior. And yes, he could have carried Hannah from a variety of paths in the area, but she would have had to be unconscious or dead. He certainly wouldn't have carried her screaming and fighting, I don't think. JMO, of course. So where do we think he assaulted her, caused her to lose consciousness, or killed her, if not in the car?

Walnut Creek Park. Jmo.

 

[strawb93]

Actually, it clearly appears as though the area where the remains were found is closest to either driveway on the property than any other access would allow. It has also been said that there is no view of that property from any other of the "nearby" houses so he would feel pretty comfortable, it seems. We also don't know where the assault took place. Inside one of the houses? Perhaps, but the owner just lives a few blocks down (on Plank Rd) and would have, presumably, checked the property during the 35 days Hannah was missing, as owners often do. It makes more sense that the assault took place elsewhere. He might have assaulted her in the car, behind the house on OLR. Maybe she rejected his advances and he killed her on the spot, dragged her out of the car and left her in the dry creek bed. We really don't know if a sexual assault actually took place and we may never know.

ETA: The dry creek bed was right behind the house so carrying Hannah or dragging her would have been easy for JLM.

I saw pics on here (but can't remember which thread so can't link) of the place near the entrance to WCP that LE had first been based, even when the remains were found at 3193.

When I was looking at that area on google maps it seemed like there was a car par in that bit, sorry if I am way off, I'm in the UK so don't know the area at all.

Because of the way the tree cover is, I instantly wondered if that wasn't a regular lovers lane type place, and maybe the assault could have taken place there, where a couple in a car would be less out of place than on a driveway of an abandoned house. And then he just went on up to the house when he was going to kill her.

Would a cadaver dog pick up any scent if the body had only been very very recently deceased, like say in the first 20 minutes?

I hope this link works.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.9350892,-78.5932051,112m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[ILOKAL]

I saw pics on here (but can't remember which thread so can't link) of the place near the entrance to WCP that LE had first been based, even when the remains were found at 3193.

When I was looking at that area on google maps it seemed like there was a car par in that bit, sorry if I am way off, I'm in the UK so don't know the area at all.

Because of the way the tree cover is, I instantly wondered if that wasn't a regular lovers lane type place, and maybe the assault could have taken place there, where a couple in a car would be less out of place than on a driveway of an abandoned house. And then he just went on up to the house when he was going to kill her.

Would a cadaver dog pick up any scent if the body had only been very very recently deceased, like say in the first 20 minutes?

I hope this link works.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.9350892,-78.5932051,112m/data=!3m1!1e3

If that scenario is correct, then where did he kill her? Did he also assault her in the park if this was a "Lovers' Lane" without fear of the assault being heard?

 

[FindHG]

Walnut Creek Park. Jmo.

Kept looking for where he may have gone into the park with the least chance of anyone seeing his tail lights, below are a couple of guesses. There's a bend on OL Rd, that's pretty isolated, that I think locals with knowledge and context could perhaps consider if it could've worked for him?

There's this marker, and then two clicks away of the mouse a bit of an opening on the maps below

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.922...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1ta2RrpFFvMTh8dl4CDdzg!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.922...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_xYJOxFSKMVJnKHPh2z_pQ!2e0
top view
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9236417,-78.6178702,515m/data=!3m1!1e3


and then this area discussed before, seems to have isolated access, seems like not very eyes around by that dirt road, but again hard to tell without local context. It isn't in Walnut Creek Park, but perhaps within his comfort zone.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...2!3m1!1s0x89b39d29f2137c9f:0xa77129065339ed67

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.925...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXxAPx6oGSrraW4dc82V7yg!2e0

 

[ThinkHard]

Kept looking for where he may have gone into the park with the least chance of anyone seeing his tail lights, below are a couple of guesses. There's a bend on OL Rd, that's pretty isolated, that I think locals with knowledge and context could perhaps consider if it could've worked for him?

There's this marker, and then two clicks away of the mouse a bit of an opening on the maps below

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.922...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s1ta2RrpFFvMTh8dl4CDdzg!2e0

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.922...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s_xYJOxFSKMVJnKHPh2z_pQ!2e0
top view
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9236417,-78.6178702,515m/data=!3m1!1e3


and then this area discussed before, seems to have isolated access, seems like not very eyes around by that dirt road, but again hard to tell without local context. It isn't in Walnut Creek Park, but perhaps within his comfort zone.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/3...2!3m1!1s0x89b39d29f2137c9f:0xa77129065339ed67

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.925...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXxAPx6oGSrraW4dc82V7yg!2e0

We may be over thinking this tail lights thing. It would have been roughly 2-230 am (i believe, id have to check times, and map it exactly to be more accurate) if he drove straight from the downtown mall area to
the spot where she was found. I'm guessing most people are sleeping at that time of night/early morning. So I could easily see how he could drive right into the driveway, or park, or side road without anyone noticing tail lights. They would only be on briefly, then he would be able to turn the car off and be in darkness. That would have given him a few hours to be there with her (assuming she was killed and left there that night, which is what I'm leaning toward), and still be able to turn the tail lights back on, by drive away while neighbors where still snug in their beds.

 

[strawb93]

If that scenario is correct, then where did he kill her? Did he also assault her in the park if this was a "Lovers' Lane" without fear of the assault being heard?

That's why I am wondering about the cadaver dogs. It was discussed on here recently that there's nothing to suggest he ever had a body in the car as Longo was still talking like Hannah could still be alive after they had searched his car. So, assuming they did get cadaver dogs to search the car and they didn't detect anything he either killed her at the house or within a small time frame before the body would have been there long enough for cadaver dogs to pick up the scent.

This article claims a study showed a 98% success rate at 10 minutes exposure and 94% success rate at 2 minutes exposure. (In this case its body exposure to patches of carpet.)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.

That leads me to think that he had to have killed her at 3193, and if he didn't want to risk detection, why would he risk being in a different location for the assault?

 

[Zuri]

Welcome damien! Thank you for joining and posting!

:welcome2:

 

[strawb93]

Though I can't find anything to tell me how long a body must be dead before the dogs detect the smell.