Hannah Graham: The Search - #4

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wall0214 said:
I think the aerial images are deceptive. I have a family member who has 80 acres with a mix of heavily wooded areas and open space and with some areas that are farmed with corn - he said it would be impossible for him to search every inch of his property within a reasonable time frame and even after living on the property for 5+ years, he knows there are places on the property he's never been, so when you think that Anchorage Farm is 740+ acres and that Morgan's body was placed there (likely) in the fall - it's not all that unusual that someone could go on the property unnoticed. We have 5 acres and unless we're outside and hear a car pull up, we wouldn't know if someone was on our property.
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My family owns some rural properites. They are absentee landlords. They could not care less about the care of the properties and anyone could go on them at most anytime. It would be a rare coincidence if anyone took not, especially at 2-3 AM. No way, we be able to effectively search the properties either. I've said before that I would not swear something wasn't dumped in my 1 acre suburban plot. I've seen things get lost and be very difficult to find. The searchers have a job that makes looking for a needle in a haystack simplistic. As Mr Bass, owner of Anchorage Farm out and out said, it was pure chance he noticed MH's body and he was not capable of thoroughly searching his farm.

I don't know how mess JM's kills might be, if indeed he did do these things. His face was fine when he got his photo taken at DMV. Didn't look like his face had been in any scuffle. But then it seems to me that Hannah was not in the condition to fight much. If he'd slipped something into the drink he could have given her before he left, remember, he ordered 2 drinks (beers, I believe) at Tempos, took the trouble to do this when he had her coming with him arm in arm, before they left for his car. The checker at Tempo has said she was really in bad shape as they left, needing support to walk and even stand. So there may well not have been much resistance.

In the case of MH, who knows? Friends and family are not going to say their loved one wasn't a fighter. I take these remarks with a salt shaker in hand. No one seems to remember seeing JM looking like he got into a fight with a cat at that time either. So there might not have been too much clean up needed. He's a strong brute, wouldn't take much to snap the neck or strangle with very little fight.

I don't think he went far. Too impatient, too impulsive. I hope those pings do lead LE to Hannah's body. JM's scent may not be helpful He's likely been in a lot of these places. I think the cadaver dogs with the pings are the best bet.
 
FindHG said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3w1Wtk1-_Y

If LE may have found any of those tools in his car, that may be pretty damning, but could just putting it water kill it too?
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I think the battery was going on it anyways. As I said before, the young people I know always have dead phones or little juice and need to recharge. Besides. why should JM bother? If she fell asleep or unconcisous as it appears Hannah was heading from how the Tempo checker described her as she left the area, he could have just taken the phone from her and pitched it into a pond or any place where there is enough water to kill battery. End of her phone.
 
jamicat said:
My family owns some rural properites. They are absentee landlords. They could not care less about the care of the properties and anyone could go on them at most anytime. It would be a rare coincidence if anyone took not, especially at 2-3 AM. No way, we be able to effectively search the properties either. I've said before that I would not swear something wasn't dumped in my 1 acre suburban plot. I've seen things get lost and be very difficult to find. The searchers have a job that makes looking for a needle in a haystack simplistic. As Mr Bass, owner of Anchorage Farm out and out said, it was pure chance he noticed MH's body and he was not capable of thoroughly searching his farm.

I don't know how mess JM's kills might be, if indeed he did do these things. His face was fine when he got his photo taken at DMV. Didn't look like his face had been in any scuffle. But then it seems to me that Hannah was not in the condition to fight much. If he'd slipped something into the drink he could have given her before he left, remember, he ordered 2 drinks (beers, I believe) at Tempos, took the trouble to do this when he had her coming with him arm in arm, before they left for his car. The checker at Tempo has said she was really in bad shape as they left, needing support to walk and even stand. So there may well not have been much resistance.

In the case of MH, who knows? Friends and family are not going to say their loved one wasn't a fighter. I take these remarks with a salt shaker in hand. No one seems to remember seeing JM looking like he got into a fight with a cat at that time either. So there might not have been too much clean up needed. He's a strong brute, wouldn't take much to snap the neck or strangle with very little fight.

I don't think he went far. Too impatient, too impulsive. I hope those pings do lead LE to Hannah's body. JM's scent may not be helpful He's likely been in a lot of these places. I think the cadaver dogs with the pings are the best bet.
Click to expand...

It just makes me wonder - how do you effectively search an 8 mile radius - if you had dogs with you, I think it would be easier because they could pick up on scents, but I'm not sure that dogs have been available on all of the searches...
 
