Happenings of December 26

[Darlene733510]

I am sure that some of you have seen the story in the news, that a 12 year old boy in CA killed his Sister. She had multiple stab wounds. At first he said it was a man with longish gray hair, but she was killed by her own brother. Leila was 8 years old. I haven't heard why this happened, but he had to have horrid deep hate for her to do something like this.
I still go with the BR theory - he hated JB and he got her out of his life. I can't see either of the parents doing this. PR loved her, and I believe JR did too, but they protected their Son, and staged the cover-up. JR was very angry when he told BR: "we are not talking to you."
I believe they sent him to the Whites because they couldn't stand to have him there after what he had done, and perhaps they thought he may tell the BPD about some accident that
caused his Sister's death. I would bet that he was told never to tell what happened - possibly with the threat that he would be taken to jail because of JB's death. Most kids are somewhat afraid of the cops, and they used this to keep him silent.

 

[midwest mama]

Respectfully snipped.......

Although one thing that is interesting is that Kolar has suggested it started in the breakfast bar. That must mean he knows something else, something he has not released in the public domain?


.

We should try to discuss this. Kolar, quite carefully, answered with this info on Tricia's first podcast with him, but was also careful not to elaborate.

If we could be more certain about where the crime began, it would help us look more closely at motive and means. And which perpetrator would have been most likely, if the bash did occur in the kitchen area.

Several of us are using Kolar's information with great regard as to providing accuracies of evidence, so it follows that we should be considering his "kitchen theory" as sound information.

 

[midwest mama]

A question comes from this information:
"Then the staging continued to make it look like a kidnapping. Patsy tied the girl's wrists in front, not in" the "back, for otherwise the arms would not have been in the overhead position. But with a fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists and the knot tied loosely over the clothing, there was no way such a binding would have restrained a live child. It was a symbolic act to make it appear the child had been bound."

"Patsy took considerable time with her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink nightgown. As the FBI had told us, a stranger would not have taken such care."

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm


Does anyone know of testimony from FW that he saw JR take the loop off one of JB's hands, as JR stated he did when he found her in the WC?

Agree that JB's hands, to be found in rigor as they were would have had to be tied in front and probably her arms placed up over her head when laying her down in the WC? My question is: could her one wrist have already been freed from the loop when she was placed in that position, and JR did not undo it when he found her?

The loops had extra play in them, and were big enough to go around the sleeve of her shirt (the one that was attached) and even it did not appear very tight.

Could the wrist ligature been placed on JB while she was alive, and she somehow managed to pull free from one side? Could the one side have been slipped off in order to redress her?

If JR did undo the one side, and the ligature was tested for DNA, wouldn't that have produced his? Of course, both he and FW said they also handled the mouth tape. Was there ever any info made public about their DNA on the tape?

 

[UKGuy]

We should try to discuss this. Kolar, quite carefully, answered with this info on Tricia's first podcast with him, but was also careful not to elaborate.

If we could be more certain about where the crime began, it would help us look more closely at motive and means. And which perpetrator would have been most likely, if the bash did occur in the kitchen area.

Several of us are using Kolar's information with great regard as to providing accuracies of evidence, so it follows that we should be considering his "kitchen theory" as sound information.

midwest mama,
From memory I think Kolar was suggesting things moved directly from the breakfast bar to the basement?

This might explain the use of the flashlight? Also if it started in the breakfast bar, then I'll assume neither Patsy or John were there. Does it follow Patsy set out the table then left, possibly to pack?

Currently we have a laundry list of unexplained forensic evidence, yet Kolar seems confident in his implicit BDI theory.

So what might link partially opened Christmas gifts, a barbie doll and nightgown.

I do not accept Patsy's story about storing the gifts in the wine-cellar, I reckon thats just to explain away that they are present.

I think the gifts have been placed into the wine-cellar simply because they represent forensic evidence from another crime-scene, i.e. breakfast bar?

Now that barbie doll, is to date, completely without explanation, Patsy never offered anything on this doll, same for all the authors and police, no questions, no answers!

How about Burke searching for the doll, on JonBenet's behalf, opening the gifts till he found it, did this represent a quid pro quo?

If that is wrong then possibly the doll and gown originate from JonBenet's bedroom. She maybe brought them to the breakfast bar?

