Hannah's Journey on 09/13

[Conductor71]

After reading the RS article, it makes me wonder if Hannah's case would have been handled with the same intensity if the last place Hannah was seen was a frat house. If UVA covered up a gang rape, why wouldn't they cover up a missing person case? I am sure that people connected to these frats are very infuential at the university.

Hugely influential, I imagine. Distinguished alum bring in lots of money and connections.

If a suspect is nailed in less than a week, and it can all be attributed to a beer she may have had long after leaving a frat house, there is little need for a cover up. A toxicology report would normally be essential in any sort of intent to defile case when the victim willingly walks off with the suspect, I would think. However, it seems maybe buzzards have made that impossible here.

It was reported that there were at least two big frat blowouts that night. St. Anthony Hall and Zeta Psi (?) got mention by Courteney Stuart of C-ville Weekly. HG attended two parties.

I don't buy into conspiracies, but the immediate disconnect between UVA and frat associations says there is something big going on behind the scenes. May have nothing to do with JM or HG, but there is something...this story is not really new, and they have hid it to well and for too long. Why the swift and decisive break now all of a sudden?

 

[4 Free Speech]

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/articl...i-kappa-psi-vandalism-lists-anonymous-demands

The letter included four demands:
• "An immediate revision of University policy mandating expulsion as the only sanction for rape and sexual assault."
• "The immediate suspension of UVA’s Phi Kappa Psi chapter, and a thorough review of the entire fraternity system."
• "A thorough overhaul of the University’s Sexual Misconduct Board and the resignation of Dean Nicole Eramo."
• "The immediate implementation of harm reduction policies at fraternity parties, such as policing, University supervision, or permission for parties to be held in safer environments such as sorority houses."

 

[Ollie]

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/articl...i-kappa-psi-vandalism-lists-anonymous-demands

The letter included four demands:
• "An immediate revision of University policy mandating expulsion as the only sanction for rape and sexual assault."
• "The immediate suspension of UVA’s Phi Kappa Psi chapter, and a thorough review of the entire fraternity system."
• "A thorough overhaul of the University’s Sexual Misconduct Board and the resignation of Dean Nicole Eramo."
• "The immediate implementation of harm reduction policies at fraternity parties, such as policing, University supervision, or permission for parties to be held in safer environments such as sorority houses."

Hello,how about UVA is not a separate state with it's own governing boards and laws;rapists should be prosecuted by Va. law enforcement. Expelling rapists moves them on to another school(remember JM). Women need to wake up,if you are or were a victim go to the police station ASAP. File a criminal complaint.When the Greeks committing these crimes go to prison ,it will stop. Suspending fraternities over the xmas holidays,not exactly a punishment. What does a sexual misconduct board do?Shake their collective fingers at the perps? Women need to be proactive ,encourage everyone to go to the law;be a friend and go with the victim,support them and don't hide in shame and carry the burden of being a victim. Demand fraternities clean up themselves ,morals and ethics need to be instilled.If a member doesn't follow policy;he's banned for life and reported to the university.This issue makes me angry.In 2014 that women tolerate the degrading behavior described in RS is appalling,if you lighted a candle for HG ,how can you not feel repulsed by this.I have to also include the doping and drug use on campus,serving 18 yr olds laced alcohol at a fraternity party is criminal and the school needs to prosecute any and all offenders,they sanctioned the organizations;yet it's just fun and they turn a blind eye to anyone injured.WVU had a dead freshman last week at a fraternity event.Parents you are paying a lot to get your kids an education not raped,and drugged;take on this issue with the institutions you're paying.

 

[dotr]

Sex assault at school, is an issue that is finally beginning to be addressed right across the board!

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/11/22/universities_and_colleges_launch_policy_review.html

"The Star found most universities across Canada, plus all public Ontario colleges, lack a special policy to deal with the issue. Women interviewed by the Star said that following an attack they felt their school did not provide support.

Friday, two schools named in the Star’s investigation — Queen’s University in Kingston and the University of Saskatchewan— announced they would institute a special policy. Only nine of 78 universities in Canada have such a policy, seen as a critical first step in tackling the issue. Of 24 colleges surveyed in Ontario, none has a policy.

“Our number-one priority right now is to make sure, as fast as we can, that women who have been sexually assaulted know they have a safe place to turn and can immediately find out what to do,” said Bonnie Patterson, president and chief executive officer of the Council of Ontario Universities".

