Happenings of December 26

[Nom de plume]

Ok. I'm going out on a limb here but imo

I can see jr being so grief striken over his older daughter's death that a dark little voice began speaking to him in his head.

It said Why god did you take my daughter so unfairly?

THIS new girl is supposed to balance the books? She does NOT compare, God. "

With that much "entitled" righteous anger, I wonder if he just was not capable of bonding with his youngest, newest daughter in any sort of real, parental way...

As punitive a person as he seems to me to be, maybe his overblown superego would not allow him a normal bond.

Loving JonBenet (in any sort of healthy way) might feel like a betrayal to his other daughter's memory. I can see this distorted bond causing him to do the things that SOMEone did to JB -- the chronic sexual abuse, and then on one of the most important days of christianity, that same sick voice decided to offer her up in some twisted kind of what, payment? retribution?

All of course my own opinions, & obviously wont solve the question of which rdi. Mods feel free to delete this if it is not appropriate.

However, Ive known more than my share of people who really do think this way.

I agree with most of what you have to say here. I don't know that he was compaing Beth & JB and finding JB lacking though. It's been rumored that Beth told friends at college that she was molested by JR too. This was after she tried to commit suicide, and was in therapy. Personally, from his own description of his relationship with Beth, I find the rumors to most likely be true. Keeping your dead daughter's picture in your personal bathroom is just bizarre and creepy. He didn't just become attracted to little girls overnight at middle age. If he was molesting one daughter, why not the other(s) too? I don't think JR is capable of bonding with anyone, in any normal way.

I do think Beth's death messed with his head though. He was, sorry, is so full of himself that he can't get over how unfair everything is to him. As to whether or not her murder was a payment, or retribution, I don't think it was. IMO it was a molestation that spiraled way out of control, and JB ended up dead.

:twocents:

 

[madeleine]

http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/john-ramsey-on-surviving-jonbenet-tragedy-finding-faith/


JR:"Perhaps the ultimate penalty for such a killer is to have to look at himself in the mirror each day and know that he can’t just end it all."



I wanted to comment a bit but I'd rather just leave it....the quote speaks for itself...

 

[madeleine]

DAVID: You survived a tidal wave of media that tried to convict you and your wife Patsy. Now, years later, there is no question: The suspicions of you were tragically misguided. But does everyone know this news? Do you still feel you’re living under a cloud?

JOHN: There’s still a bit of a cloud that I don’t think will ever go away—even if the killer is caught and convicted and imprisoned. There always will be an element of people who believe we’re guilty. The Bible talks about dealing with people like that who are fools and says we should just steer clear of them. That’s what I try to do. But it’s there sometimes. Just the other day, I remember looking into the face of a stranger I encountered and thinking: What does this person think of me? Are they coming with suspicion? I remember from marketing, years ago, that companies can do product surveys even on great products and they will get down to where maybe 3 percent of respondents still say that product is junk. The truth is: That’s as good as it gets. The haters are always out there.


the arrogance.....

 

[madeleine]

http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/spiritual-truths-behind-the-medias-jonbenet-ramsey-tale/

this is :floorlaugh: on the other hand.....

First, let’s be clear about the facts: The question of the Ramseys’ innocence now is carved in granite. New DNA science has ruled them out. Police have publicly apologized to them. Oprah has hosted an exonerating special broadcast. There is no question: Rather than horrific parents who killed their own child, the Ramseys truly were innocents trapped in a tale like Hitchcock’s “Wrong Man.”

but thank God he says he's done writing books :seeya:

he goes on and on and on talking about faith and forgiveness and God but if you read between the lines it becomes so obvious how mean and arrogant he is!

 

[madeleine]

so following the evidence makes you a fool and turns you into a hater or junk according to this gentleman...but LYING is okay,it makes you a good Christian,right?when exactly did POLICE apologize to them?their innocence is carved in granite my @$$.he's a manipulative ,mean but very clever (dangerous combo IMO) liar.period.

 

[renah]

JR just cant keep his mouth closed, apparently.

Kind of like the arsonist who has to watch his handiwork burn, or the not-yet-suspected criminal who calls the police to offer his help...

