Happenings of December 26

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midwest mama,
One possibility is that it was an ongoing activity, say from 12/23, and 12/25 was its culmination, something patently got out of hand.

.

If there was a focus on child sexual activity being played out starting with the party on the 23rd, and culminating with her death, then wouldn't that process have had had precedence in the perpetrators mind above and beyond the Christmas celebrations that usually occupy children's minds?

To me, that says severe child psychological misbehavior. Would a child who was on the verge of these types of behaviors have appeared to be without problems to all others in the vicinity? In other words, surely some responsible adult might have questioned whether or not Burke was doing OK? If Burke only had getting at JB on his mind over a period of days, could he have appeared relatively "normal" enough during those days?
 
Glad to see both Chrishope and UKGuy having some dialogue that seems to be meshing - not just here, but also on another thread. You both have very good forensic minds, so both of them bouncing off each other and considering evidence could end up with an awesome outcome!

Now, the question I keep coming back to time and again, as do some others on this forum, is why in the name of heaven after a couple of hectic days celebrating the holidays - probably special Church services, parties, dinners, gifts everywhere, clothing in the process of being gathered for more holiday celebrations, the excitement of trip plans tossed into the mix, with the promise of more presents, would there even be a thought for an off-the-wall sex game to be squeezed into the activities? By children, sometime after midnite, according to a timeline estimate??


I'm unsure what you are saying here. Are you wondering why BR/JBR would engage in a sex game after midnight?

IMO BR didn't do anything to JBR -of a sexual nature. The one exception might be playing doctor, and being a little too curious. They did not decide to play doctor after midnight.

Someone was having a sex game, using JBR, but it most likely wasn't a prepubescent 9 year old.
 
If there was a focus on child sexual activity being played out starting with the party on the 23rd, and culminating with her death, then wouldn't that process have had had precedence in the perpetrators mind above and beyond the Christmas celebrations that usually occupy children's minds?

To me, that says severe child psychological misbehavior. Would a child who was on the verge of these types of behaviors have appeared to be without problems to all others in the vicinity? In other words, surely some responsible adult might have questioned whether or not Burke was doing OK? If Burke only had getting at JB on his mind over a period of days, could he have appeared relatively "normal" enough during those days?

midwest mama,
Yes, and postmortem. What we regard as abnormal behaviour was normal to JonBenet's abuser.

JonBenet may have been molested on 12/23 and again on 12/24 when a bedroom was shared.

It may even have been concensual in the sense they were playing doctors, but on 12/25 JonBenet's abuser accidently induced her into coma.

The rest is all staging created by all three Ramsey's.


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I'm unsure what you are saying here. Are you wondering why BR/JBR would engage in a sex game after midnight?

IMO BR didn't do anything to JBR -of a sexual nature. The one exception might be playing doctor, and being a little too curious. They did not decide to play doctor after midnight.

Someone was having a sex game, using JBR, but it most likely wasn't a prepubescent 9 year old.

My point exactly, and I agree. I do not believe Burke was involved in any sort of sexual activity, or even in playing doctor. with JB on the night of Christmas.

Those kids should have been exhausted from the holiday happenings, and while I know kids can sometimes "frog out" and not be easy to get to bed when they are looking forward to another exciting adventure, such as flying off to another Christmas gathering in the early morning, I would think they would not have added a late night sex thing of any sort to their agenda.
 
midwest mama,
Yes, and postmortem. What we regard as abnormal behaviour was normal to JonBenet's abuser.

JonBenet may have been molested on 12/23 and again on 12/24 when a bedroom was shared.

It may even have been concensual in the sense they were playing doctors, but on 12/25 JonBenet's abuser accidently induced her into coma.

The rest is all staging created by all three Ramsey's.


.
OK - I can remain open to the fact that JB's abuser might have thought his behavior with her was normal, though we saw it as abnormal, and therefore might have been presenting in a very cool manner at most times.

Now, if Burke was able to perpetrate against JB on the 23rd and maybe even the 24th without having to whack her the way she was bashed on the head on the night of the 25th-26th, what do you think might have been the reason for the head bash that night if he was doing the molesting again?

