Happenings of December 26

[tweezybird]

Probably the most popular "adult" Dr Seuss book is "Oh, the Places You'll Go". It's often given as a graduation gift, maybe someone gave it to JAR for that reason. I used to work at a bookstore, we sold hundreds of copies every year at graduation time. Maybe that is the "adult" Seuss book referred to?

See the link for it:

http://www.brainpickings.org/2012/03/02/dr-seuss-seven-lady-godivas/

 

[questfortrue]

There was an item which Kolar discusses at some point (one of his interviews, I believe) which I think is deserving of repeating and evaluating further.

It’s been suggested by Kolar that JR would not place himself in penal jeopardy by lying to his future son in law about when he found JB, which JR told him was 11:00 am. It could have been a JR slip, but it’s a clue some may have interpreted as meaning JR had no participation in the crime and cover up, as he only found her that morning.

There’s a few reasons I believe JR manifested early involvement in the event. I take issue with the idea of no involvement because of some insider scuttlebutt which PB spilled once (probably accidentally) on the air. It was only mentioned once, but it was profoundly interesting that PB stated JR phoned lawyer MB before 911 was called. Also, the crime scene JR describes to authorities with boxes and a chair in front of the train room, were disputed by both Detective French and FW, who did not see that at all prior to when JR said he was down there. If that statement by JR were true at all, it would tell me someone was hiding down there and pulled the boxes and chair up against the door, in order to elude authorities. Outlandishly preposterous, imo. There’s also the report of JR fibers, which we’ve been over many times. It points to him not having changed from the party.

It’s also been postulated that only PR could have gone “over the top” dramatically to have created that RN. I still believe PR wrote it out, with her sharpie and on her notebook. But I disagree that the content is only PR’s. That RN has definitely a “campy” veneer, like a bad crime film. One only has to listen to some of JR’s explanations to get a feel for what I consider “campy.” His tales to the police in Atlanta about the break-in; his explanation of coming through the train room window; his reading the RN on his hands and knees in his underwear because standing up and placing it on the counter to read would take too much time; his description of how he dealt with items for laundry or dry cleaning. The explanations are not just evasive but also puerile, as though he never graduated from the “dog grabbing his backpack and eating his homework” school of explanations. JMO

 

[CorallaroC]

Hi Questfortrue, good post! I agree with the idea that the words "campy" and "puerile" are good descriptions of the odd stories he told. I would also add "creepy" considering both stories (his own break-in and how he read the ransom note) featured him in his underwear. Not a pleasant word picture! Just now I wanted to double-check the story about the later break-in at the house in Atlanta when an intruder allegedly locked him in the bathroom ugh to make sure that story didn't also include him in his underwear! (archived article here: http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2001/21lrams.html)

Also, does anyone remember how we heard about him having photos of his eldest (and deceased) daughter in his private bathroom? IMO it's impossible to ignore the creepiness of some of these details. JMO

 

[questfortrue]

Hi, CorallaroC. That info about JR's photo of Beth has been published a couple of places, but the one I recall is from PMPT. It's a quote from housekeeper LW - After Beth died, John didn’t have a lot of pictures of Melinda and John Andrew around—just photos of Beth, even in his bathroom. He’d written a poem to her called “Daddy’s Little Girl” that he kept on his dresser where he put his watch and loose change every night. Right where he could see it every day. Twice a day, really. I remember some of that poem. It was a “Your First Steps” kind of thing. He wrote, “And the best thing of the day is to look after daddy’s little girl…” and “You are growing older with woman looks that are now clear.”

 

[tml]

Hi, CorallaroC. That info about JR's photo of Beth has been published a couple of places, but the one I recall is from PMPT. It's a quote from housekeeper LW - After Beth died, John didn’t have a lot of pictures of Melinda and John Andrew around—just photos of Beth, even in his bathroom. He’d written a poem to her called “Daddy’s Little Girl” that he kept on his dresser where he put his watch and loose change every night. Right where he could see it every day. Twice a day, really. I remember some of that poem. It was a “Your First Steps” kind of thing. He wrote, “And the best thing of the day is to look after daddy’s little girl…” and “You are growing older with woman looks that are now clear.”

