Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

[LG3]

Is it odd to anyone else that she didn't have a purse that night? Or maybe I'm wrong and it's common for UVA girls to go out without a purse. I just thought was a bit strange and wondered if maybe her purse was stolen at an earlier party that night or something and that's why she set off walking and got lost.

 

[JoM7]

I absolutely agree. I can't help but think back about Jamisha Gilbert whose cause of death was hyperthermia. She was found not far from where Morgan Harrington and Hannah Graham were found. The cause of death was hypothermia but she was covered in scratches from head to toe, quite possibly from running through the prickly bushes where she was found. This after her wrecked car was found. Was she run off the road? Was she running like hell from someone who was chasing her? Did she freeze to death out of fear that the perp, if there was one, would find her?

 

[ThinkHard]

Just my thoughts but from a 'spiked' drink at Tempo;free ride sounds good if you're alone,look at the high fives he gave ,he's known to people. She's in his car (per LE);I see a quick blow to the face,neck ,or chest with his ham-like fist;and he has his newest victim.(forget tasers ,he doesn't need them) .He shoots down 5th to OL and feels powerful there( this is where he grew up). I also feel he knew the cottage was empty,he plans these assaults ahead and then when he finds a victim ,he's ready. Assault is out of the car;he's a big guy in a compact car. If his MO holds(Fairfax victim) He strangles her and dumps body. Just my opinion. As for the turkey vultures /or black buzzards; from studies done in Texas at the Body Farm a corpse is left in a field for 5 weeks before the vultures find it ;in hrs it is broken bones. So when the birds were seen is irrelevant .The key to his conviction is the evidence found at the site. Possibly JM's DNA on her pants ,other clothing,her shoes, phone,found with his prints; and evidence from the orange car.Just my opinion.

I do not know much about autopsies...or the decaying process....or buzzards....but I was wondering....I know the birds can jump up and down and break the bones....but I'd have to think some...even small pieces of brain matter would be hard for the buzzards to get too...I dunno though....is it possible there could have been any brain matter left?....or would bugs and rodents have eaten it?

 

[StormyNights]

Is it odd to anyone else that she didn't have a purse that night? Or maybe I'm wrong and it's common for UVA girls to go out without a purse. I just thought was a bit strange and wondered if maybe her purse was stolen at an earlier party that night or something and that's why she set off walking and got lost.

Just from my own experiences in my younger days: When I would go out to the bars/clubs/parties I would never bring a purse or even a small coin purse with me. It was a pain for me to hold it all night and I didn't trust putting it down/leaving it somewhere. I always brought my I.D. and money. If I had no pockets I would just stick them in my bra. Most of my friends that I would go party with did the same thing. So, for me, it is not the least bit unusual for her to not have had a purse with her. MOO

 

[Foxfire]

This is interesting, not having seen the segment yet, and both you and Foxfire have a good eye for detail. What stands out credibly to both of you from this report. And if you happened to have caught the Wolf Blitzer and Coy Barefoot broadcast, especially the second half of it? Sorry to impose.

<BBM for Focus>

FindHG, I missed the Wolf Blitzer/Coy Barefoot broadcast.. Searched for a video replay link this morning but can't find it.

'Searching for clues segment'? FNC OTR w Greta VanSusteren

The discarded tire near where HG's body was located? Imo, this location was likely a frequently used garbage dump site or possibly JM's missing tire?
Ted Williams said that he was corrected by a detective when he said that HG's body was located in the dry creek bed.

TW & GJ, seemed to indicate that JM came from the vacant cottage with HG, and possibly dragged her to the woods to dispose/conceal her lifeless body.. Seems plausible that HG was murdered in the cottage.. Otherwise, why were TW & GJ illustrating how JM may have drug her body to the disposal site?

I think it is interesting that they indicated that JM came from the cottage. Why would a sexual predator/serial killer not use a vacant cottage to provide privacy and shelter from the elements to carry out their deviant acts.. Strays and neighbors barking dogs alerting others of his presence could jeopardize his plans. JM was a woodsman/HUNTER/outdoors person and knew the forest well.. Even at 2AM in the morning, it would not be impossible for someone to happen upon you in the forest.. Coon hunting and trapping is a nocturnal sport and coons<as well as coon hunters> inhabit areas around creeks and streams..jmo

___________________
"So even with last year's high harvest, I think hunters will enjoy a good season this fall and winter," said Rich Rogers, furbearer project leader for the state Division of Natural Resources.