If he did it out of rage because he couldn't get her co-operation, why would she have co-operated on the previous occasions, but not that night? If Burke just did the bash out of rage, without any sexual molestation that night, then, in your opinion, would the fresh attack have been done by another person, or was it done in the attempt to cover up previous attacks? And by whom?
 
My point exactly, and I agree. I do not believe Burke was involved in any sort of sexual activity, or even in playing doctor. with JB on the night of Christmas.

Those kids should have been exhausted from the holiday happenings, and while I know kids can sometimes "frog out" and not be easy to get to bed when they are looking forward to another exciting adventure, such as flying off to another Christmas gathering in the early morning, I would think they would not have added a late night sex thing of any sort to their agenda.


I agree. If they were at all normal kids they'd have been up early to see what Santa brought them. By midnight they'd be zonked out.
 
OK - I can remain open to the fact that JB's abuser might have thought his behavior with her was normal, though we saw it as abnormal, and therefore might have been presenting in a very cool manner at most times.

Now, if Burke was able to perpetrate against JB on the 23rd and maybe even the 24th without having to whack her the way she was bashed on the head on the night of the 25th-26th, what do you think might have been the reason for the head bash that night if he was doing the molesting again?

If he did it out of rage because he couldn't get her co-operation, why would she have co-operated on the previous occasions, but not that night? If Burke just did the bash out of rage, without any sexual molestation that night, then, in your opinion, would the fresh attack have been done by another person, or was it done in the attempt to cover up previous attacks? And by whom?

midwest mama,
As per my Coma Theory in my reply to you in another thread, the head injury represent staging.

Give it some lateral thought and its obvious two things need to be either covered up or staged, i.e. that JonBenet is unconcious or in coma, and her sexual injuries.

So IMO the head injury represents an attempt to offer an obvious reason for JonBenet lying in coma, except as we know her head injury was not visible. So the R's moved onto ligature asphyxiation.

I reckon BR was molesting JonBenet at will from 12/23 through to 12/25, when either Patsy or John threatened to discover them, so BR silenced JonBenet, preventing her from crying out, by smothering her, this led to coma.

The rest as they say is staging and history?


.
 
midwest mama,
As per my Coma Theory in my reply to you in another thread, the head injury represent staging.

Give it some lateral thought and its obvious two things need to be either covered up or staged, i.e. that JonBenet is unconcious or in coma, and her sexual injuries.

So IMO the head injury represents an attempt to offer an obvious reason for JonBenet lying in coma, except as we know her head injury was not visible. So the R's moved onto ligature asphyxiation.

I reckon BR was molesting JonBenet at will from 12/23 through to 12/25, when either Patsy or John threatened to discover them, so BR silenced JonBenet, preventing her from crying out, by smothering her, this led to coma.

The rest as they say is staging and history?


.

Your theory that JB was first put into coma by a means to stop her from screaming out would account for the marks on the lower front of her neck as shown in the autopsy reports - a strangulation of some kind. Or, there was a strangulation by a fabric of some sort, which might have been part of the "sex game gone awry" suspicion that a couple of experts touted, prior to the head bash and ligature tightening. Either way, unconsciousness could have occurred.

So, yes, then the bash could be part of the process to stage an attack. And JB would never have realized it, praise God. If so, then I think the perpetrator thought the bash had finished her, and resorted to the ligature tightening only after realizing it did not.
 
Your theory that JB was first put into coma by a means to stop her from screaming out would account for the marks on the lower front of her neck as shown in the autopsy reports - a strangulation of some kind. Or, there was a strangulation by a fabric of some sort, which might have been part of the "sex game gone awry" suspicion that a couple of experts touted, prior to the head bash and ligature tightening. Either way, unconsciousness could have occurred.

So, yes, then the bash could be part of the process to stage an attack. And JB would never have realized it, praise God. If so, then I think the perpetrator thought the bash had finished her, and resorted to the ligature tightening only after realizing it did not.

midwest mama,
Agreed, this is my interpretation of the available forensic evidence.