Interesting the stark change between JR's reaction to Beth's death and his to JBR's. I've read numerous accounts describing JR as totally devastated after Beth died, wailing and moaning through the night. Compare this to the man who, mere weeks after his young child is brutally murdered, claimed to "not be angry". WHAT?! If anything I would expect an innocent parent to be more upset about the murdered child than the one who died in an accident...not that losing a child in any way is not in and of itself awful. This reaction by JR indicates to me, as a lot of his actions do, that maybe this WAS an accident and a botched cover-up.

 

[Sand871]

As I do. Assuming that he actually said it, what do you think JR meant when he said "this is an inside job"? That's not something you would say about an intruder sneaking in off the street. An inside job to me implies someone from inside the family, but I don't understand why JR would say this (if he did).

He consistently and quite subtly tries to pass blame during and after the investigation. To his wife, to people who came to his house that day.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have always felt that Patsy and JR wanted to make their housekeeper, LHP, the focus of suspicion right away. They also threw suspicion at others, to be sure, but I think they saw LHP as the perfect "patsy" (no pun intended). She was familiar with the family, had a key, was under financial stress (she had recently asked Patsy for a $2000 loan to help pay her rent). They also considered her to be of a lower socioeconomic level- she wouldn't have had the financial or educational resources to fight back. I think SHE is who JR was referring to when he made that comment to Det Arndt. I also think it is very telling that JR made that comment as he placed his daughter's dead body on the floor, having JUST brought her up. I can think of a LOT of things a father in that situation would say, but that isn't one of them. Not at THAT time. That was a comment that would be made to police as the investigation proceeded. Not at the very moment you supposedly discover your "kidnapped" daughter dead in your basement.
I don't know ALL of Arndt's perceptions, but as the scene is described, it doesn't seem like JR is all that surprised to have found JB dead in the basement. I think if it were me, I'd be screaming so loud you'd hear me across town. I am sure Arndt picked up on this as well.
The housekeeper gave DNA and handwriting samples right away, and nothing was found to link her to the crime scene or body. Good thing, too, because she just might not have been able to fight back. The DA would have railroaded her right into a guilty verdict, as they tried to do with JMK.
I think JR planned what to say to Arndt in advance- it seemed like he couldn't WAIT to get those words out.

 

[midwest mama]

:goodpost: Excellent points. I never thought about the timing of the comment from JR with regard to his handling of JB. And the way he was carrying her. I would have instinctively clutched her near and raced up those steps screaming all the way to call 911. And someone would have had to peel her away from my clutch. JR seemed to "offer up" the body to go along with the suggestion he offered up of it being an inside job. So cold....ugh.

 

[DeeDee249]

Arndt, like most police officers, is trained to "read" people in situations like this. Lets face it, there have been other situations where parents report a child "missing" who later turns up dead and it comes out that the parents are involved (or stepparent or mother's boyfriend, etc). I think Arndt was carefully observing both parents that day- and likely had a sense that something wasn't right. In other words, her "hinky-meter" as we say, went sky-high. I am sure she was suspicious of JR within a short time of being there. His "disappearance", his bee-line (her words) he made for the basement when she would have thought he'd go right to her room when she asked him to take a look around to see if anything was out of place. But his behavior when he brought JB up from the basement, having "found" her immediately, his lack of emotion, his inane question "Is she dead?" when she CLEARLY was dead....and maybe even his oddly-timed comment about it being "an inside job- ALL of this was likely kicking around in her mind. And as she said, she found herself mentally "counting her bullets" incase he realized she knew he was responsible somehow and challenged her violently. She didn't know whether he had a gun himself of whether his "posse of friends would join in if he attacked her.

 

[midwest mama]

As much flack as Arndt has had to accept for mishandling the crime scene (somewhat deserved) we do have to recognize that she had a good deal of expertise in handling cases related to sexual assaults and even those involving children. Her instincts deserve recognition and affirmation.

 

[andreww]

As much flack as Arndt has had to accept for mishandling the crime scene (somewhat deserved) we do have to recognize that she had a good deal of expertise in handling cases related to sexual assaults and even those involving children. Her instincts deserve recognition and affirmation.

Yes, but like every other officer initially on the case, she suspected the Ramsey's. And like every other officer that suspected the Ramsey's, she was removed from the case.