If raccoon hunting has an epicenter in West Virginia, it almost certainly is found in the state's southern counties. Rogers said pelt sales show that southern hunters kill many more coons than northern hunters.

"For the past three years, we've been asking fur buyers to check off whether they bought each pelt from a hunter or from a trapper," he explained. "The only part of the state where more than half the pelts came from hunters is the area south of Charleston. In the rest of the state, most of the pelts came from trappers."

- See more at: http://www.wvgazette.com/Outdoors/201210130116#sthash.Sgnz9hDa.dpuf

 

[StormyNights]

I was curious about something: Could one of the buzzards/vultures stomach contents be examined? I hate to write this and I apologize for the graphic nature of this to some: But if some of Hannah's tissues were to be in these birds stomachs, would they be able to test that for drug? I am thinking of the date rape drug specifically. I am aware that most likely those birds stomach's will have been "purged" of whatever part of Hannah they may have ingested by now, but I am just curious if that is something that is even possible to do?

 

[3filles]

He clearly lied about giving only one interview which he said he only did because his mother asked him to!? And, in defense of even the worst journalist, how do you misinform the date(s) of September 30th and October 5th/6th? Several of them would have had to do this, as a matter of fact? I'm not saying Mr. Pugh's story is hinky, but there's SOMETHING wrong with it!

As far as the only giving one interview thing goes, I imagine that that was his original intention and then he was bombarded with requests and hounded I'm sure. Since he'd already told his story once, I can hear the journalists telling him, why not tell it again... It is their job to get the story for their station or paper and they can be very unrelenting and persuasive. I don't think it is fair to call Mr P a liar because he changed his mind.
And as for the dates, it is unfortunate but does not surprise me in the least. I'm sure you have read some poorly written, gleaned from someone else's report, not fact checked articles... I know that when I read about one story from multiple sources I will almost always find some inconsistencies. Not to mention the fact that there were apparently 2 tips called in about the buzzards on that property several days apart if I recall correctly... That one fact might explain there being two different dates reported.
I am just saying, respectfully, that this is a private citizen who has done nothing wrong. He did his duty by calling in the tip and then kindly fed all of our voracious appetites for more information by agreeing to tell his story... and to call him a LIAR just seems unwarranted and unjust.
Perhaps I just am very cynical, but I take all news reports with a grain of salt. I just wouldn't call a witness or tipster a liar based on that and that alone.
Does anyone understand what I mean?
And certainly you are entitled to draw your own conclusions... but liar is not a word I use lightly
JMO and I do not want to offend....

 

[jbowman55]

This is interesting, not having seen the segment yet, and both you and Foxfire have a good eye for detail. What stands out credibly to both of you from this report. And if you happened to have caught the Wolf Blitzer and Coy Barefoot broadcast, especially the second half of it? Sorry to impose.

I'll withhold comment until I get home this evening and can watch the report again with new eyes. I think ILOKAL hit the nail on the head for me; what I was seeing is that Williams just isn't very authoritative in the way he presents material, and I had no idea that he was a seasoned LE officer. Perhaps they should have touched on his background in the report so everyone watching would know who he is!

I've heard many of the Blitzer and Barefoot reports; are you speaking of yesterday afternoon's show? What I recall most about it was the discussion about the TWO MEN who reported seeing buzzards. I believe there were two men, not one man who changes his story, but I cannot explain why carrion birds would be around that area for so many days. There is something odd about that. Also, in case it makes a difference, I am listening to these reports on satellite radio rather than watching them on TV, so if info is visible but not audible, I'd miss it.

Somewhere I believe I heard that LE is finished with the 3193 site and have released Hannah's remains to her family. Not sure where I heard it, though. Did anyone else hear that?