Looking for HG is a similiar location as MH was found makes sense. He was very comfortable being in that specific location (MH body on Anchorage Farm) knowing that HE COULD NOT BE SEEN FROM ANY ROAD OR HOUSE. The terrain is such that the Anchorage Farm house is on the other side of the hill, completely hidden from view....etc. This is factual....(At the time of them finding Morgan, a person on one of these websites drove around the roads and tried to see if they could see into the long small valley where she was found..and they could not... they actually POSTED A VIDEO of the drive around for all of us to see) It seems to me that JM chooses his location not caring if the body is out in the open to be found, but is HIGH INTERESTED in not being seen. INHO, they are going to find Hannah somewhere similar.... somewhere within a half mile of a lake, that cannot be seen from any regular road. Unfortunately, taking an 8 mile radius around C'vill, there will be hundreds of places just like that. If the phone record of pings is available, they will be able to semi-triangulate (need 3 cell phone towers to do that , but I think cell phones only ping 2 cell towers at a time). This will mean that there are LINES of areas that the ping could have come from and not single points as if it was true triangulation. The cell tower passes the call to the next strongest cell tower...and that is when the ping happens with the second cell tower (not a third one) even if there is no phone call.
 
SolVol said:
Foxfire is an expert on Serial Killers and a dowser who helps find unmarked graves, but as I recall, there was one other WS member who is also interested in researching old family and church cemeteries.

Yesterday, I went back to Search thread #3 but did not find the comment by the other person, but did find these comments about cemeteries and cedar trees:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Graham-The-Search-3&p=11081648#post11081648
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Graham-The-Search-3&p=11079795#post11079795
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Graham-The-Search-3&p=11079817#post11079817
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-Graham-The-Search-3&p=11079376#post11079376

Knowledge of old graves and early ownership of land by relatives of JLM might be very useful in the search for Hannah and other missing VA women.

Jesse Matthew may be driven by anger and vengeance in the deposition of the bodies of his victims.

It might be something as simple as a piece of land where he fished becomes a mini-estate subdivision with huge homes he might envy, or woods being cleared, an old black family church being torn down, or his people losing land due to tax and zoning board rulings (Bass, who owned the land where MH was depositied was chairman of zoning board for that county for many years).

The violence of JLM against women points to targeted, extreme anger/rage.

JMO
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IF JLM was the murderer of Cassandra Morton, depositing her on Liberty University grounds might be an act of vengeance.
Think about it - even her parents acknowledge that she had been involved in things Liberty U abhorred and expelled students for doing. What better way to get back at Liberty U than to put a 'naughty girl' there?
 
Le Singe said:
I'm not trying to question you, and the part about Quantico is coming in is certainly reasonable, but I like to keep things straight in my head so do you know that from a level higher than speculation or rumor. The mods don't want rumors posted, for me personally I can even tolerate rumors and certainly speculation but I think its really important that they are labeled as such.
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Of course; I feel the same, and probably should have provided a link at the time:
"Charlottesville Police Chief Tim Longo says the FBI's national academy class in Quantico has expressed interest in joining the search this weekend. That could mean hundreds of searchers to feed and supply."

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26774799...es-food-for-crews-searching-for-hannah-graham
 
Bonacker said:
Yes, I agree with this, too. Familiarity with water, with cleaning fish and cleaning gear near water, would draw a murderer to water as a disposal site. The crocs also make sense: Wade in the water, rinse in the water. Related thought, which I'll also put in the thread related to JM's clothing: JM "always wore those stupid shorts" (as a friend said after viewing video), and JM wore really strangely short pants --- "high-water pants" -- in the Texas convenience store video, too. High water pants, and crocs = a person who wades a lot, and wants to keep shoes and pants free from mud and/or evidence? Point being: He could clean himself up afterwards, especially in the warmth of September and October, in a stream, and that would even be habitual to him if indeed he's a fisherman.
Click to expand...

I think the "high-water pants" and crocs look of JM's was more of a style, rather than something born out of necessity. JMO. But I do think the theory that HG would likely be near water is a great one. I think it would be helpful to a) mark the spot more easily for him and b) use for potential clean-up.

I'm also thinking he might want the water nearby for quicker element-exposure. More animals near water perhaps...? Not fully under the canopy of trees...?
 
where is the search standing right now? are they continuing or at a standstill?
 
