Hannah Graham: Remains Identified

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
cluciano63 said:
LE has to be able to prove he murdered Hannah, and perhaps raped her. Defense can suggest alternatives without proof needed, more or less. Imo, if there is a trial, it may be suggested that Hannah went with JM willingly, maybe even that she knew him in some way, and that he dropped her off somewhere. They do not have to prove any of that. LE has to be able to prove that he was at the spot where she was found, that her remains and/or clothing show he had physical, malicious contact with her and killed her. Imo, what evidence appeared where is vital, since it is a known fact he was with her and walked away with her, presumably ending up in his car. Being with her is not proof of murder nor is his background unless allowed by a judge. Just have to wait and see, Imo. It will depend a lot on actual scientific evidence, and how incriminating it is. JM's DNA from sweat, for example, on her top, does not spell murder, while semen on her clothing tells a whole other story. Jmo
Click to expand...
Even if she went with him willingly, even if she did consent to sexual relations, even if she had a seizure and died of natural causes, then why wouldn't he take her to the nearest ER? Perhaps because he knew they would find date rape drug in her system? I think he left her out in the elements to destroy all evidence. Being a hunter, he would surely know that would be the fastest way. JMHO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Whether she went willingly or not, and we really have no evidence to even support she went willingly, it will not be an issue anyway. The minute anyone holds someone against their will they are guilty of abduction. A jury knows no one goes willingly with someone who has intentions of raping and plans to murder them.

When she realized that she was in grave danger from this beast I have no doubt she either begged him to let her go or tried to get out of the cab in order to escape what was happening to her and he held her against her will. It is obvious he did not let her go so he was in the middle of a felony abduction when he murdered Hannah. Imo, the jury will get it with no problem and I do think at some point the charges will be upgraded to murder. They are in no rush to start the clock ticking on the murder charges.

It is very logical that Hannah had been abducted by JM and that is why her remains were found after JM murdered her during that abduction.
Click to expand...

I think you are missing the fact that though you are trying to say that they can prove abduction because who would go willingly to get murdered, they first have to prove he murdered her. (Abduction charges were also filed before she was discovered so before she was murdered, so they must have something else for this). Despite the fact they have a body, and she was last seen with him, in order to prove even probably cause for murder they have to place him or his car at the scene of where her body was found. To our knowledge this has not been done yet. So they can't use murder to support abduction...if they can't prove murder.
 
ILOKAL said:
Two days before the remains were found, a neighbor and her husband smelled a bad odor and may have seen buzzards (I don't recall). They did not call in the tip, as far as was reported, just simply closed their windows. That interview too was televised and her name was given and no, it was not Mr. Pugh.

The four different articles/interviews that I provided links for at Post #1038 WERE about Mr. Pugh, not some other tipster.

Please do your part and provide a link to the alleged "other" male tipster who also reported vultures around the same time frame as Mr. Pugh did with a name. Thank you and no, I am not offended as I don't offend easily.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember the interview with the neighbor... A Mrs H, maybe? ( and she was raked over the coals a bit...)The second tip was discussed here in this thread yesterday. I will look for it and post a link. I do not believe a name was given but I could be wrong.
I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree on this one. We could compile stories all day. I could show you news reports and legal documents with mistakes and you could show me countless versions of Mr P's interview... But in the end I think I will compare it to a game of "telephone" and you will feel that someone was deceptive... And that's what makes the world go round I guess.
I just felt compelled to speak out on his behalf as just a guy who went to work one day, did his duty by reporting something suspicious, and now we are discussing him by name on the internet and making judgements about his character...
I just would like to point out that regardless of anyone's opinion about WHEN he called in his tip, I do not think anyone would dispute that it was a GOOD thing that ultimately helped ( probably along with other tips) to focus the search in that area.
Beyond that I'm not sure discussing him adds much of anything to understanding what happened
Again,respectfully, JMO
 