 

[whonos]

Hugely influential, I imagine. Distinguished alum bring in lots of money and connections.

If a suspect is nailed in less than a week, and it can all be attributed to a beer she may have had long after leaving a frat house, there is little need for a cover up. A toxicology report would normally be essential in any sort of intent to defile case when the victim willingly walks off with the suspect, I would think. However, it seems maybe buzzards have made that impossible here.

It was reported that there were at least two big frat blowouts that night. St. Anthony Hall and Zeta Psi (?) got mention by Courteney Stuart of C-ville Weekly. HG attended two parties.

I don't buy into conspiracies, but the immediate disconnect between UVA and frat associations says there is something big going on behind the scenes. May have nothing to do with JM or HG, but there is something...this story is not really new, and they have hid it to well and for too long. Why the swift and decisive break now all of a sudden?

I think it is a result of the media frenzy surrounding the RS article. There are supporting articles published already. One of them cites comments by UVA women, some who are coming forward for the first time. Another is an interview of sorts with Liz Seccoro (spelling?). The woman who prosecuted and won the rape case against a man in the same fraternity, in 1984. I did not know that she also was gang raped. There were 3 of them. Apparently, this particular frat. has a history of multiple men involved. The young woman has no chance of escaping with 2 or 3 men holding her down.
It makes me feel sick to type that. Of course, JLM was aware that many people in authority were, in effect, approving of rape. I have no doubt it fueled his intentions.

Did anyone read the lyrics to the Rugby song! My question is why have not the women protested? It is as demeaning to women as many of the misogynist rap lyrics.

 

[whonos]

Hugely influential, I imagine. Distinguished alum bring in lots of money and connections.

If a suspect is nailed in less than a week, and it can all be attributed to a beer she may have had long after leaving a frat house, there is little need for a cover up. A toxicology report would normally be essential in any sort of intent to defile case when the victim willingly walks off with the suspect, I would think. However, it seems maybe buzzards have made that impossible here.

It was reported that there were at least two big frat blowouts that night. St. Anthony Hall and Zeta Psi (?) got mention by Courteney Stuart of C-ville Weekly. HG attended two parties.

I don't buy into conspiracies, but the immediate disconnect between UVA and frat associations says there is something big going on behind the scenes. May have nothing to do with JM or HG, but there is something...this story is not really new, and they have hid it to well and for too long. Why the swift and decisive break now all of a sudden?

I think it is a result of the media frenzy surrounding the RS article. There are supporting articles published already. One of them cites comments by UVA women, some who are coming forward for the first time. Another is an interview of sorts with Liz Seccoro (spelling?), the woman who prosecuted and won the rape case against a man in the same fraternity, in 1984. I did not know that she also was gang raped. There were 3 of them. Apparently, this particular frat. has a history of multiple men involved. The young woman has no chance of escaping with 2 or 3 men holding her down.
It makes me feel sick to type that.

Of course, JLM was aware that many people in authority were, in effect, approving of rape in his immediate environment. People that are usually admired/respected. I have no doubt it fueled his intentions.

Did anyone read the lyrics to the Rugby song! My question is why have not the women protested? It is as demeaning to women as many of the misogynist rap lyrics.

 

[whonos]

Excuse me, there have been protests... http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2010/12/from-rugby-road-to-vinegar-hill/

 

[MJPeony]

I think it is a result of the media frenzy surrounding the RS article. There are supporting articles published already. One of them cites comments by UVA women, some who are coming forward for the first time. Another is an interview of sorts with Liz Seccoro (spelling?), the woman who prosecuted and won the rape case against a man in the same fraternity, in 1984. I did not know that she also was gang raped. There were 3 of them. Apparently, this particular frat. has a history of multiple men involved. The young woman has no chance of escaping with 2 or 3 men holding her down.
It makes me feel sick to type that.

Of course, JLM was aware that many people in authority were, in effect, approving of rape in his immediate environment. People that are usually admired/respected. I have no doubt it fueled his intentions.

Did anyone read the lyrics to the Rugby song! My question is why have not the women protested? It is as demeaning to women as many of the misogynist rap lyrics.

I am an undergraduate alum, and I have never- ever- heard the raunchy verses. I'm not denying they exist (clearly they do), but I'm just saying I never heard them. If I had, I most certainly would have protested/been upset. From the comment section of that Cav Daily article it appears a lot of other alums didn't know the extent of those gross verses either. The chorus about drinking I'd heard and the tune by the Pep Band.