Alternatively they are simply the remains from a previous staging?

Did BR sexually assault JonBenet in the breakfast bar, then he moved her down to the basement?

This is where I think some information is missing since I cannot link the breakfast bar with the basement, also the breakfast bar was left untouched, suggesting it had no link with JonBenet's death?

If Kolar does another interview someone should ask him about how he links the breakfast bar with the basement?


.

 

[otg]

A question comes from this information:
"Then the staging continued to make it look like a kidnapping. Patsy tied the girl's wrists in front, not in" the "back, for otherwise the arms would not have been in the overhead position. But with a fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists and the knot tied loosely over the clothing, there was no way such a binding would have restrained a live child. It was a symbolic act to make it appear the child had been bound."

"Patsy took considerable time with her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink nightgown. As the FBI had told us, a stranger would not have taken such care."

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm


Does anyone know of testimony from FW that he saw JR take the loop off one of JB's hands, as JR stated he did when he found her in the WC?

Agree that JB's hands, to be found in rigor as they were would have had to be tied in front and probably her arms placed up over her head when laying her down in the WC? My question is: could her one wrist have already been freed from the loop when she was placed in that position, and JR did not undo it when he found her?

The loops had extra play in them, and were big enough to go around the sleeve of her shirt (the one that was attached) and even it did not appear very tight.

Could the wrist ligature been placed on JB while she was alive, and she somehow managed to pull free from one side? Could the one side have been slipped off in order to redress her?

If JR did undo the one side, and the ligature was tested for DNA, wouldn't that have produced his? Of course, both he and FW said they also handled the mouth tape. Was there ever any info made public about their DNA on the tape?

To my knowledge, FW’s testimony has never been released or leaked. My guess as to what he saw is this:

JR distracted him at the window with the broken glass. While FW was looking at it, JR made a beeline to the WC and began his “discovery” before FW made it there. When he did make it there, JR’s body would have been at least partially blocking FW’s view of what he was doing. So all we have is JR’s version of what he did, along with the evidence.

JR said that he pulled the tape off her mouth and then tried to loosen and remove the binding from one of her wrists before picking her body up to bring it upstairs. FW (according to written accounts) felt her feet for temperature (realizing she was dead) while JR was doing this. Of course, it is also written that he picked up the tape and looked at it after JR left the room.

The coroner wrote the following:

“Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5 inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord is also frayed.”
​

If you look at the picture of this ligature, you can see what Meyer was describing. The “double loop knot” is what would have been attached to JonBenet’s left wrist. It appears to me that the two loops were created from JR’s attempt to loosen and remove this binding. IIRC, JR said he tried to loosen it, but couldn’t because it was too tight (yeah, right); but when Meyer arrived on the scene, he stated, “A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist.” (Notice there is no mention of the ligature attachment to the left wrist.) I took the picture above and reoriented it by 26° (to square it up with the scale). I extended the scale marks (ABFO No. 2), approximately) with grey delineations. Then I drew black lines from certain points so you can estimate the sizes (indicated with green). (The name of the forensic scale being used by Meyer is shown better in this photo.)

My question here is about the size of JonBenet’s hand. The binding from her right hand looks to be ~5-cm in diameter (2”). Would a 6yo girl’s wrist be so small as to allow a 2” loop over the sweater on her wrist? (Not important, but it seems awfully small to me.) Did Meyer have to loosen it to remove it, and then reposition it incorrectly? And then the other loop (which JR supposedly removed) appears to be even smaller.

But to your question, mwmm, if JR handled or manipulated the ligature on her left wrist (which I believe he did), then yes, his DNA should have been detected. Do we know about any of the DNA that was found on any of the ligatures?

 

[DeeDee249]

JR's DNA should be there because he claimed to have tried to untie her. However, I do not believe he did. I have never seen anything about what DNA, is any, was found on the cord. They make such a big deal about "touch DNA", yet have not said whether they tested the cord for any touch DNA, for a match against the touch DNA on her clothing.