.
 
From ACR noted JR's observation regarding a photo of JB's bed. "LOU SMIT: John, I would like you to look closely at photographs 123 -- 122, 123, 124 and 125, and those are mainly that area of JonBenet (bed) and see if you see anything there that looks out of place or is different or anything that rings a bell with you.
"LOU SMIT: How about the pillow? JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if it's a pillow it should. LOU SMIT: Is that normally that? JOHN RAMSEY: Probably, I just don't remember it. Might have been. It matches the sheet and (INAUDIBLE). I don't know why it would be at the end of the bed. Kids slept on pillows at the head of the bed.

A pillow tossed aside after muffling a scream?? moo
 
From ACR noted JR's observation regarding a photo of JB's bed. "LOU SMIT: John, I would like you to look closely at photographs 123 -- 122, 123, 124 and 125, and those are mainly that area of JonBenet (bed) and see if you see anything there that looks out of place or is different or anything that rings a bell with you.
"LOU SMIT: How about the pillow? JOHN RAMSEY: Well, if it's a pillow it should. LOU SMIT: Is that normally that? JOHN RAMSEY: Probably, I just don't remember it. Might have been. It matches the sheet and (INAUDIBLE). I don't know why it would be at the end of the bed. Kids slept on pillows at the head of the bed.

A pillow tossed aside after muffling a scream?? moo

Possibly- but Patsy also said that JB kept her pajamas under he pillow (lots of kids do that) and that she found the pink top (it can be seen on the bed near the head) but couldn't find the bottoms, so she grabbed the long johns. This actually makes sense and explains why the pillow was moved to the foot of the bed- but doesn't solve the puzzle of the missing pink bottoms (which have never been determined nor have I ever seen where LE asked her about them).
 
IDK, the pillow at the foot of the bed possibly has no meaning. But since ACR lists this photo as a crime scene photo, I understood the photo was taken by the detectives.
 
What doesn’t work about a BDI theory for me involves the actual scene. As midwest mama points out, what would have been so different this night, since some think BR and JB had participated in this activity before.

Bear with me on this possible scenario which seems improbable at the end. I can imagine a big fight between JB and BR after the pineapple, because it may have been that JB showed up downstairs and took some pineapple out of the bowl which was BR’s. (Remember the interview where BR can no longer drink out of his soda can, because the psychologist had mistakenly grabbed his soda can and taken a sip.) Then PR sends them up to get in bed. But the fight continues, with BR thinking, ok you ruined my pineapple, I’m going to mess up your box of chocolate. In the kertuffle, JB falls on one of her tiaras on the floor and gets the abrasion on her cheek (which leaves some blood on the pillow). So then there is a sexual assault in the bed, and here’s where I can’t see how a head strike and an assault ensue. BR just happens to have an item to strike her in hand? Doesn’t make sense.

Chrishope and UKguy think she was put into a coma during the assault somehow and the rest is staging. It stretches my imagination how a parent could strike an unconscious child. But if so, which of the parents would be capable of such a callous action. The unobvious one who was so cordial? JMHO and IDK.
 
What doesn’t work about a BDI theory for me involves the actual scene. As midwest mama points out, what would have been so different this night, since some think BR and JB had participated in this activity before.

Bear with me on this possible scenario which seems improbable at the end. I can imagine a big fight between JB and BR after the pineapple, because it may have been that JB showed up downstairs and took some pineapple out of the bowl which was BR’s. (Remember the interview where BR can no longer drink out of his soda can, because the psychologist had mistakenly grabbed his soda can and taken a sip.) Then PR sends them up to get in bed. But the fight continues, with BR thinking, ok you ruined my pineapple, I’m going to mess up your box of chocolate. In the kertuffle, JB falls on one of her tiaras on the floor and gets the abrasion on her cheek (which leaves some blood on the pillow). So then there is a sexual assault in the bed, and here’s where I can’t see how a head strike and an assault ensue. BR just happens to have an item to strike her in hand? Doesn’t make sense.