 

[whonos]

I am an undergraduate alum, and I have never- ever- heard the raunchy verses. I'm not denying they exist (clearly they do), but I'm just saying I never heard them. If I had, I most certainly would have protested/been upset. From the comment section of that Cav Daily article it appears a lot of other alums didn't know the extent of those gross verses either. The chorus about drinking I'd heard and the tune by the Pep Band.

I did not realize that the lyrics were not known by all until I read about the protests. The RS article published them as if they were set in stone and sung regularly, or that was my assumption

I wonder, MJ, did you know that they existed? I thought I read something that said frat houses were singing the sexually violent lyrics when people were partying in the streets or something. Very honestly, had I heard them in a crowd I probably would not have listened closely enough to realize what they were actually saying, because who says stuff like that? Who thinks like that? People like JLM, of course, but not the nice guy that grew up next door, best friends with your brother.
I was in college so long ago that, if women were being raped, I never heard about it. When I returned to grad school it was at NYU where only 7% are involved in Greek life. I just checked the stats and for 2013, only nine rapes were reported in buildings designated as dorms or academic. (NYC actually has a low incidence of rape).

So this is new information for me and I am left thinking how brave all of you young women are, to attend college at all.:takeabow:

 

[MJPeony]

I did not realize that the lyrics were not known by all until I read about the protests. The RS article published them as if they were set in stone and sung regularly, or that was my assumption

I wonder, MJ, did you know that they existed? I thought I read something that said frat houses were singing the sexually violent lyrics when people were partying in the streets or something. Very honestly, had I heard them in a crowd I probably would not have listened closely enough to realize what they were actually saying, because who says stuff like that? Who thinks like that? People like JLM, of course, but not the nice guy that grew up next door, best friends with your brother.
I was in college so long ago that, if women were being raped, I never heard about it. When I returned to grad school it was at NYU where only 7% are involved in Greek life. I just checked the stats and for 2013, only nine rapes were reported in buildings designated as dorms or academic. (NYC actually has a low incidence of rape).

So this is new information for me and I am left thinking how brave all of you young women are, to attend college at all.:takeabow:

Well, I'm pretty confused by some of the comments about this song in the RS article. Namely the part where they say the Virginia Gentlemen (oldest male a cappella group at UVa) sing it. I have a really hard time understanding that and would have to see where the reporter/author got this information. I was in an a cappella group counterpart to the VG's and that is just not something the VG's would ever go around singing. No no no.... (all MO obviously based on experience). So I'm perplexed.

And no whonos, I didn't know these lyrics existed. And I didn't live under a rock, so I can't say that I'd be alone.

I guess what I'm saying is that clearly these lyrics of explicit nasty lyrics exist, but I feel the article makes it sound like it's a common theme song and rallying cry for the University community. Portrayed as if it's a known thing and UVa students either enjoy singing it, laugh about it, or at best/worst, shrug it off and move along. And that's just not true based on my experience. Whoever came up with and sings these verses must be part of a sad fray of individuals I personally never socialized with or knew about.

 

[ksj3]

Well, I'm pretty confused by some of the comments about this song in the RS article. Namely the part where they say the Virginia Gentlemen (oldest male a cappella group at UVa) sing it. I have a really hard time understanding that and would have to see where the reporter/author got this information. I was in an a cappella group counterpart to the VG's and that is just not something the VG's would ever go around singing. No no no.... (all MO obviously based on experience). So I'm perplexed.

And no whonos, I didn't know these lyrics existed. And I didn't live under a rock, so I can't say that I'd be alone.

I guess what I'm saying is that clearly these lyrics of explicit nasty lyrics exist, but I feel the article makes it sound like it's a common theme song and rallying cry for the University community. Portrayed as if it's a known thing and UVa students either enjoy singing it, laugh about it, or at best/worst, shrug it off and move along. And that's just not true based on my experience. Whoever came up with and sings these verses must be part of a sad fray of individuals I personally never socialized with or knew about.

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2010/12/from-rugby-road-to-vinegar-hill/

This article, about the song and how it was not played at a pregame show for the first time in 2010 (since 2003) might be of interest. It was removed because of the claim that its lyrics promoted sexual assault. However, the lyrics in the RS article aren't the ones commonly sung.

The comments, though, (from 2010) are interesting in today's light.