Originally Posted by ThinkHard View Post
For some reason, I just do not think he bound his victims. I think he relied on incapacitating them, and his brute strength. I think ties would have been difficult to hide from others who might get in his car...I also think it shows a level a premeditation that I just don't think he has. I do not think he is the type of rapist/murderer who has a plan per se. I think he seizes opportunities when they come across his path...and I think something about the vulnerability of the women...excites him. I think he happened to drive past MH that night, and once she was in his cab his impulses went crazy. I think its similar with Hannah. Maybe he always had date drugs, and maybe he knew some places....but I don't think he left the house on the day/night either girl went missing knowing he was going to murder that night.
Click to expand...

ThinkHard said:
With respect it has nothing to do with wanting to see him in any particular way, even as somehow less gruesome, I just want to see the truth.

And in what we know the version of truth I believe to be most likely is that he did not bind his victims.
Click to expand...

ThinkHard, I was replying to the many theories that you raised in your first post above. Zip ties are used to restrain their victims by many, if not most sexual predators/SKs.. JM would not have known if HG had a weapon/knife, pepper spray, etc hidden on her. Once compliant, imo, HG would have likely been restrained..
Zip ties have a multitude of uses and can be found in many law abiding citizen's cars or tool boxes..
 
Does anyone know if an obituary has been put in the paper and what the funeral arrangements are?
 
Foxfire said:
ThinkHard, I was replying to the many theories that you raised in your post above. Zip ties are used to restrain their victims by many, if not most sexual predators/SKs.. JM would not have known if HG had a weapon/knife, pepper spray, etc hidden on her. Once compliant, imo, HG would have likely been restrained..
Zip ties have a multitude of uses and can be found in many law abiding citizen's cars or tool boxes..
Click to expand...

Yes, I understood, and I was continuing the discussion by considering that theory. And I've given it thought. And I just don't happen to agree with it.

I don't think he used restraints, so I do not think that was the piece of evidence that was found in his car that allowed police to file charges, and gain a warrant to his apartment. Its a theory. Its just not one I personally see as being part of JLM's MO (no matter what's statistically likely). We know him to be take advantage of weakness (intoxication, hands full, alone, lost) and beat them. I think his fists where his restraints and I think that is more likely based on what we know of HIM specifically....opposed to stats in general.

But please don't think I'm missing something. I just see it differently. But I do appreciate your input and response, because every angle is worth exploring...and given the nature of this crime and stats it is certainly is an angle worth exploring. From my perspective, I've explored it, thanks to you, and I think its likelihood of being what they found in his car is low. JMTC
 
LG3 said:
Is it odd to anyone else that she didn't have a purse that night? Or maybe I'm wrong and it's common for UVA girls to go out without a purse. I just thought was a bit strange and wondered if maybe her purse was stolen at an earlier party that night or something and that's why she set off walking and got lost.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I even owned a purse when I was an undergrad at UVa :) Well, if I did, I never used it. Times have changed with respect to cell phones, but I only ever went out with my student id, key, and cash/credit card all tucked into a key-chain mini-wallet. Same with all of my friends. I'd imagine the only difference today is that students put those things in their cell phone cases.
 
I know I have to discuss this on the other board about possible connected cases....but I was just doing some research on some of the other missing girls...and I was pretty shocked to realize there was a 23 yr old who went missing/last seen 1 week before Morgan....guess where here remains where found....in the woods, sorta tucked away....on a hill/mtn. on a college campus in lynchburg.....want to know what college? .....

Yup

Liberty!
 