 

[otg]

I am sure that some of you have seen the story in the news, that a 12 year old boy in CA killed his Sister. She had multiple stab wounds. At first he said it was a man with longish gray hair, but she was killed by her own brother. Leila was 8 years old. I haven't heard why this happened, but he had to have horrid deep hate for her to do something like this.
I still go with the BR theory - he hated JB and he got her out of his life. I can't see either of the parents doing this. PR loved her, and I believe JR did too, but they protected their Son, and staged the cover-up. JR was very angry when he told BR: "we are not talking to you."
I believe they sent him to the Whites because they couldn't stand to have him there after what he had done, and perhaps they thought he may tell the BPD about some accident that
caused his Sister's death. I would bet that he was told never to tell what happened - possibly with the threat that he would be taken to jail because of JB's death. Most kids are somewhat afraid of the cops, and they used this to keep him silent.

I was reluctant to bring up this case... but since someone else did, here goes:

(Notice the difference in their ages: 8yo girl, 12yo boy.)

Speculation posted from before the announcement of an arrest (bolding is by the original author):

Let's just ask what we're all thinking here. Could her brother be a suspect? After all, he was in the house and had opportunity. It's horrible to think about -- but killers this young do exist.

However, authorities have repeatedly said the boy is not a suspect and is cooperating with the investigation. Of course, they would say that to keep him cooperating.

However, if the brother was the main suspect, why would the police spend manpower searching the area for the suspect? They've looked through two nearby ponds for evidence.

And where is the weapon? Although knives from the Fowler home are being tested, would a 12-year-old really be able to have the presence of mind to clean knives and put them back? Why weren't the knives taken for testing last week? If a family knife is missing, wouldn't the boy have been arrested by now?
​

This happened in California, not Colorado, but “Defense Attorney Advises Leila Fowler’s Family To Find Legal Counsel”:

In juvenile court, the 12-year-old will not face a jury of his peers. A judge will instead weigh the facts and determine a sentence that could be years of rehabilitation and education.

Since he is only 12, the suspect cannot be tried as an adult in the state of California, no matter the circumstances, Reichel said.

If convicted, he could be locked up for a very long time.

“The maximum possible is he’ll be held at a youth authority until he is 25 years old, and then he will be released as an adult on parole,” Reichel said.
The legal problems in the case aren’t just for the boy. If a family member tried to mislead investigators, they could face jail time.

“I think every single one of them needs an attorney,” Reichel said. “Any coverups or any assistance they gave, or any false statements or any misleading communications they gave to law enforcement could have hindered the investigation, and that in itself is a crime.
​

A few items from here:

Neighbors in Valley Springs, Calif., where the family lives, said they feared all along that Leila's brother -- not a mystery man the boy described -- might be responsible for the girl's stabbing death.

Barbara Barron, who lives two doors down from Leila Fowler's home, said she suspected the brother from the beginning and found it unusual that he allegedly called his parents before calling police when he found his sister.

"It made us sadder, because he's just 12 years old," Barron told ABCNews.com. "The family has lost two children now."

Authorities initially said Leila's brother was not a suspect, but acknowledged they were continuing to talk with him.
​

And from here:

A day before the arrest, the boy's biological mother told CBS Sacramento her son "could never hurt his sister."

"I've never seen him be mean to her," Priscilla Rodriquez told the station Friday. "My son loved his sister so much."

​

Does that sound familiar? If not...

TOM HANEY: So you said it wasn't you and it wasn't John. Could it have been Burke?

PATSY RAMSEY: No. It wouldn't have been Burke.

TOM HANEY: Why couldn't it?

PATSY RAMSEY: How do you believe you saw (INAUDIBLE) a ten-year old, nine-year old boy (INAUDIBLE). Plus the fact that he loved his sister.

TOM HANEY: It's not unheard of for a nine or ten-year old child?

PATSY RAMSEY: My child it is unheard of.

TOM HANEY: And why is that? What would make him different from some other nine or ten-year old?

PATSY RAMSEY: Because he was not raised in a family of violence. We are a very loving family.
​

 

[DeeDee249]

Not only is the 12-year old brother s suspect- he has already been arrested and charges with the murder of his sister.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
It is the wording. You seem to be generalising from very specific circumstances. Where there is a very large hole in your knowledge, in statistical terms, i.e. you cannot measure those cases where abuse goes unrecorded.

This is an exemplar of the ludic fallacy, which is not particular to game theory, but represents a faith in some statistical theory, e.g. Credit Crunch and the banks assumption that the bell curve was a good model for markets.