Chrishope and UKguy think she was put into a coma during the assault somehow and the rest is staging. It stretches my imagination how a parent could strike an unconscious child. But if so, which of the parents would be capable of such a callous action. The unobvious one who was so cordial? JMHO and IDK.

Your idea of some of JB's bodily injuries happening unrelated to the actual sexual assault, bash, and strangulation bears consideration. I can envision your pineapple/bedtime scenario as possible, especially with more stuff happening upstairs before they might have had to be dealt with by a parent to get them settled and into bed once and for all.

If a parent was called for, which parent might have been the most likely to respond? Which parent most likely would have been the most suited to breaking up a fight, soothing JB and tucking her in, and getting Burke off to his room?
 
What doesn’t work about a BDI theory for me involves the actual scene. As midwest mama points out, what would have been so different this night, since some think BR and JB had participated in this activity before.

Bear with me on this possible scenario which seems improbable at the end. I can imagine a big fight between JB and BR after the pineapple, because it may have been that JB showed up downstairs and took some pineapple out of the bowl which was BR’s. (Remember the interview where BR can no longer drink out of his soda can, because the psychologist had mistakenly grabbed his soda can and taken a sip.) Then PR sends them up to get in bed. But the fight continues, with BR thinking, ok you ruined my pineapple, I’m going to mess up your box of chocolate. In the kertuffle, JB falls on one of her tiaras on the floor and gets the abrasion on her cheek (which leaves some blood on the pillow). So then there is a sexual assault in the bed, and here’s where I can’t see how a head strike and an assault ensue. BR just happens to have an item to strike her in hand? Doesn’t make sense.

Chrishope and UKguy think she was put into a coma during the assault somehow and the rest is staging. It stretches my imagination how a parent could strike an unconscious child. But if so, which of the parents would be capable of such a callous action. The unobvious one who was so cordial? JMHO and IDK.

questfortrue,
Allow us to consider your reasoning. Now by default any intruder would not want to advertise their presence so silencing JonBenet is their preferred solution.

Now with JDI, he may wish to silence JonBenet in the event that discovery was immannent.

Similarly with BDI, JonBenet may have been being abused, but the abuser realized one of his parents was close by, so he suffocated her, leading to coma?

I would actually go for JDI with BDI used as a fall guy!



.
 
What doesn’t work about a BDI theory for me involves the actual scene. As midwest mama points out, what would have been so different this night, since some think BR and JB had participated in this activity before.

Bear with me on this possible scenario which seems improbable at the end. I can imagine a big fight between JB and BR after the pineapple, because it may have been that JB showed up downstairs and took some pineapple out of the bowl which was BR’s. (Remember the interview where BR can no longer drink out of his soda can, because the psychologist had mistakenly grabbed his soda can and taken a sip.) Then PR sends them up to get in bed. But the fight continues, with BR thinking, ok you ruined my pineapple, I’m going to mess up your box of chocolate. In the kertuffle, JB falls on one of her tiaras on the floor and gets the abrasion on her cheek (which leaves some blood on the pillow). So then there is a sexual assault in the bed, and here’s where I can’t see how a head strike and an assault ensue. BR just happens to have an item to strike her in hand? Doesn’t make sense.

Chrishope and UKguy think she was put into a coma during the assault somehow and the rest is staging. It stretches my imagination how a parent could strike an unconscious child. But if so, which of the parents would be capable of such a callous action. The unobvious one who was so cordial? JMHO and IDK.


I don't necessarily think the blow to the head is staging, though that can't be ruled out. I just think the crime scene looks more like an unplanned event than a planned one.

I think it's highly unlikely a prepubescent 9 year old sexually assaulted his sister. Possible, but not probable. To the extent that I understand your comment, I agree that it's unlikely the person doing the assault had something in hand at the time. But something could have been nearby "close at hand" at the time?

I've never believed JB was hit to silence her. The "scream" is highly questionable - because the source, Melony Stanton, is highly questionable. (Might have been negative energy. Might have been a different night. But after some coaching, she heard an audible scream. ) But even if JB screamed, a hand over the mouth is quicker at making her quiet than reaching for something, rearing back, and swinging it at her. She could scream 2 or 3 times in that interval.
 