 

[Foxfire]

As far as the only giving one interview thing goes, I imagine that that was his original intention and then he was bombarded with requests and hounded I'm sure. Since he'd already told his story once, I can hear the journalists telling him, why not tell it again... It is their job to get the story for their station or paper and they can be very unrelenting and persuasive. I don't think it is fair to call Mr P a liar because he changed his mind.
And as for the dates, it is unfortunate but does not surprise me in the least. I'm sure you have read some poorly written, gleaned from someone else's report, not fact checked articles... I know that when I read about one story from multiple sources I will almost always find some inconsistencies. Not to mention the fact that there were apparently 2 tips called in about the buzzards on that property several days apart if I recall correctly... That one fact might explain there being two different dates reported.
I am just saying, respectfully, that this is a private citizen who has done nothing wrong. He did his duty by calling in the tip and then kindly fed all of our voracious appetites for more information by agreeing to tell his story... and to call him a LIAR just seems unwarranted and unjust.
Perhaps I just am very cynical, but I take all news reports with a grain of salt. I just wouldn't call a witness or tipster a liar based on that and that alone.
Does anyone understand what I mean?
And certainly you are entitled to draw your own conclusions... but liar is not a word I use lightly
JMO and I do not want to offend....

<BBM for Focus>

I absolutely do, 3filles.. Until a person walks in the shoes of Mr Bobby Pugh, they should not judge him, his motives, or his honesty, imo. I salute him...
'There is a reason that spokespersons at pressers spell their names to the reporters before the press conference'...:laughing:

 

[jamicat]

Whether she went willingly or not, and we really have no evidence to even support she went willingly, it will not be an issue anyway. The minute anyone holds someone against their will they are guilty of abduction. A jury knows no one goes willingly with someone who has intentions of raping and plans to murder them.

When she realized that she was in grave danger from this beast I have no doubt she either begged him to let her go or tried to get out of the cab in order to escape what was happening to her and he held her against her will. It is obvious he did not let her go so he was in the middle of a felony abduction when he murdered Hannah. Imo, the jury will get it with no problem and I do think at some point the charges will be upgraded to murder. They are in no rush to start the clock ticking on the murder charges.

It is very logical that Hannah had been abducted by JM and that is why her remains were found after JM murdered her during that abduction.

And that is what the DA will want to prove in a court of law, not just with logic, but with evidence, including forensic evidence, circumstantial evidence. But that has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt, and the jury will be so instructed. If it's possible she decided to go off and party with JM, that possibility is supposed to be taken into consideration. But no one goes off to be thrown in a ditch and left to the buzzards. That can be assumed as fact. Though there is no video footage or eyewitness as to what happened where Hannah was found, IMO, if JM could be placed there, there would be a decent chance that he could be held responsible for her. It was important that Hannah was found, not only to bring some form of solace, closure to her parents, but also to nail JM. Without a body, any number of theories of what happened to Hannah after she and JM parted ways could be possible. Now we know that she is dead and hopefully she holds some evidence as to what was done to her and by whom.

Though I don't believe for an instant, and never did, that JM just walked her through the mall and then left her somewhere alive, there has to be more evidence than logic to hold JM responsible for her death. I hope Hannah can "speak to us" from her death with evidence on her body as to who killed her.

 

[Emaa]

As far as the only giving one interview thing goes, I imagine that that was his original intention and then he was bombarded with requests and hounded I'm sure. Since he'd already told his story once, I can hear the journalists telling him, why not tell it again... It is their job to get the story for their station or paper and they can be very unrelenting and persuasive. I don't think it is fair to call Mr P a liar because he changed his mind.
And as for the dates, it is unfortunate but does not surprise me in the least. I'm sure you have read some poorly written, gleaned from someone else's report, not fact checked articles... I know that when I read about one story from multiple sources I will almost always find some inconsistencies. Not to mention the fact that there were apparently 2 tips called in about the buzzards on that property several days apart if I recall correctly... That one fact might explain there being two different dates reported.
I am just saying, respectfully, that this is a private citizen who has done nothing wrong. He did his duty by calling in the tip and then kindly fed all of our voracious appetites for more information by agreeing to tell his story... and to call him a LIAR just seems unwarranted and unjust.
Perhaps I just am very cynical, but I take all news reports with a grain of salt. I just wouldn't call a witness or tipster a liar based on that and that alone.
Does anyone understand what I mean?
And certainly you are entitled to draw your own conclusions... but liar is not a word I use lightly
JMO and I do not want to offend....

Very well said. Thank you.