That apart your what you write makes a lot of sense. Accepting what you say about Patsy, I would just rule her out. So the odds become 50:50 when you consider JDI and BDI.

Without more information its difficult to select one theory over the other. I chose BDI because of the amateurish crime-scene.

Although one thing that is interesting is that Kolar has suggested it started in the breakfast bar. That must mean he knows something else, something he has not released in the public domain?


.

Taleb himself defines the ludic fallacy as applying to game theory and the type of modeling that economists do. His concern is with predictive ability. Ludic fallacy doesn't apply here. We are just looking at a past crime, and past stats on crime.

Of course unrecorded events cant be measured, what number would we assign to them? How many unrecorded events are there? We can't know.

What we can know is how many of the recorded events were committed by men, women, children.

It's possible for BR to have committed sexual assault (and the definition is broad enough to include different types of activities), it's more probable, based on the stats collected, that it was an adult male.

I don't think it's difficult to choose one theory over the other. Neither do you. We agree in rejecting the intruder theory, even though there is no reason it couldn't have been an intruder. IDI doesn't strike either of us as a likely scenario.

What strikes me about the staging is not the amateurish quality but the fact that it's "cross-wired". It's not a kidnapping because there is a body, and it's not a sex murder because there is a RN, redressing, and hiding the body in the WC. For that reason I choose the DocG theory.

 

[Chrishope]

Boys of that age are certainly capable of sexual assault - even full intercourse. Boys far younger have erections. BR may not have had viable ejaculate, but he had the "equipment". And he was certainly capable of digital penetration or using an object. Don't let the "pre-pubescent" age fool you. Kids that age are very aware of sex (sadly). They know that "tab B fits into slot A".

Boys in their bassinets have erections while their mothers diaper them. I'm not going to consider their potential as molesters.


Yes BR had the equipment. He'd had it since birth.

Yes, he could have digitally penetrated her, but if so where is the necessity to garrotte JBR and stage a phoney kidnapping? Why worry about the doctors discovering relatively minor signs of digital abuse from playing doctor.

And of course if he'd been the chronic molester, why was he allowed to continue? If the parents were not aware of the ongoing abuse, then they would not have killed/staged to prevent the evidence of abuse from being discovered.

BR may have known tab A fits in slot B but that doesn't make BDI plausible.

 

[Chrishope]

A question comes from this information:
"Then the staging continued to make it look like a kidnapping. Patsy tied the girl's wrists in front, not in" the "back, for otherwise the arms would not have been in the overhead position. But with a fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists and the knot tied loosely over the clothing, there was no way such a binding would have restrained a live child. It was a symbolic act to make it appear the child had been bound."

"Patsy took considerable time with her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink nightgown. As the FBI had told us, a stranger would not have taken such care."

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm


Does anyone know of testimony from FW that he saw JR take the loop off one of JB's hands, as JR stated he did when he found her in the WC?

Agree that JB's hands, to be found in rigor as they were would have had to be tied in front and probably her arms placed up over her head when laying her down in the WC? My question is: could her one wrist have already been freed from the loop when she was placed in that position, and JR did not undo it when he found her?

The loops had extra play in them, and were big enough to go around the sleeve of her shirt (the one that was attached) and even it did not appear very tight.

Could the wrist ligature been placed on JB while she was alive, and she somehow managed to pull free from one side? Could the one side have been slipped off in order to redress her?

If JR did undo the one side, and the ligature was tested for DNA, wouldn't that have produced his? Of course, both he and FW said they also handled the mouth tape. Was there ever any info made public about their DNA on the tape?

"Then the staging continued to make it look like a kidnapping. ...

Right, the kidnapping that obviously never occurred because the body is in the WC.

... Patsy tied the girl's wrists in front, not in" the "back, for otherwise the arms would not have been in the overhead position. But with a fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists and the knot tied loosely over the clothing, there was no way such a binding would have restrained a live child. It was a symbolic act to make it appear the child had been bound."

A symbolic act that didn't look real to anyone? Where is the symbolism? PR isn't intelligent enough to realize that if the girl is going to be made to look as if she'd been bound then the bindings would have to be convincing?

"Patsy took considerable time with her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink nightgown. As the FBI had told us, a stranger would not have taken such care."

