Happenings of December 26

[WhereAreTheyNow]

This is why DocG's theory is obvious nonsense, its a theory about what might have taken place, not what happened. As such it sends people down the wrong road.

@UKGuy: I disagree with DocG's theory and challenged him a while back on his blog. Have you?

 

[Chrishope]

@UKGuy: I disagree with DocG's theory and challenged him a while back on his blog. Have you?

Interesting, because your recent analysis of the RN seemed like it pretty much tracked the Doc theory of the case. On what points do you differ?

 

[Nom de plume]

Only if they find them.


Which planet do you post from? A gift tagged JonBenet, or a gift tagged Burke Ramsey, even a gift tagged Patricia Ramsey. Any observer might want to look beyond an abduction?


If you carefully examine the forensic evidence, instead of relying on logic, postmortem analysis etc, you will recognise there was minimally two staging events. So the R's without having to stand in front of anyone and say, we moved JonBenet from her bedroom to the basement, the ransom note stands in for that role. Its that simple, no need for a DocG conspiracy theory, its all good style americana pragmatism at work!

Someone in the R household woke up one morning to find JonBenet dead in bed, probably JR. JonBenet had already been staged, so whats to do? Leave well alone, dial 911, or move stuff around so to minimise any forensic liabilities?

This is why DocG's theory is obvious nonsense, its a theory about what might have taken place, not what happened. As such it sends people down the wrong road.


.

Finally!! You admit logic has nothing to do with your theory! :scared:

DocG's theory is only nonsense to someone unable to think logically.

 

[Chelly]

We've gone over the body/suitcase thing many times. Her livor mortis pattern proves that she was not placed anywhere else. And rigor mortis would have prevented her from being folded into ANYTHING as it progressed. Had she been put in the suitcase first, there would be TWO livor patterns and had rigor developed while she was still there, she would not have been able to be straightened out without breaking rigor. It was not broken when she was found. You are all welcome to play out any scenario about suitcases, freezers, etc. but science will always win. She was never in the suitcase after death. She was placed on her back, legs straight, head cocked to the right, within 10-20 minutes of death. And that is how she remained until she was found.

Sorry, I only asked if the body of a six-year old could fit into the Samsonite because I wondered if JR might have considered placing JB's body inside to remove it from the house. I don't think I implied that she had already been in the suitcase. I will continue to just lurk.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry, I only asked if the body of a six-year old could fit into the Samsonite because I wondered if JR might have considered placing JB's body inside to remove it from the house. I don't think I implied that she had already been in the suitcase. I will continue to just lurk.

Chelly,
He might have. He might also have thought about leaving the suitcase, with JonBenet inside, somewhere else in the basement.

JR did move stuff around in the basement, he had various explanations about why things were arranged in a particular way. He says he moved the suitcase, like PR on the size-12's, JR did not know about the suitcase's contents.

So there was something going on with the suitcase, its probably an abandonded item from some staged scenario?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Finally!! You admit logic has nothing to do with your theory! :scared:

DocG's theory is only nonsense to someone unable to think logically.

Nom de plume,
DocG's theory exploits logic with its reliance on the body and the Ransom Note being present to conclude someone really intended to dump JonBenet outdoors, but was foiled.

Then there are all the little invented factoids, i.e. JR wrote the ransom note, it all adds up to a convoluted RDI theory, that defies logic.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Sorry, I only asked if the body of a six-year old could fit into the Samsonite because I wondered if JR might have considered placing JB's body inside to remove it from the house. I don't think I implied that she had already been in the suitcase. I will continue to just lurk.

Chelly, don't just lurk. We can always use some fresh perceptions here.

http://www.geocities.com/astrospy/suitcase.jpg

Here is that diagram. She might fit, if someone really knew how to do "origami" on a dead body. I don't know that it's to correct scale, I think the point is simply that her arms and legs would need to be folded into weird positions.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Interesting, because your recent analysis of the RN seemed like it pretty much tracked the Doc theory of the case. On what points do you differ?

I believe PR wrote the note when there was a tentative plan to remove the body. It makes absolutely no sense to me for JR, PR or a 'foreign faction' to write the note and leave the body to be found. Disclaimer: I readily admit the theories below are remote possibilities.