Le Singe said:
i found it so i guess the issue is that it was simply stated that the students from the academy expressed interest in searching as in boots on the ground (i.e. I read it to say they are offering man power not offsite technical assistance b/c they are talking about have to feed them). This is no way shape or form has anything to do with cell phone pings.

http://www.nbc29.com/story/26774799/group-collects-supplies-food-for-crews-searching-for-hannah-graham



My issue is more with the mention of quantico used to support that the pings are verified which I don't think it does.
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When I said specific information I mean that they will follow up on specific leads/tips, etc. and not radius searches. I think we can put this one to rest now. Hopefully I didn't confuse others as well.
 
Justice101 said:
Looking for HG is a similiar location as MH was found makes sense. He was very comfortable being in that specific location (MH body on Anchorage Farm) knowing that HE COULD NOT BE SEEN FROM ANY ROAD OR HOUSE. The terrain is such that the Anchorage Farm house is on the other side of the hill, completely hidden from view....etc. This is factual....(At the time of them finding Morgan, a person on one of these websites drove around the roads and tried to see if they could see into the long small valley where she was found..and they could not... they actually POSTED A VIDEO of the drive around for all of us to see) It seems to me that JM chooses his location not caring if the body is out in the open to be found, but is HIGH INTERESTED in not being seen. INHO, they are going to find Hannah somewhere similar.... somewhere within a half mile of a lake, that cannot be seen from any regular road. Unfortunately, taking an 8 mile radius around C'vill, there will be hundreds of places just like that. If the phone record of pings is available, they will be able to semi-triangulate (need 3 cell phone towers to do that , but I think cell phones only ping 2 cell towers at a time). This will mean that there are LINES of areas that the ping could have come from and not single points as if it was true triangulation. The cell tower passes the call to the next strongest cell tower...and that is when the ping happens with the second cell tower (not a third one) even if there is no phone call.
Click to expand...

How would all this cell phone ping activity be affected by the fact that this is a remote area with terrible cell reception? I'll mention Howardsville yet again - it's farther away from the 29 corridor, but the cell reception there was basically nonexistent. I'm basing this on personal experience, but granted, the last time I was there was 2012. More towers could have been installed since then, I suppose.

Ironically, it could be that the BEST place for cell reception in the immediate area would be on the top of a ridge. It does seem to me, when driving through hilly areas, that sometimes one can pick up a signal on the top of the ridge even if at no other time. I say ironically, because in that area, imo and from what I can tell from Google Maps, the more remote you get, the higher the elevation. Which might mean that his phone wouldn't have pinged at all if he had stayed in a valley, but it probably would have from the top of a ridge or from an area that's closer to the highway.
 
MJPeony said:
I think the "high-water pants" and crocs look of JM's was more of a style, rather than something born out of necessity. JMO.
Click to expand...

I think it's a little of both based on the mall video bottoms combined with his being known to fish. I grew up fishing and your pant bottoms sure get dirty/muddy/wet. We always rolled our pants up a bit in case we had to wade in some. Crocs weren't around so we always wore old sneakers since we knew they'd get wet. I definitely associate the look with fishing on myself and others. When I saw the convenience store video I immediately thought "fisherman." I still see people dressed like this and always think "fishing."
 
Justice101 said:
Looking for HG is a similiar location as MH was found makes sense. He was very comfortable being in that specific location (MH body on Anchorage Farm) knowing that HE COULD NOT BE SEEN FROM ANY ROAD OR HOUSE. The terrain is such that the Anchorage Farm house is on the other side of the hill, completely hidden from view....etc. This is factual....(At the time of them finding Morgan, a person on one of these websites drove around the roads and tried to see if they could see into the long small valley where she was found..and they could not... they actually POSTED A VIDEO of the drive around for all of us to see) It seems to me that JM chooses his location not caring if the body is out in the open to be found, but is HIGH INTERESTED in not being seen. INHO, they are going to find Hannah somewhere similar.... somewhere within a half mile of a lake, that cannot be seen from any regular road. Unfortunately, taking an 8 mile radius around C'vill, there will be hundreds of places just like that. If the phone record of pings is available, they will be able to semi-triangulate (need 3 cell phone towers to do that , but I think cell phones only ping 2 cell towers at a time). This will mean that there are LINES of areas that the ping could have come from and not single points as if it was true triangulation. The cell tower passes the call to the next strongest cell tower...and that is when the ping happens with the second cell tower (not a third one) even if there is no phone call.
Click to expand...