Or, she was wrapped quickly in the blanket and the nightgown was thrown into the WC beside the body because, like the body, it needed to be hidden from view.

No, a stranger who was a sex murderer would not have taken such care.

http://www.acandyrose.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

 

[questfortrue]

I would go with your hand over the mouth scenario, as an easier silencing, except for one thing, which is that there was an obvious fight, evidenced by marks on JB’s body. In that regard, a head strike seems more likely, and that perhaps she was running away from the perp when she was struck.

Another thing which I have not seen explained, but perhaps someone has an explanation for: Was there a sexual assault that evening prior to the paintbrush (or other such instrument) used? It seems like yes, since the analysis of experts was that the insertion of the paintbrush was not violent, and that it occurred close to her death because it didn’t bleed that much. And that JB’s body was cleaned of blood. But is that for certain or an obvious conclusion?

This brings me to a more complex situation. It may have been that BR was responsible for the fight, the head strike and the earlier assault. But then what is the purpose of the paintbrush since they had cleaned her up? Was it a “just in case” scenario in the event that she was vaginally examined for chronic assaults? That would point to the fact that one or more of them knew of her sexual abuse. Of course, that leads to Chrishope excellent question:
And of course if he'd been the chronic molester, why was he allowed to continue? If the parents were not aware of the ongoing abuse, then they would not have killed/staged to prevent the evidence of abuse from being discovered.

Some of us have believed that PR knew about a molestation because of numerous things which would point to it (blood in the panties, vaginal infections, calls to the Dr., etc. ) and MM wondered that perhaps PR thought having BR in counseling would prevent future sexual game playing. But OTOH, if it were both BR and JR, would she have easily brought up the subject with JR?

And, another question why would JB continue to sleep in BR’s room, if he were hurting her, by digitally penetrating her? JB’s behavior doesn’t necessarily point just to BR as her abuser. A male adult might render JB more submissive, whereas I’d think she’d protest against her brother. JMHO

 

[Chrishope]

I would go with your hand over the mouth scenario, as an easier silencing, except for one thing, which is that there was an obvious fight, evidenced by marks on JB’s body. In that regard, a head strike seems more likely, and that perhaps she was running away from the perp when she was struck.

Another thing which I have not seen explained, but perhaps someone has an explanation for: Was there a sexual assault that evening prior to the paintbrush (or other such instrument) used? It seems like yes, since the analysis of experts was that the insertion of the paintbrush was not violent, and that it occurred close to her death because it didn’t bleed that much. And that JB’s body was cleaned of blood. But is that for certain or an obvious conclusion?

This brings me to a more complex situation. It may have been that BR was responsible for the fight, the head strike and the earlier assault. But then what is the purpose of the paintbrush since they had cleaned her up? Was it a “just in case” scenario in the event that she was vaginally examined for chronic assaults? That would point to the fact that one or more of them knew of her sexual abuse. Of course, that leads to Chrishope excellent question:
And of course if he'd been the chronic molester, why was he allowed to continue? If the parents were not aware of the ongoing abuse, then they would not have killed/staged to prevent the evidence of abuse from being discovered.

Some of us have believed that PR knew about a molestation because of numerous things which would point to it (blood in the panties, vaginal infections, calls to the Dr., etc. ) and MM wondered that perhaps PR thought having BR in counseling would prevent future sexual game playing. But OTOH, if it were both BR and JR, would she have easily brought up the subject with JR?

And, another question why would JB continue to sleep in BR’s room, if he were hurting her, by digitally penetrating her? JB’s behavior doesn’t necessarily point just to BR as her abuser. A male adult might render JB more submissive, whereas I’d think she’d protest against her brother. JMHO

That's a good point. I would wonder whether we could call it a fight (does it take two to tango?) or should we just say JB has marks on her body? IOWs, does BR/JR/PR have marks to show they'd been in a fight? Or did someone strike JBR several times? Perhaps she struggled to get away but did not fight back?

A head strike does seem likely in the context of other violent acts, but then I think we can still ask about the role of the "scream". Was she hit to silence her? Or was she hit for other reasons?

At least one parent made a conscious decision not to call for an ambulance. So that parent must have known of the chronic abuse -if that was the concern that prevented an ambulance call.