I don't necessarily think the blow to the head is staging, though that can't be ruled out. I just think the crime scene looks more like an unplanned event than a planned one.

I think it's highly unlikely a prepubescent 9 year old sexually assaulted his sister. Possible, but not probable. To the extent that I understand your comment, I agree that it's unlikely the person doing the assault had something in hand at the time. But something could have been nearby "close at hand" at the time?

I've never believed JB was hit to silence her. The "scream" is highly questionable - because the source, Melony Stanton, is highly questionable. (Might have been negative energy. Might have been a different night. But after some coaching, she heard an audible scream. ) But even if JB screamed, a hand over the mouth is quicker at making her quiet than reaching for something, rearing back, and swinging it at her. She could scream 2 or 3 times in that interval.

Chrishope,
Could there be a difference here, i.e. reality vs probability, you seem to be promoting the ludic fallacy.

Do you have acturial tables for familial abuse to hand, can you compute the figures for a particular method of abuse?



.
 
Chrishope,
Could there be a difference here, i.e. reality vs probability, you seem to be promoting the ludic fallacy.

Do you have acturial tables for familial abuse to hand, can you compute the figures for a particular method of abuse?

.

Chrishope,
Could there be a difference here, i.e. reality vs probability, you seem to be promoting the ludic fallacy.


For the Ludic fallacy to apply, you'd have to show that statistics on child abuse don't apply because the JBR case is a rare event that has some special cause not captured in the normal statistics, and therefore can't be predicted by game theory.

Either that or you have to be saying that no crime statistics apply, to this or any other case, because the stats can never sufficiently model all the variables of real life.

But of course, I'm not applying game theory. Nor am I concerned with probability of something yet to occur.
This crime has already happened.

We can say with certainty that the molestation was done by a man or a woman (or both). We can say with a certainty that it was done by a child or an adult (or both). I don't think I've oversimplified the possible perpetrator combinations - Human; male, female, adult, child.

We can look up statistics on abuse and see what % are committed by women, men, and children. Since we are not trying to predict the outcome of a future event, and there is, unfortunately, nothing very rare or special about child molestation, I don't see how the Ludic fallacy applies.

If you think there is some special feature of this case which makes molestation statistics, broken down for age and gender, inapplicable, it would be interesting if you'd specify.

Do you have acturial tables for familial abuse to hand, can you compute the figures for a particular method of abuse?
.

It takes about 10 seconds to find stats on child abuse. Here's one site

http://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/child-sexual-abuse.aspx

that suggests 23% of reported cases of child sexual abuse are committed by persons under 18.

So, if we get back to my statement, which you bolded in your response -I think it's highly unlikely a prepubescent 9 year old sexually assaulted his sister. Possible, but not probable. - it would seem the statistics indicate it's less likely that the molestation was done by someone under 18 than someone over 18.

Perhaps it's the exact wording that you have a problem with? Perhaps instead of "highly unlikely" I should say that a prepubescent 9 year old is less likely the perp than an adult male.

Of course there are many many sites with statistics that need to be defined and analyzed. It's not clear that "molestation" is the same as "abuse". We could could further refine, if we could locate the data, for "sex crimes" that involve exposure as opposed to penetration of a victim. Often the two types of "molestation" are lumped together in crime statistics.

Unfortunately a lot of this is not broken down further.
Because stats are often defined in different ways it is difficult to pin down exact percentages and apply them. I've seen stats ranging from 4% to 33% for female offenders, with significant differences vis-a-vis male or female victims.

I have not seen breakdowns for various age groups under 18. I would strongly suspect that there is a lower % of molesters at each lower age level, though I can't say for sure without looking up many many more statistics.

I have assumed BR to be prepubescent, as he was 9 at the time. That could be wrong. Also puberty is not a requirement for sexual abuse.

So, since you and I agree (I think) that this is an RDI case, and RDI leaves us with exactly 3 suspects (individually or in any combination) I don't see the problem with saying that among the 3, the 9 year old is less likely to be our molester than the adult male.