3filles said:
Yes, I remember the interview with the neighbor... A Mrs H, maybe? ( and she was raked over the coals a bit...)The second tip was discussed here in this thread yesterday. I will look for it and post a link. I do not believe a name was given but I could be wrong.
I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree on this one. We could compile stories all day. I could show you news reports and legal documents with mistakes and you could show me countless versions of Mr P's interview... But in the end I think I will compare it to a game of "telephone" and you will feel that someone was deceptive... And that's what makes the world go round I guess.
I just felt compelled to speak out on his behalf as just a guy who went to work one day, did his duty by reporting something suspicious, and now we are discussing him by name on the internet and making judgements about his character...
I just would like to point out that regardless of anyone's opinion about WHEN he called in his tip, I do not think anyone would dispute that it was a GOOD thing that ultimately helped ( probably along with other tips) to focus the search in that area.
Beyond that I'm not sure discussing him adds much of anything to understanding what happened
Again,respectfully, JMO
Click to expand...

I'm not asking for a compilation of stories - ONLY ONE! I don't believe another such male tipster exists, but because some feel so confident that one DOES, then there must be proof SOMEWHERE to back-up that confidence and I would like to see it. I clearly provided four different articles/interviews of Mr. Pugh, each with different dates of when he saw the vultures, what he did and didn't do, what he observed, and when he called in the tip, and no two are the same. (See Post #1038). We are here looking for answers and I have every right to inquire as to why there would be such discrepancies from the only person who knows. He's seen his interviews, he's read the reports, he's read the transcripts, he has SEEN those bothersome discrepancies. With the same initiative he used to come forward with his story/ies, he too should now come forward with a reasonable explanation. Should we REALLY just accept, from the very person who lead LE to the location of Hannah, no less than four different stories without question? I think,not!

Don't shoot the messenger!
 
• The Campbell County, Va., Sheriff's Office is reportedly checking for any possible links between Matthew and Cassandra Morton, whose body was found in November 2009 in Lynchburg, not far from Liberty University. Matthew attended the school from 2000-2002. Sheriff Steve Hutcherson declined to discuss the case this week. "It's an ongoing investigation, and it's pulling the team away from the task at hand when they do interviews," said a woman who answered the phone at the sheriff's office.
• Police in Newport News are looking for any possible links between Matthew and two women who disappeared while Matthew was attending Christopher Newport University in that area. "At this time, we can't link him by evidence to those missing persons cases," Minkoff says.
Click to expand...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/27/recent-arrests-prompt-cold-case-investigations/17836985
 
CatchingClues said:
Even if she went with him willingly, even if she did consent to sexual relations, even if she had a seizure and died of natural causes, then why wouldn't he take her to the nearest ER? Perhaps because he knew they would find date rape drug in her system? I think he left her out in the elements to destroy all evidence. Being a hunter, he would surely know that would be the fastest way. JMHO
Click to expand...

I don't know how far the DA has to go to prove that she was murdered. I don't think the rape drug is going to get anywhere as it dissipates quickly in ones system, from what I undersatand. Even if they find some of the drug in JM's car or apartment, there is no way to prove he gave it to Hannah, unless there is residue in, say a beer bottle, with her saliva on the mouth of it that they found. With what Hannah was wearing, difficult to hide the bottle, and the checker would have likely said something if she saw JM and Hannah holding beer bottles out there (but then, maybe not). So the rape could even be out the window, though the focus would be murder.

But really, he could have taken her for a ride there, made his moves, she jumped out and told him to scram, and he just left her there alive and angry. Or elsewhere in the area and she made her way there. That JM was with her, maybe gave her a drink, walked out of the area with her, possibly that she got into his car with him, all could be proved with a little DNA like hair left in the car, and the surveillance tapes and witness ID, though not likely the drink part. So maybe she did have sex with him. Maybe it was consensual. Or maybe she sobered up when he made a pass and ran off and where she was found was where she ended up. Maybe some other creep found here; clearly no shortage of them around though at 2-3AM out in that area where she was found, it is really dubious that one would be taking a stroll like JM was in the mall. So I think that if LE can just tie JM to that place where Hannah was found, the circumstantial evidence would be sufficient for a murder convict. But if LE cannot, I don't see a convict.