Wikia talks about the Virginia Glee Club singing it since the late 1940's/early 1950's, here: http://virginiagleeclub.wikia.com/wiki/From_Rugby_Road_to_Vinegar_Hill

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

According to these links, it is possible to detect exposure to drugs with forensic tests on skeletal remains:


The Use of Forensic Anthropology
books.google.com/books?id=V0JheWC85h4C&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=toxicology+on+skeletal+remains&source=bl&ots=PSWhiuJlhA&sig=8QbKqTY8W6B67jJW8-z1PgU3FqI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-bVyVLvKOfHksAT0_YGwCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=toxicology%20on%20skeletal%20remains&f=false

Drugs in Bone and Bone Marrow
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-59745-318-9_8#page-2

I think this is interesting, since one of my theories is that HG was drugged before leaving The Corner area.

 

[MJPeony]

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/article/2010/12/from-rugby-road-to-vinegar-hill/

This article, about the song and how it was not played at a pregame show for the first time in 2010 (since 2003) might be of interest. It was removed because of the claim that its lyrics promoted sexual assault. However, the lyrics in the RS article aren't the ones commonly sung.

The comments, though, (from 2010) are interesting in today's light.

Wikia talks about the Virginia Glee Club singing it since the late 1940's/early 1950's, here: http://virginiagleeclub.wikia.com/wiki/From_Rugby_Road_to_Vinegar_Hill

Thanks, yes I read that cavdaily article as well. I can't find where the article states that the song was recently removed b/c of lyrics promoting sexual assault though. And yes, the RS printed lyrics aren't the ones that most students sang. From that article:

"Campbell said she does not believe a majority of students know more than the chorus, which refers only to drinking.

"There are some student organizations which pride themselves on their knowledge of the additional verses, but that knowledge is not the norm," she said."

The chorus words are stated as: "From Rugby Road to Vinegar Hill, / We're gonna get drunk tonight. / The faculty's afraid of us; / They know we're in the right. / So fill up your cups, your loving cups, / As full as full can be / As long as love and liquor last, / We'll drink to the U of V."

Granted, that's an obnoxious chorus to say the least. But it's really not the same as the following despicable verses that were published in RS. It's upsetting to think that those verses are being portrayed as the "anthem" of UVa. It's not.

So, since this is about HG I'm trying to make sense of how we got here, and I can, but things are starting to slide into different paths I think. HG was a UVa student, HG was abducted, raped (we assume) and murdered. MH was abducted, raped and murdered on UVa grounds (but was not a UVa student). And UVa is now in the news again regarding campus rapes. But I want to remind/point out that JLM never went to UVa. And he was not in a UVa fraternity. In fact, the only connection he had to UVa was working there in the hospital as an orderly of sorts. And that's not, in my book, a member of UVa culture or community as is now being discussed. And JLM is the one responsible (assumed I think) for both MH and HG. It's JLM, not a fraternity brother or a UVa student.

Anyway, while I'm obviously glad that anything that could potentially be a systemic problem with a fraternity culture on Grounds is being not only investigated, but aggressively pursued for change, I'm saddened that JLM's seemingly single-handed murders have gotten twisted up in this. I personally believe they are relatively separate, and both of which are heartbreaking, situations. But JLM was his own monster. Until we find that to be proven differently. I don't believe at this juncture that JLM went to frat parties or "fraternized" with many UVa students to be honest. Sorry, kind of getting OT, but I'm just fed up and disgusted with JLM for a lot of reasons right now.

MOO

 

[Ollie]

According to these links, it is possible to detect exposure to drugs with forensic tests on skeletal remains:


The Use of Forensic Anthropology
books.google.com/books?id=V0JheWC85h4C&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=toxicology+on+skeletal+remains&source=bl&ots=PSWhiuJlhA&sig=8QbKqTY8W6B67jJW8-z1PgU3FqI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-bVyVLvKOfHksAT0_YGwCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAjgU#v=onepage&q=toxicology%20on%20skeletal%20remains&f=false

Drugs in Bone and Bone Marrow
http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-59745-318-9_8#page-2

I think this is interesting, since one of my theories is that HG was drugged before leaving The Corner area.

Interesting,I'm wondering how long drugs have to be in a victims system ,to be found in the bone marrow. In HG's case,we don't know how long after abduction she was alive;so would the drug metabolize fast enough to be absorbed into the marrow? I'm guessing that each drug's half life would have to be taken into account.It will be interesting if bone marrow testing is done to see if our theory of HG being drugged pans out.