Maybe BR woke up at 5:30 and screwed up the plan the plan. This may be consistent with JR telling him to go back to bed (my idea) and, on the way upstairs, BR asks "But what did you find?"

or

Maybe the parents had arranged for an accomplice to move the body but something went wrong and JR realized the problem when he went down to basement before noon.

or

PR panicked over not having a proper burial. We will likely never know.

 

[CircuitGuy]

If they called friends and police, who they knew would search the house, isn't putting things in the WC the same as putting them in immediate public view?

Only if they find them.

It is very likely police would find a body hidden the WC, so it is in fact the same. So I don't see why you say they moved evidence to the WC to get them out of plain view.

Why would partially-opened holiday gifts raise questions? The presence of partially-opened holiday gifts around the winter holidays seems perfectly normal to me. What could they possibly have to do with a murder?

Which planet do you post from? A gift tagged JonBenet, or a gift tagged Burke Ramsey, even a gift tagged Patricia Ramsey. Any observer might want to look beyond an abduction?

Any observer would want to look beyond an abduction regardless of the gifts and what's on the tags. I don't understand your guess about what the gifts or tags might mean. I do not see how the gifts are suspicious at all.

I might see it if you told me. Saying you think it's obvious does not tell me anything.

 

[Chrishope]

I believe PR wrote the note when there was a tentative plan to remove the body. It makes absolutely no sense to me for JR, PR or a 'foreign faction' to write the note and leave the body to be found. Disclaimer: I readily admit the theories below are remote possibilities.

I agree. The note makes no sense with the body present.

If you think PR wrote the note that raises a few questions -

-Why do you think she wrote it?
-Why did she agree to write it? Is this a BDI theory? Or is she willing to cover for JR? Something else?
-Why did she call 911, knowing the body is in the basement, if, as we seem to agree, it makes no sense to have the RN and the body in the house?

Maybe BR woke up at 5:30 and screwed up the plan the plan. This may be consistent with JR telling him to go back to bed (my idea) and, on the way upstairs, BR asks "But what did you find?"

If the plan is still roughly the same as the Doc theory, then he could be sent back to bed, or stay up until it's time to go to a friends house. The rest of the plan can be carried out, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible)

Maybe the parents had arranged for an accomplice to move the body but something went wrong and JR realized the problem when he went down to basement before noon.

Very interesting. That would make sense. PR calls because she thinks the body has been taken care of. It's also very interesting that the RN works pretty much the same way as in the DOC theory, even though PR/JR are co-conspirators.

Why, do you think, did JR go down into the basement? Just to make sure other evidence was taken care of?

If he did discover the body was still there, he obviously could not find it and bring it up at that time. Later Det. Arendt would give him the perfect excuse to find it.

PR panicked over not having a proper burial. We will likely never know.

Well, certainly it's possible. My feeling is that PR, if guilty of involvement, does not have any qualms at all about not having a proper burial. I think that language in the RN was to keep PR from calling the police - which only applies if she's not involved.

You have come up with some interesting ways of looking at this case. I'd be very interested in hearing more details of your theory, if you've developed it far enough to have more details.

 

[WhereAreTheyNow]

I agree. The note makes no sense with the body present.

If you think PR wrote the note that raises a few questions -

-Why do you think she wrote it?
-Why did she agree to write it? Is this a BDI theory? Or is she willing to cover for JR? Something else?

I certainly don’t have this thing figured out. I am embarrassed to admit that 2 or 3 months ago I was IDI. I fell for the Ramsey propaganda hook, line and sinker.

Having read Kolar’s book (twice) and now halfway through Thomas’ book, I changed to JR and PR conspired – even though Kolar clearly believes BDI. Both of these books are great resources to tie everything together even though 90% of the information is public knowledge.

Why did she write it (paraphrased by me)?

I guess, either she did it or she wasn’t willing to lose JR (either to jail or divorce).