It's also true that the adult female is statistically less likely the molester as compared to the adult male.

None of this is meant to suggest that BR is "ruled out", just that he's not the most likely molester.
 
For the Ludic fallacy to apply, you'd have to show that statistics on child abuse don't apply because the JBR case is a rare event that has some special cause not captured in the normal statistics, and therefore can't be predicted by game theory.

Either that or you have to be saying that no crime statistics apply, to this or any other case, because the stats can never sufficiently model all the variables of real life.

But of course, I'm not applying game theory. Nor am I concerned with probability of something yet to occur.
This crime has already happened.

We can say with certainty that the molestation was done by a man or a woman (or both). We can say with a certainty that it was done by a child or an adult (or both). I don't think I've oversimplified the possible perpetrator combinations - Human; male, female, adult, child.

We can look up statistics on abuse and see what % are committed by women, men, and children. Since we are not trying to predict the outcome of a future event, and there is, unfortunately, nothing very rare or special about child molestation, I don't see how the Ludic fallacy applies.

If you think there is some special feature of this case which makes molestation statistics, broken down for age and gender, inapplicable, it would be interesting if you'd specify.



It takes about 10 seconds to find stats on child abuse. Here's one site

http://www.apa.org/pi/families/resources/child-sexual-abuse.aspx

that suggests 23% of reported cases of child sexual abuse are committed by persons under 18.

So, if we get back to my statement, which you bolded in your response -I think it's highly unlikely a prepubescent 9 year old sexually assaulted his sister. Possible, but not probable. - it would seem the statistics indicate it's less likely that the molestation was done by someone under 18 than someone over 18.

Perhaps it's the exact wording that you have a problem with? Perhaps instead of "highly unlikely" I should say that a prepubescent 9 year old is less likely the perp than an adult male.

Of course there are many many sites with statistics that need to be defined and analyzed. It's not clear that "molestation" is the same as "abuse". We could could further refine, if we could locate the data, for "sex crimes" that involve exposure as opposed to penetration of a victim. Often the two types of "molestation" are lumped together in crime statistics.

Unfortunately a lot of this is not broken down further.
Because stats are often defined in different ways it is difficult to pin down exact percentages and apply them. I've seen stats ranging from 4% to 33% for female offenders, with significant differences vis-a-vis male or female victims.

I have not seen breakdowns for various age groups under 18. I would strongly suspect that there is a lower % of molesters at each lower age level, though I can't say for sure without looking up many many more statistics.

I have assumed BR to be prepubescent, as he was 9 at the time. That could be wrong. Also puberty is not a requirement for sexual abuse.

So, since you and I agree (I think) that this is an RDI case, and RDI leaves us with exactly 3 suspects (individually or in any combination) I don't see the problem with saying that among the 3, the 9 year old is less likely to be our molester than the adult male.

It's also true that the adult female is statistically less likely the molester as compared to the adult male.

None of this is meant to suggest that BR is "ruled out", just that he's not the most likely molester.

Chrishope,
It is the wording. You seem to be generalising from very specific circumstances. Where there is a very large hole in your knowledge, in statistical terms, i.e. you cannot measure those cases where abuse goes unrecorded.

This is an exemplar of the ludic fallacy, which is not particular to game theory, but represents a faith in some statistical theory, e.g. Credit Crunch and the banks assumption that the bell curve was a good model for markets.

That apart your what you write makes a lot of sense. Accepting what you say about Patsy, I would just rule her out. So the odds become 50:50 when you consider JDI and BDI.

Without more information its difficult to select one theory over the other. I chose BDI because of the amateurish crime-scene.

Although one thing that is interesting is that Kolar has suggested it started in the breakfast bar. That must mean he knows something else, something he has not released in the public domain?


.
 
Boys of that age are certainly capable of sexual assault - even full intercourse. Boys far younger have erections. BR may not have had viable ejaculate, but he had the "equipment". And he was certainly capable of digital penetration or using an object. Don't let the "pre-pubescent" age fool you. Kids that age are very aware of sex (sadly). They know that "tab B fits into slot A".
 

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