 

[jamicat]

I was curious about something: Could one of the buzzards/vultures stomach contents be examined? I hate to write this and I apologize for the graphic nature of this to some: But if some of Hannah's tissues were to be in these birds stomachs, would they be able to test that for drug? I am thinking of the date rape drug specifically. I am aware that most likely those birds stomach's will have been "purged" of whatever part of Hannah they may have ingested by now, but I am just curious if that is something that is even possible to do?

Someone who knows more about such drugs could give more info, but from what I have read, those drugs dissipate from the system very quickly so getting evidence that someone has been so drugged is difficult. Also it would be a lottery picking buzzard randomly to autopsy.

But more importantly, I think the focus is getting a murder charge. The Abduction with intent to defile just might hold up given descriptions of Hannah's condition, but the bottom line is murder. She was murdered. Whether she was raped or had consenusal sex or no sex at all before being killed, is not as important IMO, as getting that murder charge on the table.

 

[Meemaw12]

He clearly lied about giving only one interview which he said he only did because his mother asked him to!? And, in defense of even the worst journalist, how do you misinform the date(s) of September 30th and October 5th/6th? Several of them would have had to do this, as a matter of fact? I'm not saying Mr. Pugh's story is hinky, but there's SOMETHING wrong with it!

I believe part of the (tip) story will be straightened out today.

 

[Foxfire]

For some reason, I just do not think he bound his victims. I think he relied on incapacitating them, and his brute strength. I think ties would have been difficult to hide from others who might get in his car...I also think it shows a level a premeditation that I just don't think he has. I do not think he is the type of rapist/murderer who has a plan per se. I think he seizes opportunities when they come across his path...and I think something about the vulnerability of the women...excites him. I think he happened to drive past MH that night, and once she was in his cab his impulses went crazy. I think its similar with Hannah. Maybe he always had date drugs, and maybe he knew some places....but I don't think he left the house on the day/night either girl went missing knowing he was going to murder that night.

I understand that many folks don't want to think the worst in JM's trail of terror but the signs, traits, and JM's history indicates an extremely escalated and sadistic sexual predator/serial killer that likely occurred over a period of two decades.. JM's instincts and MO is synonymous to that of a mountain lion...hunt, stalk, attack, torture, kill, devour...

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/psexsad.htm
Psychopathic Sexual Sadists
The Psychology and Psychodynamics of Serial Killers

By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S.

This article examined serial murderers, who violated their victims sexually, as reported within the journalistic, academic, and law enforcement literatures. The study focused on the practical application of the clinical criteria of Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) and Sexual Sadism as defined in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV.

The goal of this study was locating within clinical literature specific references of behavior which could be utilized in "predicting future dangerousness" of serial killers who were described as "psychopathic sexual sadists."
<sniped - read more>

 

[ILOKAL]

As far as the only giving one interview thing goes, I imagine that that was his original intention and then he was bombarded with requests and hounded I'm sure. Since he'd already told his story once, I can hear the journalists telling him, why not tell it again... It is their job to get the story for their station or paper and they can be very unrelenting and persuasive. I don't think it is fair to call Mr P a liar because he changed his mind.
And as for the dates, it is unfortunate but does not surprise me in the least. I'm sure you have read some poorly written, gleaned from someone else's report, not fact checked articles... I know that when I read about one story from multiple sources I will almost always find some inconsistencies. Not to mention the fact that there were apparently 2 tips called in about the buzzards on that property several days apart if I recall correctly... That one fact might explain there being two different dates reported.
I am just saying, respectfully, that this is a private citizen who has done nothing wrong. He did his duty by calling in the tip and then kindly fed all of our voracious appetites for more information by agreeing to tell his story... and to call him a LIAR just seems unwarranted and unjust.
Perhaps I just am very cynical, but I take all news reports with a grain of salt. I just wouldn't call a witness or tipster a liar based on that and that alone.
Does anyone understand what I mean?
And certainly you are entitled to draw your own conclusions... but liar is not a word I use lightly
JMO and I do not want to offend....

Two days before the remains were found, a neighbor and her husband smelled a bad odor and may have seen buzzards (I don't recall). They did not call in the tip, as far as was reported, just simply closed their windows. That interview too was televised and her name was given and no, it was not Mr. Pugh.