 

[Darlene733510]

When I think of the GJ decision to charge the parents, it leads me to think that if they had been charged, there was the possibility that BR could have been taken away from them.
I don't think a child would have been allowed to remain with parents who neglected or abused a child.
I think that was the reason for the disappearance of part of the CPS interview with BR.
AH knew this, and that is why he did not let the R's testify. Couldn't the GJ insist on hearing from them anyway? It seems that after they heard BR it was over, and that is an oddity to me.
I still think it started with BR, and the parents did the staging. Where it all began is the question we would like to have answered. If Kolar thinks it was the kitchen, could her head have been slammed against one of the countertops?

 

[otg]

Not only is the 12-year old brother a suspect- he has already been arrested and charged with the murder of his sister.

:yes: Like I said, "This happened in California, not Colorado."

 

[otg]

Boys in their bassinets have erections while their mothers diaper them. I'm not going to consider their potential as molesters.


Yes BR had the equipment. He'd had it since birth.

Yes, he could have digitally penetrated her, but if so where is the necessity to garrotte JBR and stage a phoney kidnapping? Why worry about the doctors discovering relatively minor signs of digital abuse from playing doctor.

And of course if he'd been the chronic molester, why was he allowed to continue? If the parents were not aware of the ongoing abuse, then they would not have killed/staged to prevent the evidence of abuse from being discovered.

BR may have known tab A fits in slot B but that doesn't make BDI plausible.

The problem in making any sense of this mess is knowing exactly what to attribute to whom. And that is because more than one person had a hand the whole thing (as I believe most posters here will acknowledge). However likely or unlikely, and however dreadful or repugnant to consider, any one of four people who lived in the hellhole could have caused the vaginal injuries. But believing that the one person who is responsible for that has to be the same one who did everything else is IMO wrong.

We can go through the whole likelihood of one person over another, we can talk about statistics of abusers, and we can always discuss occam's razor vs the plenitude principle.

But based on what I can read in the AR and on the opinions and reasoning I’ve read from specialists who have actually seen all the evidence, I believe that the molestation had started a considerable length of time before her death. The exact amount of time cannot be reasonably estimated even by the experts. But understanding the term “chronic” as it is used by doctors tells us that it had to be a long enough period of time that any resulting injury would have time enough to partially heal but not scar over. The separate “acute” injuries had to have happened shortly before her death -- not afterwards as some have speculated, leading them to the incorrect conclusion that these injuries might have been inflicted to hide or mask the prior molestations.

This much we know because it is written by the coroner. The rest is speculation, so here's mine:

To me, this seems to have been something that had started happening within recent months prior to her death, and then escalated to the point of causing more and more physical damage (not to mention the mental damage) and eventually pain when it was being done.

So if you follow that line of reasoning, it makes more sense (to me at least) to believe this was something being done by a juvenile whose sexual curiosity had been awakened and was going to continue progressing until something happened that would stop it. And I don’t discount the possibility that more than one juvenile may have been involved in the ongoing molestation. There are indications that this may have been the case. I think PR was beginning to see signs of it, but either didn’t want to address it, or didn’t know what to do about it. I don’t think JR was even aware of it, but that’s only because I see him as being so busy with his business and detached from the family.

No, I don't subscribe to DocG's theory.

 

[Chrishope]

The problem in making any sense of this mess is knowing exactly what to attribute to whom. And that is because more than one person had a hand the whole thing (as I believe most posters here will acknowledge). ...

I think it's quite possible it was all done by one person.

... However likely or unlikely, and however dreadful or repugnant to consider, any one of four people who lived in the hellhole could have caused the vaginal injuries. ...

Agreed.

... But believing that the one person who is responsible for that has to be the same one who did everything else is IMO wrong. ...

Emphasizing the word "has", I would agree. But it could, imo, be the same person.

... We can go through the whole likelihood of one person over another, we can talk about statistics of abusers, and we can always discuss occam's razor vs the plenitude principle.

But based on what I can read in the AR and on the opinions and reasoning I’ve read from specialists who have actually seen all the evidence, I believe that the molestation had started a considerable length of time before her death. The exact amount of time cannot be reasonably estimated even by the experts. But understanding the term “chronic” as it is used by doctors tells us that it had to be a long enough period of time that any resulting injury would have time enough to partially heal but not scar over. The separate “acute” injuries had to have happened shortly before her death -- not afterwards as some have speculated, ...