If the plan is still roughly the same as the Doc theory, then he could be sent back to bed, or stay up until it's time to go to a friends house. The rest of the plan can be carried out, unless I'm missing something (which is quite possible)

But what if BR really disrupted the plan – e.g. walked up on PR writing the RN, or overheard mom and dad discussing sordid details about the murder and/or plans to cover up.

Why, do you think, did JR go down into the basement? Just to make sure other evidence was taken care of?

Yes – and to (a) verify the body was moved by the accomplice and/or (b) working on Plan B.

You have come up with some interesting ways of looking at this case. I'd be very interested in hearing more details of your theory, if you've developed it far enough to have more details.

Thanks. I have monitored these threads for quite a while and believe that some unusually gifted and knowledgeable sleuths regularly contribute, unlike many ‘random guessers’ in some other case threads. I am really just trying to offer different angles and conclusions. But after 16 ½ years of discussion, I doubt any of my ideas are original.

 

[Chrishope]

I certainly don’t have this thing figured out. I am embarrassed to admit that 2 or 3 months ago I was IDI. I fell for the Ramsey propaganda hook, line and sinker.

It's nothing to be embarrassed about. There is touch dna, unsourced tan fibers, no parental history of abuse, then of course LS.

Having read Kolar’s book (twice) and now halfway through Thomas’ book, I changed to JR and PR conspired – even though Kolar clearly believes BDI. Both of these books are great resources to tie everything together even though 90% of the information is public knowledge.

I guess I'll have to by Kolar's book though I hate to spend the money.

I guess, either she did it or she wasn’t willing to lose JR (either to jail or divorce).

But what if BR really disrupted the plan – e.g. walked up on PR writing the RN, or overheard mom and dad discussing sordid details about the murder and/or plans to cover up.

Well, that's not much different than BDI.

Yes – and to (a) verify the body was moved by the accomplice and/or (b) working on Plan B.

Thanks. I have monitored these threads for quite a while and believe that some unusually gifted and knowledgeable sleuths regularly contribute, unlike many ‘random guessers’ in some other case threads. I am really just trying to offer different angles and conclusions. But after 16 ½ years of discussion, I doubt any of my ideas are original.

Well, the ideas might be new here. I appreciate the different angles.

 

[UKGuy]

It is very likely police would find a body hidden the WC, so it is in fact the same. So I don't see why you say they moved evidence to the WC to get them out of plain view.




Any observer would want to look beyond an abduction regardless of the gifts and what's on the tags. I don't understand your guess about what the gifts or tags might mean. I do not see how the gifts are suspicious at all.

I might see it if you told me. Saying you think it's obvious does not tell me anything.

CircuitGuy,

So I don't see why you say they moved evidence to the WC to get them out of plain view.

Because the R's were cleaning up a prior crime-scene. They wanted to disconnect any critical forensic evidence from some location upstairs, probably JonBenet's bedroom.

Placing it into the wine-cellar serves to hide and relocate the forensic evidence. Even if it is found putting all the pieces of the jigsaw back together might be very difficult.

I do not see how the gifts are suspicious at all.

Thats fine. I reckon where they were located is suspicious, and that they have been partially opened, allegedly by the Lady of Gift Wrapping herself PR!

.

 

[gramcracker]

I read this forum a lot but never post because there's so much to read that it seems like I'll never get caught up and feel informed. my question is what do most people here think about the date of death on the headstone? given a choice of Dec 25 or Dec 26, who in their right mind would choose Christmas Day for the date of their child's death? is that thought to be a "tell" re when JonBenet died?

my mom died on my birthday but the doctor didn't show up to pronounce until after midnight and I've always been glad that "the date" is not my birthday but the following day, KWIM?

 

[Nom de plume]

I read this forum a lot but never post because there's so much to read that it seems like I'll never get caught up and feel informed. my question is what do most people here think about the date of death on the headstone? given a choice of Dec 25 or Dec 26, who in their right mind would choose Christmas Day for the date of their child's death? is that thought to be a "tell" re when JonBenet died?

my mom died on my birthday but the doctor didn't show up to pronounce until after midnight and I've always been glad that "the date" is not my birthday but the following day, KWIM?

Hi gramcracker! Glad you decided to post.