The four different articles/interviews that I provided links for at Post #1038 WERE about Mr. Pugh, not some other tipster.

Please do your part and provide a link to the alleged "other" male tipster who also reported vultures around the same time frame as Mr. Pugh did with a name. Thank you and no, I am not offended as I don't offend easily.

 

[jamicat]

Is it odd to anyone else that she didn't have a purse that night? Or maybe I'm wrong and it's common for UVA girls to go out without a purse. I just thought was a bit strange and wondered if maybe her purse was stolen at an earlier party that night or something and that's why she set off walking and got lost.

Nope, not at all. She was going to parties in the Corner which is where UVA undergrads tend to hang out, and near where she lived. Didn't even need id or money. Probably a key card in her pocket and the cell phone was all she brought with her. There's a good picture of her walking down the hallway of her apartment or other apartment early in the evenng and no purse in sight.

 

[JoM7]

I agree with you that he had to know the area, at least in a general,sense, where the quiet roads are, stuff like that. Come to think of it, I grew up in a spread out area, heavily wooded, not rural but rural parts. In high school I knew all the side roads, back roads, the roads few people traveled, or cops rarely went...why? Teenage stuff...woods parties, parking spots, spots to go smoke marijuana. If JLM grew up around here, its possible he could have been familiar with the area for similar reasons.

Also I just wanted to point out that where HG was found it wasn't really abandoned property. It just wasnt currently being occupied. It was owned, on the market for a bit even, and was trying to be rented. To me abandon building is like one that's run down, and no one claims, or is caring for. This was t me a propert, without current residence. Anyway the simple semantics, change to me, what JLM would have known about that location, and perhaps more importantly why he would have known about that location. Its not like he knew of an old, long since abandon property no one goes too. This house was different then that. He would have specifically have to have known, that no one was CURRENTLY living there. It strikes me that it simply wouldn't have been enough to have seen the house listed on rental, or on a for sale sight, and know it wasn't being occupied. Because plenty of places for sale or rent still have current tenants. Perhaps he visited with the landlord and knew no one was there? I dunno that seems also too premeditated for this guy. I'm not convinced he was a planner, beyond strike when there was an opportunity, and he had a "hunger" (which seems stronger in the fall btw). More likely I'd be willing to bet he had a conversation in the days and weeks before at some point about that very house, and someone mentioned they were trying to rent it, but no one was living there, in a casual conversation way. Then when he had HG and started driving, he thought of that place.

I can't help but wonder if they were in his car and Hannah bolted out of the car and ran up to that property, hoping someone was home. These girls having been found deep into the brush suggest to me they were running for their lives.

 

[JoM7]

I can't access CNN, so just curious....why was he looking forward to it?

They said he was looking forward to a "road trip," a chance to get out and see something other than the inside of a jail cell. I've got news for him...

 

[ThinkHard]

I really think JM kept the religious aspect up as just another cover so that others would see what he wanted them to see rather than see the true monster that lay within.

I don't think JM has a conscience and I also don't think he has any feelings for his victims. That is why he could easily go out and do it all over again.

Life to JM was all about him and what he felt he was entitled to do.

Respectfully I disagree. I think there is more to it then that.

 

[ThinkHard]

I understand that many folks don't want to think the worst in JM's trail of terror but the signs, traits, and JM's history indicates an extremely escalated and sadistic sexual predator/serial killer that likely occurred over a period of two decades.. JM's instincts and MO is synonymous to that of a mountain lion...hunt, stalk, attack, torture, kill, devour...

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/psexsad.htm
Psychopathic Sexual Sadists
The Psychology and Psychodynamics of Serial Killers

By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S.

This article examined serial murderers, who violated their victims sexually, as reported within the journalistic, academic, and law enforcement literatures. The study focused on the practical application of the clinical criteria of Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) and Sexual Sadism as defined in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV.

The goal of this study was locating within clinical literature specific references of behavior which could be utilized in "predicting future dangerousness" of serial killers who were described as "psychopathic sexual sadists."
<sniped - read more>

With respect it has nothing to do with wanting to see him in any particular way, even as somehow less gruesome, I just want to see the truth.

And in what we know the version of truth I believe to be most likely is that he did not bind his victims.