 

[questfortrue]

so following the evidence makes you a fool and turns you into a hater or junk according to this gentleman...but LYING is okay,it makes you a good Christian,right?when exactly did POLICE apologize to them?their innocence is carved in granite my @$$.he's a manipulative ,mean but very clever (dangerous combo IMO) liar.period.

JR brings Christian faith to the table as the ultimate proof of his innocence. Again, from the Christian Broadcasting program 700 Club:
SCOTT: Everyone has their opinion, and even for me, I have to go through my own internal process to come to a place I could be objective and talk to you and not be taken in by deception, that your lying to me, that your pulling it off. There is one side of this is, that your not just lying to me you are sitting before God. You are saying you believe in God. When I read this book I’m going whoa, there is another level of accountability here.
JOHN: It is the only level of accountability that matters.
SCOTT: This is not an accusation, but I’m going to say it to you? I was reading through this and I said there is one other couple in the New Testament that I remembered who lied and their names are Ananias and Sapphira.
JOHN: I’m not that good of a Bible student - I don’t know them.
SCOTT: Well, they lied to Peter -- the apostle Peter -- and they fell dead, and he said to them, you did not just lie to me, you lied to the Holy Spirit.
JOHN: We are very, very comfortable being accountable to the God of the Universe.
SCOTT: Because someday you have to stand before Him.
JOHN: Absolutely.
MHO All of his religious statements point to a guilt so deeply imbedded in him, I doubt that JR is even capable of confessing to himself, let alone God, his role in the household the night of JB’s homicide. He totally believes himself.

 

[madeleine]

I THINK I understand now....he says in that interview that Patsy was the religious one in the family...he became one after Beth's death...so he says...IMO he's not religious but delusional.

IMO Patsy's beliefs were REAL...she was a cancer patient...it happens to lots of them in such a sad situation,especially when the foundation is there.IMO it's the reason she was able to FORGIVE HIM for whatever it was he did.her forgiveness was real.

what HE talks about though is something TOTALLY different IMO.it's ALL in his head,it's wishful thinking.the way he sometimes talks about what the "real" killer deserves...excuses...made up for HIMSELF....there are lots of examples ,even in his LE interviews...you're too stupid to judge me,you have no right only God does,something to that effect....he just interprets it like he wants...he makes me sick

 

[Nom de plume]

http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/john-ramsey-on-surviving-jonbenet-tragedy-finding-faith/


JR:"Perhaps the ultimate penalty for such a killer is to have to look at himself in the mirror each day and know that he can’t just end it all."



I wanted to comment a bit but I'd rather just leave it....the quote speaks for itself...

Funny, JR talked about wanting to "end it all" after Beth's death. Wonder what he sees now when he looks in the mirror each day?

 

[madeleine]

Funny, JR talked about wanting to "end it all" after Beth's death. Wonder what he sees now when he looks in the mirror each day?

the person he loves the most

 

[UKGuy]

I THINK I understand now....he says in that interview that Patsy was the religious one in the family...he became one after Beth's death...so he says...IMO he's not religious but delusional.

IMO Patsy's beliefs were REAL...she was a cancer patient...it happens to lots of them in such a sad situation,especially when the foundation is there.IMO it's the reason she was able to FORGIVE HIM for whatever it was he did.her forgiveness was real.

what HE talks about though is something TOTALLY different IMO.it's ALL in his head,it's wishful thinking.the way he sometimes talks about what the "real" killer deserves...excuses...made up for HIMSELF....there are lots of examples ,even in his LE interviews...you're too stupid to judge me,you have no right only God does,something to that effect....he just interprets it like he wants...he makes me sick

madeleine,
I reckon JR doing the religion thing means he has finally awoken to the truth: he now knows that everyone else knows he was involved.

Playing legal games with attorneys, co-producing documentaries, dumping misinformation on the public can only work for so long.

He reminds me of the convict who takes up religion once incarcerated, all with a view to early parole, except in JR's case he can never free himself of his alleged involvement in the death of JonBenet.

Just consider how it has destroyed his family, only BR will be left shortly. Some legacy that.

This religion thing with JR is alike their version of events its all fake.