Agreed.

... leading them to the incorrect conclusion that these injuries might have been inflicted to hide or mask the prior molestations.

Why couldn't the acute injuries have been inflicted prior to death with the intent to obscure chronic injuries? Not that I necessarily think the acute injures were in fact inflicted for that purpose, but I don't see why the couldn't be.

This much we know because it is written by the coroner. The rest is speculation, so here's mine:

To me, this seems to have been something that had started happening within recent months prior to her death, and then escalated to the point of causing more and more physical damage (not to mention the mental damage) and eventually pain when it was being done.

So if you follow that line of reasoning, it makes more sense (to me at least) to believe this was something being done by a juvenile whose sexual curiosity had been awakened and was going to continue progressing until something happened that would stop it. And I don’t discount the possibility that more than one juvenile may have been involved in the ongoing molestation. There are indications that this may have been the case.

What indications?

I think PR was beginning to see signs of it, but either didn’t want to address it, or didn’t know what to do about it. I don’t think JR was even aware of it, but that’s only because I see him as being so busy with his business and detached from the family.

No, I don't subscribe to DocG's theory.

But then we have the old problem of why the Rs felt it necessary to implicate themselves in the murder of their daughter. We seem to be falling back to the idea that the Rs didn't want ti publicly known that BR was the abuser and/or head basher. But I always have trouble believing either adult in the household figured implicating themselves in a capital crime was preferable.

To me, it's implausible that parents who were unaware or only dimly becoming aware of prior abuse would decide the best course of action, upon discovering JBR's injuries, was to stage a phoney kidnapping. It does seem a popular theory.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it's quite possible it was all done by one person.

Agreed.

Emphasizing the word "has", I would agree. But it could, imo, be the same person.



Agreed.

Why couldn't the acute injuries have been inflicted prior to death with the intent to obscure chronic injuries? Not that I necessarily think the acute injures were in fact inflicted for that purpose, but I don't see why the couldn't be.



What indications?

But then we have the old problem of why the Rs felt it necessary to implicate themselves in the murder of their daughter. We seem to be falling back to the idea that the Rs didn't want ti publicly known that BR was the abuser and/or head basher. But I always have trouble believing either adult in the household figured implicating themselves in a capital crime was preferable.

To me, it's implausible that parents who were unaware or only dimly becoming aware of prior abuse would decide the best course of action, upon discovering JBR's injuries, was to stage a phoney kidnapping. It does seem a popular theory.

Chrishope,
Is debate of any consequence if nothing is plausible?

Confronted with the reality of abuse and a corpse the R's had to offer some answers. So to date you have had JR's TV representations, does this not suggest something to you, beyond any theory?

Since JR is not a theory he actualy exists to promote some viewpoint.

Why should the populour theory be the wrong one?

Can you iterate your objections?




.

 

[Darlene733510]

The fact that JB was wrapped so carefully in that white blanket does not seem like something BR would do. IMO The white blanket was laid on the wc floor, by one parent, and the other parent carried her there. Wouldn't a Mother want to wrap her up like this? Wouldn't a Mother want her doll there with her? How the nightgown got there is a good question. It was touched by both PR and BR. JR did not touch it, so how much was done by Mother and Son, and when did JR enter the scene, and what part did he have in it? We know he probably did some clean-up because his shirt fibers were found on her. Was he not called right away, but later on, because they knew he had to be told? Is that why he was so angry when he told BR "we are not talking to you."

 

[DeeDee249]

The fact that JB was wrapped so carefully in that white blanket does not seem like something BR would do. IMO The white blanket was laid on the wc floor, by one parent, and the other parent carried her there. Wouldn't a Mother want to wrap her up like this? Wouldn't a Mother want her doll there with her? How the nightgown got there is a good question. It was touched by both PR and BR. JR did not touch it, so how much was done by Mother and Son, and when did JR enter the scene, and what part did he have in it? We know he probably did some clean-up because his shirt fibers were found on her. Was he not called right away, but later on, because they knew he had to be told? Is that why he was so angry when he told BR "we are not talking to you."

I don't think BR did any of the staging/clean up. I know his DNA was on the pink nightgown, so maybe he handled in during the molestation, possibly pulling it up or off.