Also, I think JM just left her there, because he just is too lazy to do anything else. Just pitch the body after he 's done, as he likely did to MH. Probably figured it would be a while before it was found. Didn't even bother to cover it. When you think about it, incredibly negigent. Same as MH's. Didn't bother to bury the pieces or hide in underbrush or woods, just left it in a ditch so anyone going by there would see a skull, quite tell tale. That he got scot free from MH's murder probalby made him so careless with this one. To me, it's all impulse driven.

So a lot can be riding of Hannah Graahm's remains beyond simple ID. Show she was murdered, show that JM was there with her.
 
This is one of the links you posted, ILOKAL, as being one of the stories about Mr. Pugh. It is my opinion that this story is NOT about Mr. Pugh, but is about the second person who called in the tip about buzzards on the property on Oct 6. Wolf Blitzer and Coy Barefoot tried to clear this up on the Situation Room last night. Wolf specifically stated that there are two men who made reports about the buzzards.

Mr. Pugh is named in all the other articles about his statements. Nowhere in this article does it say that this pertains to Mr. Pugh, and the specifics of this man's experience differ from Mr. Pugh's.

http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusive-where-hannah-was-found/

This is a different person who saw buzzards on a different day, got out of his vehicle and walked the property, even walked into the edge of the woods near where Hannah was.

This was covered once again on the Situation Room yesterday afternoon.
 
jbowman55 said:
This is one of the links you posted, ILOKAL, as being one of the stories about Mr. Pugh. It is my opinion that this story is NOT about Mr. Pugh, but is about the second person who called in the tip about buzzards on the property on Oct 6. Wolf Blitzer and Coy Barefoot tried to clear this up on the Situation Room last night. Wolf specifically stated that there are two men who made reports about the buzzards.

Mr. Pugh is named in all the other articles about his statements. Nowhere in this article does it say that this pertains to Mr. Pugh, and the specifics of this man's experience differ from Mr. Pugh's.

http://insidecville.com/blog/exclusive-where-hannah-was-found/

This is a different person who saw buzzards on a different day, got out of his vehicle and walked the property, even walked into the edge of the woods near where Hannah was.

This was covered once again on the Situation Room yesterday afternoon.
Click to expand...

Thank you, you are exactly right.
 
Emaa said:
Someone had posted about the passenger seat being forward. We don't know if it was like that when impounded or if LE moved it up in their search.
Click to expand...

If this picture was taken after the search then the driver side would likely be forward as well...they would check both sides.
 
BLITZER: Coy, you spoke with the second tipster who reported the property to police where they found Hannah Graham's remains, her body. He actually walked around the property. What did he have to say to you about that? BAREFOOT: I was with him this morning. And just to review here,

there were two gentlemen who called in on the tip line to report the property where Hannah Graham was eventually found, and both men were motivated to call in because of an unusual collection of very large buzzards that were all over the property. The gentleman that I was with this morning was a Navy SEAL. He'd served two tours in Vietnam.

And he said to me, he said, Coy, I've seen it all. And I can tell you, I got out of my car that morning, I walked behind that house, I walked into the woods, I stood there under all those buzzards, and I was so freaked out and nervous that I had to leave. And I would think that it takes quite a lot to creep out a Navy SEAL. He walked into the woods and as we know now he was only feet from the body of Hannah Graham, but he just did not see her.

That was the morning of October 6th. And he said the woods were so thick, and such a thicketed woods leading down to the creek that he couldn't see her. But he did walk the property and look as best as he could, Wolf.

BLITZER: So you hear about that.

Tom, we're told there's no more active digging going on, on that property, no more searching. So it would appear police believe they've collected enough evidence, there's nothing left there to go through. Is that your assessment?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 235 more.
Total: 2,805 (members: 236, guests: 2,569)

Online statistics

Members online
236
Guests online
2,570
Total visitors
2,806
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
599,799
Messages
18,099,764
Members
230,929
Latest member
Larney
Back
Top