.

 

[madeleine]

madeleine,
I reckon JR doing the religion thing means he has finally awoken to the truth: he now knows that everyone else knows he was involved.

Playing legal games with attorneys, co-producing documentaries, dumping misinformation on the public can only work for so long.

He reminds me of the convict who takes up religion once incarcerated, all with a view to early parole, except in JR's case he can never free himself of his alleged involvement in the death of JonBenet.

Just consider how it has destroyed his family, only BR will be left shortly. Some legacy that.

This religion thing with JR is alike their version of events its all fake.


.

great post UK!


he doesn't care much about BR IMO...it's one of the reasons I question the BDI+parents cover-up theory....
you put it right when you said playing games,he just can't stop
what parent of a murdered child admires her killer??he wants forgiveness for the killer (a killer he never looked for)...
he thinks it's up to God to deal with what the killer did,not police.
he admires the killer for how smart he was when leaving all those "funny,little clues"!
I wonder about one thing though...usually these type of people (arrogant,self-centered,know-it-all) want to prove that they are the smartest even if it's a huge risk...will he be able to keep his mouth shut about how "perfect" his plan went til the end?wouldn't it be sad for him to leave this world without people knowing how great he was and how he "outsmarted" everybody?will he resist the temptation?
as far as I am concerned,yep he's annoying,but I am happy he can't keep his big mouth shut!the more he says the more mistakes he's making.

 

[madeleine]

http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/john-ramsey-on-surviving-jonbenet-tragedy-finding-faith/

It took me a long time to write. I’d work on it, then put it away, then work on it some more. Finally, we got it finished. Beyond this, I don’t have anything else to say to the world.

arrogant control freak,HE decides what to say,when to say,how much to say to his audience ...this is what he thinks about the world,that people are his dumb audience.

I've said this before,he's my nr.1 suspect but that doesn't mean I am right.But even if it wasn't him who killed JB he is a very creepy dangerous individual IMO.

 

[madeleine]

"Perhaps the ultimate penalty for such a killer is to have to look at himself in the mirror each day and know that he can’t just end it all"

--

"JOHN RAMSEY: I think, to me, the worst

18 thing that you can do is put a tattoo on his

19 forehead that said, (I'm a child killer,̃ and let

20 him go out in the street.


----------------

basically all these things already happened to him so maybe that soft sweet little voice inside his head tells him he already got his punishment and is free to move on.

 

[Chelly]

After a very long Christmas Day, the Ramsey’s must have returned home that night exhausted. In addition, parents and children needed to rise early on Dec 26 for a 7 a.m. flight to Charlevoix. It seems the Ramsey’s would be wanting a good night’s sleep and would not be considering sex or a tie-up-with-the-rope game at midnight. Thus, Occam’s Razor, or “The Kiss Principle” keeps coming to mind. A scenario I can imagine is this:

The family retires for the night except for Patsy, who finishes packing for the next day’s trip to Charlevoix and subsequent Disney Red Boat cruise. Then, before going to bed herself, she brings JonBenet to potty as is her routine.

BR, who is familiar with the potty routine, waits for Patsy to go bed. (Remember, the children’s bedrooms are not on the same floor as their parents) BR goes down to the kitchen, takes out a bowl of fresh pineapple that has already been sliced by PR. He puts bowl on counter, selects a few pieces and brings them up to JonBenet in her bed; BR knows JB loves pineapple. We know JB ate pineapple shortly before her death as it was discovered in her stomach at autopsy.

BR has a flashlight with him for maneuvering around in the dark and perhaps for providing illumination while playing naughty under the sheets games with JB.

(I think the sexual activity between BR and JB has taken place over a long period of time and has escalated. Touching and probing could have started more than a year earlier when BR learned to apply soothing ointment for JB's diaper rash and JB welcomed the comfort. We know JB didn’t wipe after toilet and called for others to do it for her. It would follow that BR would be among those wiping JB.)

In any case, the sex-play that Christmas night in JB’s bed got out of hand and JB got hurt. Maybe she screamed in pain. Maybe she started crying, saying “I’m Telling” and jumped out of bed. BR, afraid that JB would run to her parents, whacked JB on the head with the flashlight cracking her skull and knocking her unconscious.