 

[4MYGUYS]

Interesting,I'm wondering how long drugs have to be in a victims system ,to be found in the bone marrow. In HG's case,we don't know how long after abduction she was alive;so would the drug metabolize fast enough to be absorbed into the marrow? I'm guessing that each drug's half life would have to be taken into account.It will be interesting if bone marrow testing is done to see if our theory of HG being drugged pans out.

There was quite a lot of discussion way back in these threads on this topic, and you probably can find some quoted sources researching. I believe the consensus was that if she was murdered shortly after the abduction (within a day or so), that the typical drugs would not be found in bone or hair. JMHO

 

[R.U.Kidding!]

IMOO--

When there has been an unlawful act perpetrated by a Fraternity or Sorority, and it has been proven fact. That Fraternity (or Sorority) should be abolished!
The pressure on these universities come from influential contributors to the university who Themselves belonged to same Fraternity their sons do. Therefore until MONEY is taken out of the equation the cover-ups will continue---"Whatever happens behind Fraternity Walls stays there" If there are no Fraternity's.....well that umbrella of entitlement for bad behavior and sometimes criminal ,closes up.

Why these Greek establishments are even still in existence today is beyond me--they have always been the protective shield of college culture out of control.

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

There was quite a lot of discussion way back in these threads on this topic, and you probably can find some quoted sources researching. I believe the consensus was that if she was murdered shortly after the abduction (within a day or so), that the typical drugs would not be found in bone or hair. JMHO

I missed that discussion...hope to be able to find it. Thanks...

 

[Evie Ivy Over]

Interesting,I'm wondering how long drugs have to be in a victims system ,to be found in the bone marrow. In HG's case,we don't know how long after abduction she was alive;so would the drug metabolize fast enough to be absorbed into the marrow? I'm guessing that each drug's half life would have to be taken into account.It will be interesting if bone marrow testing is done to see if our theory of HG being drugged pans out.

I'm definitely no scientist, but I found this information about Ketamine:

A variety of drugs have been determined in skeletal tissues, including members of the opiates (e.g., morphine, 6-acetylmorphine), benzodiazepines (e.g., flurazepam, midazolam), and tricyclic antidepressants.

Ketamine is a valuable candidate to add to this catalog of drugs that may be detected in skeletal tissues. Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic with fewer adverse side effects compared with the structurally and pharmacologically similar compound phencyclidine. Ketamine is used recreationally and has been implicated in cases of drug-facilitated sexual assault.

Ketamine hydrochloride is a racemic mixture manufactured as a white crystalline powder and is dissolved in water for medical use in anesthesia for short diagnostic and surgical procedures.

Ketamine is a weakly basic compound with a moderate volume of distribution and it has been shown to significantly partition into the brain and liver of humans. In humans, ketamine is rapidly distributed, and has a relatively short elimination half-life of 2–4 h.

http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ow_following_acute_administration_using_ELISA

 

[Charlie Chan]

IMO....I don't think that JLM's actions with HG, MH or Fairfax Rape/Attempted Murder Victim had anything at all to do with UVa and the Fraternity culture there. While it gives us something to ponder/discuss (as we have relatively no new info re: HG case), I just don't see it being related at all and am wondering if we need a "Uva Frat Culture" separate thread? Just askin' !

 

[Conductor71]

Interesting,I'm wondering how long drugs have to be in a victims system ,to be found in the bone marrow. In HG's case,we don't know how long after abduction she was alive;so would the drug metabolize fast enough to be absorbed into the marrow? I'm guessing that each drug's half life would have to be taken into account.It will be interesting if bone marrow testing is done to see if our theory of HG being drugged pans out.

I think half life definitely counts. This source says that...

Extended delays in collecting specimens from DFSAs may reduce the probability of detecting drugs potentially used to facilitate a sexual assault. Most of the drugs typically used in the facilitation of sexual assaults are rapidly absorbed and metabolized by the body, thereby rendering them difficult to detect in routine urine and blood drug screenings

The researchers (who happen to be employees of UVA) suggest that drug testing the victim's hair may actually be preferred:

Analysis of drugs present in hair can offer several advantages over urine and blood specimens in specific cases. The window of drug detection may
be extended from days to weeks and even months because of the stability of the drug once it is deposited [26]...Drugs in hair are usually present in low concentrations (pg/mg to ng/mg); therefore, sensitive laboratory methods are required for detection [28–30].

I wonder if the FBI has been involved in the autopsy forensics at all? I would expect Albemarle county would not be able to do specialized toxicology tests on their own.

Source: Criminal poisoning: drug facilitated sexual assault