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[midwest mama]

Cynic posted a great diagram on the IDI thread to which I responded my opinion on the placement of the snack dishes. I did not feel it was the correct thread for additional comment due to trying to refrain from having an RDI slant on anything further.

Considering the position of the snack dishes I don't see PR involved in that and now can understand why Kolar believed something might have begun in that area between the two kids. If BR had ended up getting himself that snack and was wanting to sit there with it and have a look at the gingerbread houses and JB came and took a piece of his pineapple, then BR might have gone after her.

But let's back up first. What if just after both kids are finally put to bed and both parents are up in their room, BR comes into JB'S room and whatever all happened ended up with BR smearing his feces streaked p.j. bottoms (Kolar said those found in JB'S room were thought to be BR'S) on her candy box because she didn't want to share. At this point, JB might have been very upset and needing to change into something clean, while BR took off to also freshen up and then go down to get himself a snack because he was hungry.

Maybe JB wasn't ready to end the fight and she trailed BR down to the breakfast room, snatching a piece of his pineapple, only to set BR into further vengeance.

This could account for why Kolar believed something got started there?

At any rate, if none of the above happened, the forensics tell us BR handled the snack dishes and JB ate some of that pineapple. If PR fixed the snack (her prints on bowl) she didn't have much concern the kids were still up, eating in an area they wouldn't usually use for such, when they had such an early morning call for their flight the next day. It doesn't fit....unless she knew there was no worry about an early flight (premeditation? ) or she wasn't aware that maybe JR was attending to the kids having a snack. I always thought it was odd that he said the spoon in the bowl was PATSY'S good silver. Why not just say, "yes, that spoon is ours."

 

[andreww]

I think it's safe to say that the pineapple bowl wasn't part of the staging because we know JB ate pineapple shortly before she died. BRs prints on the bowl put him at the scene as well. But we also have the glass of iced tea with Patsy's prints in the same location. Patsy's denial of having made the tea leads me to believe that she isnt being truthful about her involvement in this part of the night, and her prints may have come from putting the clean glass away. However, iced tea does not seem like something one of the kids would make late at night, especially if they were being sneaky about it.

It would be interesting to see the positioning of those prints on the glass. If they came from taking the clean glass out of the dishwasher, the would likely be upside down, because the glass usually goes in the dishwasher upside down. If the prints are right side up, it would strongly suggest that Patsy made that tea.

Nonetheless, if Patsy isn't being truthful about this, it would suggest that the Ramsey's were lying when they said JB was fast asleep when she came home, and stayed asleep for the rest of the evening. Kind of hard to believe that a kid, amped up on Christmas would fall asleep so early IMO.


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[DeeDee249]

I think it's safe to say that the pineapple bowl wasn't part of the staging because we know JB ate pineapple shortly before she died. BRs prints on the bowl put him at the scene as well. But we also have the glass of iced tea with Patsy's prints in the same location. Patsy's denial of having made the tea leads me to believe that she isnt being truthful about her involvement in this part of the night, and her prints may have come from putting the clean glass away. However, iced tea does not seem like something one of the kids would make late at night, especially if they were being sneaky about it.

It would be interesting to see the positioning of those prints on the glass. If they came from taking the clean glass out of the dishwasher, the would likely be upside down, because the glass usually goes in the dishwasher upside down. If the prints are right side up, it would strongly suggest that Patsy made that tea.

Nonetheless, if Patsy isn't being truthful about this, it would suggest that the Ramsey's were lying when they said JB was fast asleep when she came home, and stayed asleep for the rest of the evening. Kind of hard to believe that a kid, amped up on Christmas would fall asleep so early IMO.