Enter PR and JR. They probably tried to revive JB. BR is instructed that Mom and Dad will take care of everything and he is never to speak about what happened.

Wiping off the blood and redressing by PR and JR probably happened in JB’s bedroom. They brought JB down to the WC for further staging with ligature, garrote and broken paint brush handle. Then Patsy wrote the RN. I think their original plan was to remove JB’s body from the house but gave up on that as being too dangerous and complex. So, they called the police. The rest we petty much know.

I have been lurking for ages and hope the experts here will provide input. Please be gentle; this is the first time I’ve offered an opinion.

 

[midwest mama]

After a very long Christmas Day, the Ramsey’s must have returned home that night exhausted. In addition, parents and children needed to rise early on Dec 26 for a 7 a.m. flight to Charlevoix. It seems the Ramsey’s would be wanting a good night’s sleep and would not be considering sex or a tie-up-with-the-rope game at midnight. Thus, Occam’s Razor, or “The Kiss Principle” keeps coming to mind. A scenario I can imagine is this:

The family retires for the night except for Patsy, who finishes packing for the next day’s trip to Charlevoix and subsequent Disney Red Boat cruise. Then, before going to bed herself, she brings JonBenet to potty as is her routine.

BR, who is familiar with the potty routine, waits for Patsy to go bed. (Remember, the children’s bedrooms are not on the same floor as their parents) BR goes down to the kitchen, takes out a bowl of fresh pineapple that has already been sliced by PR. He puts bowl on counter, selects a few pieces and brings them up to JonBenet in her bed; BR knows JB loves pineapple. We know JB ate pineapple shortly before her death as it was discovered in her stomach at autopsy.

BR has a flashlight with him for maneuvering around in the dark and perhaps for providing illumination while playing naughty under the sheets games with JB.

(I think the sexual activity between BR and JB has taken place over a long period of time and has escalated. Touching and probing could have started more than a year earlier when BR learned to apply soothing ointment for JB's diaper rash and JB welcomed the comfort. We know JB didn’t wipe after toilet and called for others to do it for her. It would follow that BR would be among those wiping JB.)

In any case, the sex-play that Christmas night in JB’s bed got out of hand and JB got hurt. Maybe she screamed in pain. Maybe she started crying, saying “I’m Telling” and jumped out of bed. BR, afraid that JB would run to her parents, whacked JB on the head with the flashlight cracking her skull and knocking her unconscious.

Enter PR and JR. They probably tried to revive JB. BR is instructed that Mom and Dad will take care of everything and he is never to speak about what happened.

Wiping off the blood and redressing by PR and JR probably happened in JB’s bedroom. They brought JB down to the WC for further staging with ligature, garrote and broken paint brush handle. Then Patsy wrote the RN. I think their original plan was to remove JB’s body from the house but gave up on that as being too dangerous and complex. So, they called the police. The rest we petty much know.

I have been lurking for ages and hope the experts here will provide input. Please be gentle; this is the first time I’ve offered an opinion.

Chelly - your post is well stated, and if your theory is the correct one, it almost would seem like the Occam's razor answer. And while the outcome was horrible, it would be, IMO the easiest of the many theories to accept.

I would really love to totally agree with you, but I just can't for more reasons than I could ever put here simply in one response. If I ever give up on looking deeper into this case, and stop thinking we should keeping working towards getting an answer one day from either JR or BR, then your theory is the one I will finally hold on to because it provides me with the least disgust for the whole ordeal.

 

[UKGuy]

After a very long Christmas Day, the Ramsey’s must have returned home that night exhausted. In addition, parents and children needed to rise early on Dec 26 for a 7 a.m. flight to Charlevoix. It seems the Ramsey’s would be wanting a good night’s sleep and would not be considering sex or a tie-up-with-the-rope game at midnight. Thus, Occam’s Razor, or “The Kiss Principle” keeps coming to mind. A scenario I can imagine is this:

The family retires for the night except for Patsy, who finishes packing for the next day’s trip to Charlevoix and subsequent Disney Red Boat cruise. Then, before going to bed herself, she brings JonBenet to potty as is her routine.