IMO I don't think he would have left another body there. Let me rephrase that, if it were me I wouldn't have left another body near or where I left one that was already found. Given what we know about JM he may have, but as for me, I would have done something totally different with any other bodies. If he's smart enough to not have been caught before now though I would assume he would choose somewhere else, but he is the type of person as we've seen that's almost in your face with his dirty deeds so really who knows?
 
jbowman55 said:
How would all this cell phone ping activity be affected by the fact that this is a remote area with terrible cell reception? I'll mention Howardsville yet again - it's farther away from the 29 corridor, but the cell reception there was basically nonexistent. I'm basing this on personal experience, but granted, the last time I was there was 2012. More towers could have been installed since then, I suppose.

Ironically, it could be that the BEST place for cell reception in the immediate area would be on the top of a ridge. It does seem to me, when driving through hilly areas, that sometimes one can pick up a signal on the top of the ridge even if at no other time. I say ironically, because in that area, imo and from what I can tell from Google Maps, the more remote you get, the higher the elevation. Which might mean that his phone wouldn't have pinged at all if he had stayed in a valley, but it probably would have from the top of a ridge or from an area that's closer to the highway.
Click to expand...

That's been my concern as well.

As of last weekend, the farms and mountains surrounding C-ville still have horrible reception - this includes areas that aren't "far from the beaten path" as well. We had a large group with us last weekend that had a minimum of 4 different cell phone carriers (Sprint, AT&T, etc.) and not a single one of us had reception. It was an utter dead zone. For any one of us to get reception, it was a 5+ mile drive even though we were only 20 minutes off of 29.

I question how valuable cell phone pings could be under those conditions.

I voiced the same concerns with regards to the SAR teams as well. There are vast areas that have neither cell reception nor reliable radio frequencies, so I worried about their ability to communicate effectively in such areas especially if they were hoping to use secure frequencies/channels.

The Herculean task the SAR teams are facing astounds me.
 
Although I mostly lurk, I have struggled with all the references to HG and MH being "dumped," "dump sites," etc. Although that may be the way killers think, and it may be the way those (FBI, etc.) who research killers refer to locations, I just want to thank those here who refer to these victims as being "placed" in a location. We are a victim-friendly website, and IMO it is hard to hear any of us referring to these victims being "dumped" as if they are garbage. JMO and all that.
 
SassyFras said:
That's been my concern as well.

As of last weekend, the farms and mountains surrounding C-ville still have horrible reception - this includes areas that aren't "far from the beaten path" as well. We had a large group with us last weekend that had a minimum of 4 different cell phone carriers (Sprint, AT&T, etc.) and not a single one of us had reception. It was an utter dead zone. For any one of us to get reception, it was a 5+ mile drive even though we were only 20 minutes off of 29.

I question how valuable cell phone pings could be under those conditions.

I voiced the same concerns with regards to the SAR teams as well. There are vast areas that have neither cell reception nor reliable radio frequencies, so I worried about their ability to communicate effectively in such areas especially if they were hoping to use secure frequencies/channels.

The Herculean task the SAR teams are facing astounds me.
Click to expand...

A vital part of SAR training is dealing with inadequacies of comms. My team knows if they can't reach base by radio or cell they should climb to a higher elevation to make the contact. Sure it takes extra time, but if the contact is required, such as an hourly check-in or a clue find, the training is built-in and they know what to do. There are also protocols built into training for relaying through other teams that hear you attempting and failing to contact base.
 
convenience store video is what I would like to see this is the first I heard of any please post link thank you
 
helpfulcharlie said:
A vital part of SAR training is dealing with inadequacies of comms. My team knows if they can't reach base by radio or cell they should climb to a higher elevation to make the contact. Sure it takes extra time, but if the contact is required, such as an hourly check-in or a clue find, the training is built-in and they know what to do. There are also protocols built into training for relaying through other teams that hear you attempting and failing to contact base.
Click to expand...

Very heartening to know that about the SAR teams. Thanks!
 
What if the site that the search team @ 'Giloman's farm' was aiming to investigate belonged to a retired Liberty U. person, or even a 'secret service protected' political personage, CIA/FBI retired, or someone in the FBI witness protection program? 'Giloman' didn't know them and said the property was entered by a 'very private road.' This area has many luxury private farm/mountain retreats owned by the rich, privileged, famous...even foreign leaders.

What then? Would the search be continued?

IF JLM was aware of or suspected who this person was, would he have planned to place a victim there for the embarrassment potential?

Maybe I've watched too many movies and mysteries, and my suspicion/alarm/fear alert system is set way too high due to many betrayals in life.

My working hypothesis is: Though JLM attacked/abducted as occasion/opportunity arose, he deposited (some of) the bodies to make a statement, for pay-back/vengeance...to create anguish/embarrassment for the property owner.

JMO/Suspicions
 
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