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I have always had some reservations about that glass with the tea bag. For one thing, I have never seen where there was a residue of iced tea actually IN that glass. I can easily envision someone making HOT tea and putting the spent tea bag in whatever was handy- like an empty glass. Doesn't mean the tea bag was used to make iced tea. I can see a kid making iced tea with a tea bag and water from the tap as opposed to boiling water in a kettle. Or possibly making it in a microwave. But at this point, I am not completely convinced the glass with the tea bag actually had iced tea in it- maybe it did, maybe not. I know BR's prints are on that glass, as well as the bowl of pineapple. Patsy's are on the bowl too. Not surprising- she was likely the one who put it in the bowl originally. But BR could have been the one to get that bowl from the fridge that night. JB likely just picked up chunks with her fingers right from the bowl. Or the spoon could have been used. Never saw where the spoon was tested for prints or saliva. Too bad.
Another thing to consider is that the two items -bowl of pineapple and glass with tea bag- may not have been used at the same time. We KNOW that JB ate pineapple not long before she died (within 2 hours). But we do NOT know whether the glass and tea bag were used at that same time or just happened to be on the table from a previous use. Patsy was a notoriously messy housekeeper- the counter was strewn with breakfast dishes, pancake batter, bowls, etc that were never cleaned up before the Rs went to the White's. Patsy was expecting the housekeeper to come and clean after they had left for Charlevoix, so she just left it for her, I presume, because she didn't clean it up that night either. That glass and tea bag could have been there for days. Fingerprints do not disclose when they were left from a scientific aspect- only from a circumstantial aspect.

 

[andreww]

Good point about the tea bag. I had never considered the idea that the bag had been simply dumped in the glass. I wonder if a used teacup was found anywhere else in the house?

And Patsy's mothering skills don't seem to be very good either. Not sure what time the family got up on Christmas, but having young kids, I assume it was vey early. So after opening gifts she makes pancakes, which I couldn't imagine happening much later than 10:00 am. The kids then go hungry until dinner at the Whites? Even then, she has no clue as to whether JB even ate anything there! This is a six year old girl for gods sake! As a parent you have to make sure the eat properly, three times a day not just once!


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[UKGuy]

Good point about the tea bag. I had never considered the idea that the bag had been simply dumped in the glass. I wonder if a used teacup was found anywhere else in the house?

And Patsy's mothering skills don't seem to be very good either. Not sure what time the family got up on Christmas, but having young kids, I assume it was vey early. So after opening gifts she makes pancakes, which I couldn't imagine happening much later than 10:00 am. The kids then go hungry until dinner at the Whites? Even then, she has no clue as to whether JB even ate anything there! This is a six year old girl for gods sake! As a parent you have to make sure the eat properly, three times a day not just once!


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andreww,
The breakfast bar completely escaped the R's notice. This suggests a disconnect between the breakfast bar and JonBenet ending up in the basement, otherwise the R's would have cleaned up the breakfast bar. Since the pineapple in the serving bowl contradicts the R's version of events.

So if Kolar is serious regarding his speculation about BR and JonBenet then he must know something we do not.

BR's fingerprints were on the the glass and the serving bowl. If BR had simply dropped a teabag into the glass then his fingerprints need not be on the glass at all. From memory it was Patsy who said BR was the resident tea-drinker, potentially ruling out another person as having made a drink of tea?

IMO the breakfast-bar scenario appears to have been left as it was after BR and JonBenet retired to say JonBenet's bedroom?

JonBenet's hair was styled with two assymetric ponytails, so either these were done directly after returning from the White's or after she snacked pineapple, can anyone see BR doing this, I cannot?

So it appears Patsy readied JonBenet for bed, possibly even placing her in bed? Later BR treats JonBenet to a pineapple snack, alternatively Patsy prepares the snack, then styles JonBenet's ponytails, putting her to bed. All the R's would have been aware they had to bed down early as they were flying the next morning.

I reckon both BR and JonBenet would have been dressed in their respective pajamas ready for bed, and Patsy preparing the pineapple snack could be an inducement or reward for good behaviour?

That BR's fingerprints appear on more than one breakfast bar item is more than coincidence, it suggests his presence, but does not conclusively demonstrate it. Just as his pants, as alleged by Kolar, being found in JonBenet's bedroom suggest his presence there too?

ETA: Of course if Patsy prepared the pineapple-snack then why did she not cleanup the breakfast-bar in the early hours of the next day, you have a similar question regarding her knowledge about the size-12's and her statement to the investigators?

So there are good grounds for assuming Patsy styled JonBenet's assymetric ponytails, and that some other R prepared the pineapple snack, which is consistent with Kolar's speculation?

.
.