BR, who is familiar with the potty routine, waits for Patsy to go bed. (Remember, the children’s bedrooms are not on the same floor as their parents) BR goes down to the kitchen, takes out a bowl of fresh pineapple that has already been sliced by PR. He puts bowl on counter, selects a few pieces and brings them up to JonBenet in her bed; BR knows JB loves pineapple. We know JB ate pineapple shortly before her death as it was discovered in her stomach at autopsy.

BR has a flashlight with him for maneuvering around in the dark and perhaps for providing illumination while playing naughty under the sheets games with JB.

(I think the sexual activity between BR and JB has taken place over a long period of time and has escalated. Touching and probing could have started more than a year earlier when BR learned to apply soothing ointment for JB's diaper rash and JB welcomed the comfort. We know JB didn’t wipe after toilet and called for others to do it for her. It would follow that BR would be among those wiping JB.)

In any case, the sex-play that Christmas night in JB’s bed got out of hand and JB got hurt. Maybe she screamed in pain. Maybe she started crying, saying “I’m Telling” and jumped out of bed. BR, afraid that JB would run to her parents, whacked JB on the head with the flashlight cracking her skull and knocking her unconscious.

Enter PR and JR. They probably tried to revive JB. BR is instructed that Mom and Dad will take care of everything and he is never to speak about what happened.

Wiping off the blood and redressing by PR and JR probably happened in JB’s bedroom. They brought JB down to the WC for further staging with ligature, garrote and broken paint brush handle. Then Patsy wrote the RN. I think their original plan was to remove JB’s body from the house but gave up on that as being too dangerous and complex. So, they called the police. The rest we petty much know.

I have been lurking for ages and hope the experts here will provide input. Please be gentle; this is the first time I’ve offered an opinion.

Chelly,
I think your general outline is correct. The details can be interpreted in many ways.

That the pineapple bowl was on the table downstairs, with a spoon in it, probably means JonBenet ate there.

Otherwise the breakfast bar would have been cleaned up, as the R's denied all knowledge of JonBenet snacking pineapple, since the pineapple snack shows Jonbenet was up and walking about contrary to the R's version.

Its more likely JonBenet made it to her bedroom or another and shortly afterwards she was sexually assaulted.

.

 

[Chrishope]

After a very long Christmas Day, the Ramsey’s must have returned home that night exhausted. In addition, parents and children needed to rise early on Dec 26 for a 7 a.m. flight to Charlevoix. It seems the Ramsey’s would be wanting a good night’s sleep and would not be considering sex or a tie-up-with-the-rope game at midnight. Thus, Occam’s Razor, or “The Kiss Principle” keeps coming to mind. A scenario I can imagine is this:

The family retires for the night except for Patsy, who finishes packing for the next day’s trip to Charlevoix and subsequent Disney Red Boat cruise. Then, before going to bed herself, she brings JonBenet to potty as is her routine.

BR, who is familiar with the potty routine, waits for Patsy to go bed. (Remember, the children’s bedrooms are not on the same floor as their parents) BR goes down to the kitchen, takes out a bowl of fresh pineapple that has already been sliced by PR. He puts bowl on counter, selects a few pieces and brings them up to JonBenet in her bed; BR knows JB loves pineapple. We know JB ate pineapple shortly before her death as it was discovered in her stomach at autopsy.

OK, I'm with you so far, even though I'm not a fan of BDI. She ate the pineapple approx. two hours before death. There is room to consider a margin of error, but pineapple will take roughly that long to get to the part of her intestine it was found in.

BR has a flashlight with him for maneuvering around in the dark and perhaps for providing illumination while playing naughty under the sheets games with JB.


(I think the sexual activity between BR and JB has taken place over a long period of time and has escalated. Touching and probing could have started more than a year earlier when BR learned to apply soothing ointment for JB's diaper rash and JB welcomed the comfort. We know JB didn’t wipe after toilet and called for others to do it for her. It would follow that BR would be among those wiping JB.)

OK.