JR said they chose that day so that people would remember "the world went crazy on Christmas" what ever that's supposed to mean. I see two possibilities. 1. She really died on Christmas and they know it. or 2. They think they'll get more public sympathy if it happened on Christmas rather than the day after.

Sorry about your mother. How awful that must have been for you on your birthday.

 

[gramcracker]

OK, thank you for the explanation and for your kind words :seeya:

 

[midwest mama]

I read this forum a lot but never post because there's so much to read that it seems like I'll never get caught up and feel informed. my question is what do most people here think about the date of death on the headstone? given a choice of Dec 25 or Dec 26, who in their right mind would choose Christmas Day for the date of their child's death? is that thought to be a "tell" re when JonBenet died?

my mom died on my birthday but the doctor didn't show up to pronounce until after midnight and I've always been glad that "the date" is not my birthday but the following day, KWIM?

BBM

You have it exactly right, gramcracker. What becomes increasingly more clear as we look at the evidence over and over on this case, is that at least one of those parents, if not both, were not in their right minds when JB was killed. It is very possible the blow to JB's head was dealt before midnight, and the responsible R knew this would have brought death to her, even if the ligature had not been used as the final measure.

Since JR admitted he chose that date for her headstone, it only convinces me further that he had a vendetta to present. IMO, he wanted anyone who saw that headstone to suffer with him. His greatest reasoning for so much of his personal anguish in life, according to his book "The Other Side of Suffering" was because he considered so many things in his life to be "unfair".

JB's death was unfair, and it came at a time that was the most unfair day of all for it to have happened. And in his state of mind, he wasn't about to let anyone forget it.

 

[DeeDee249]

JR had said that he and Patsy chose Dec 25th as her death date so that "the world will remember what "it" did to JB on Christmas Day" (his words).

Right. The world DOES remember- what her FAMILY did to her on Christmas Day.

 

[renah]

Ok. I'm going out on a limb here but imo

I can see jr being so grief striken over his older daughter's death that a dark little voice began speaking to him in his head.

It said Why god did you take my daughter so unfairly?

THIS new girl is supposed to balance the books? She does NOT compare, God. "

With that much "entitled" righteous anger, I wonder if he just was not capable of bonding with his youngest, newest daughter in any sort of real, parental way...

As punitive a person as he seems to me to be, maybe his overblown superego would not allow him a normal bond.

Loving JonBenet (in any sort of healthy way) might feel like a betrayal to his other daughter's memory. I can see this distorted bond causing him to do the things that SOMEone did to JB -- the chronic sexual abuse, and then on one of the most important days of christianity, that same sick voice decided to offer her up in some twisted kind of what, payment? retribution?

All of course my own opinions, & obviously wont solve the question of which rdi. Mods feel free to delete this if it is not appropriate.

However, Ive known more than my share of people who really do think this way.

 

[madeleine]

Ok. I'm going out on a limb here but imo

I can see jr being so grief striken over his older daughter's death that a dark little voice began speaking to him in his head.

It said Why god did you take my daughter so unfairly?

THIS new girl is supposed to balance the books? She does NOT compare, God. "

With that much "entitled" righteous anger, I wonder if he just was not capable of bonding with his youngest, newest daughter in any sort of real, parental way...

As punitive a person as he seems to me to be, maybe his overblown superego would not allow him a normal bond.

Loving JonBenet (in any sort of healthy way) might feel like a betrayal to his other daughter's memory. I can see this distorted bond causing him to do the things that SOMEone did to JB -- the chronic sexual abuse, and then on one of the most important days of christianity, that same sick voice decided to offer her up in some twisted kind of what, payment? retribution?

All of course my own opinions, & obviously wont solve the question of which rdi. Mods feel free to delete this if it is not appropriate.

However, Ive known more than my share of people who really do think this way.

religious views (and how JR INTERPRETS it) and Beth's death played a role in all this....cause IMO her death changed JR completely....many parents tend to compare unfortunately....look at how he talks about Beth...she was the PERFECT daughter ("she raised me" ,his words)...perfect student....what was JB?the beauty queen,make up and glitter and tiaras...?