 

[andreww]

UKGuy

All good points. However, I believe Patsy didn't clean up the snack mess simply because to her knowledge, JB didn't take part in it. I see JB gliding through whilst Patsy is preoccupied, possibly making tea, and grabbing a few chunks of pineapple out of Burkes bowl. This would make sense because if the Rs had been aware of the pineapple snack, they would have adjusted their story to include it. For example "we carried her up to bed, but she awoke as we were getting her changed. She said she was hungry so I brought her a few pieces of pineapple as a snack." But if the Rs weren't aware of her snack, they likely decided it was best to say she was asleep when they got home and they put her straight to bed. Its and easy story for everyone in the family to keep straight. The answer to every question was "she was asleep in bed". Simple.

When the autopsy revealed the recently eaten pineapple, their story began to unravel. They were locked in to the "She was sleeping" version of events. So now you have to assume that a kidnapper took her down for a snack. But didn't the Ramsey's feel she was stun gunned? So when did she eat?

Somehow I think that little girl gave us the biggest piece to solving this puzzle when she innocently grabbed a handful of Burkes snack.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy

All good points. However, I believe Patsy didn't clean up the snack mess simply because to her knowledge, JB didn't take part in it. I see JB gliding through whilst Patsy is preoccupied, possibly making tea, and grabbing a few chunks of pineapple out of Burkes bowl. This would make sense because if the Rs had been aware of the pineapple snack, they would have adjusted their story to include it. For example "we carried her up to bed, but she awoke as we were getting her changed. She said she was hungry so I brought her a few pieces of pineapple as a snack." But if the Rs weren't aware of her snack, they likely decided it was best to say she was asleep when they got home and they put her straight to bed. Its and easy story for everyone in the family to keep straight. The answer to every question was "she was asleep in bed". Simple.

When the autopsy revealed the recently eaten pineapple, their story began to unravel. They were locked in to the "She was sleeping" version of events. So now you have to assume that a kidnapper took her down for a snack. But didn't the Ramsey's feel she was stun gunned? So when did she eat?

Somehow I think that little girl gave us the biggest piece to solving this puzzle when she innocently grabbed a handful of Burkes snack.

andreww,
Fresh cut pineapple with condensed milk was JonBenet's favorite not BR's. I'm assuming both PR and JR never knew about the Pineapple Snack otherwise they would have cleaned up the breakfast bar or/and changed their version of events.

Also PR's fingerprints were only on the serving bowl. BR's fingerprints were on both the serving bowl and the drinking glass. Also BR's touch-dna was found on the barbie nightgown deposited in the wine-cellar.

It looks more like JonBenet and Burke snacked without their parents knowledge, with Burke fetching the pineapple for JonBenet. After Burke had sipped his tea and JonBenet snacked her pineapple, but note, not it all, they left the breakfast bar for where?

Kolar thinks it all kicked off in the Breakfast Bar with JonBenet going from there down to the basement?

 

[andreww]

andreww,
Fresh cut pineapple with condensed milk was JonBenet's favorite not BR's. I'm assuming both PR and JR never knew about the Pineapple Snack otherwise they would have cleaned up the breakfast bar or/and changed their version of events.

Also PR's fingerprints were only on the serving bowl. BR's fingerprints were on both the serving bowl and the drinking glass. Also BR's touch-dna was found on the barbie nightgown deposited in the wine-cellar.

It looks more like JonBenet and Burke snacked without their parents knowledge, with Burke fetching the pineapple for JonBenet. After Burke had sipped his tea and JonBenet snacked her pineapple, but note, not it all, they left the breakfast bar for where?

Kolar thinks it all kicked off in the Breakfast Bar with JonBenet going from there down to the basement?

That's a reasonable theory, but I respectfully disagree with it for the following reason. If Burke and JB had slipped down to the breakfast bar for a late night snack, it would be logical to assume that J&P were upstairs on the 3rd floor. It would also be reasonable to assume that if they had retired to their bedroom, that Patsy would have already changed from her party clothes. However, we know that she was wearing those clothes later in the night because of the red fibers found in the paint tray and the garrote.

My contention is that JB was never asleep that night. The entire family was awake, and things began to go downhill not long after they returned home, because Patsy would have more than likely put on something more comfortable. That's the first thing most people would do.


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[Sand871]

I wonder if the Ramseys would have been able to get the ransom over Christmas anyway, wouldn't the banks be shut?