In any case, the sex-play that Christmas night in JB’s bed got out of hand and JB got hurt. Maybe she screamed in pain. Maybe she started crying, saying “I’m Telling” and jumped out of bed. BR, afraid that JB would run to her parents, whacked JB on the head with the flashlight cracking her skull and knocking her unconscious.

OK, but with some reservations. I don't doubt BR could produce that injury with a long enough lever, but I don't think he could swing a flashlight hard enough to do that kind of damage. A golf club, maybe yes. But ok, I'll go along because I'm not expert on the physics of bashing someone with a blunt object.

Enter PR and JR. They probably tried to revive JB. BR is instructed that Mom and Dad will take care of everything and he is never to speak about what happened.

This is where I'm tempted to go into the dozen or so reasons that BDI is a ridiculous theory. But I'll leave it for now.

Wiping off the blood and redressing by PR and JR probably happened in JB’s bedroom.

I suspect not. There would be no reason to get the size 12s on her when she has a drawer full of size 6s. The only reason I've been able to come up with for the size 12s is that they are in the basement, and therefore available to a perpetrator who doesn't want to risk going upstairs for size 6 from the panty drawer. But perhaps you have a reason for the size 12s being put on her in her bedroom? The DOTW can be explained easily, just in case there are no other Wed size 6s. If the 12s were in a package in the basement I can't see them running all the way down there, then bringing the 12s to her room. Basically I can't see a good reason for the size 12s if JR/PR are working together, but maybe I've missed something? With JR/PR working in concert, I can't see a good reason to put the 12s on her in the basement either. Correct size undies are abundantly available if there are no restrictions on moving about the house, and no one to hide anything from. Why then the 12s if JR/PR are both in on the cover up, and both know of the sexual assault ?

They brought JB down to the WC for further staging with ligature, garrote and broken paint brush handle. Then Patsy wrote the RN. I think their original plan was to remove JB’s body from the house but gave up on that as being too dangerous and complex. So, they called the police. The rest we petty much know.

Why the further staging? To obscure chronic molestation done by someone other than BR?

Why is the plan to dump the body too complex and dangerous ? And how does that danger compare to the danger of having the cops find the body, as well as the obviously fake RN? Once the body is found no investigator (except one paid off by Team Ramsey) would ever believe there were any kidnappers.

I have been lurking for ages and hope the experts here will provide input. Please be gentle; this is the first time I’ve offered an opinion.

I don't think we have any experts here. Certainly I'm not one. By all means offer your input more often. We can always use some fresh insight. By all means critique my theories if you find them mistaken.

I hope nothing I said will be taken as being rude, it certainly isn't intended that way.

 

[Chelly]

Thank you Chrishope for your input. Your arguments are excellent and logical.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the theory that the Dec 25/26 abuse and head-whack happened in the basement rather than JB's bedroom. I missed in my reading that the package of size 12's was found by police in the basement. Was it a wrapped gift for Patsy's niece?

I going back to the drawing board. I'm sure you've stated the dozen or so reasons why the BDI theory is ridiculous. Would you mind stating them again? Otherwise, I'll scroll back and try to locate them.

Thanks for your courtesy. I appreciate that.
C.

 

[Chrishope]

Thank you Chrishope for your input. Your arguments are excellent and logical.

I am still trying to wrap my mind around the theory that the Dec 25/26 abuse and head-whack happened in the basement rather than JB's bedroom. I missed in my reading that the package of size 12's was found by police in the basement. Was it a wrapped gift for Patsy's niece?

I going back to the drawing board. I'm sure you've stated the dozen or so reasons why the BDI theory is ridiculous. Would you mind stating them again? Otherwise, I'll scroll back and try to locate them.

Thanks for your courtesy. I appreciate that.
C.

I'm not saying the abuse and whack on the head didn't happen in the bedroom, just that redressing her there, seems to me unlikely, as there would be ample supplies of correct underwear.

When I say BDI is ridiculous, I mean it sincerely, however it's just my opinion, and there are plenty of smart people here who believe BDI. So consider all sides of it then decide for yourself.

I'll post again later tonight, after my 2nd job, then I'll have time to lay out my reasons for not believing BDI.