Has the case fizzled a bit?

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]The coroner said they asked him to hold the body to get the Ramseys to talk. not that he needed to hold the body.
http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/04/25-2.html
The headline of his story is pure spin.
“Coroner: police tried to keep body to force an interview.”
Reading that, one would assume that
the Coronor actually said that. (That is NOT what he said.)
and
that the request to hold the body was EXCLUSIVELY for the purpose of forcing an interview.

Evans is a known and self-confessed Ramsey shill, in the same category as Paula Woodward.
John and Patsy Ramsey turned to Evans as their contact at the paper to discuss their daughter JonBenet's 1996 murder.
http://www.dailycamera.com/archivesearch/ci_13076177


My personal impression from a careful reading of all the accounts is that Eller wanted to hold the body as long as possible to ensure that all possible testing could be completed.
The autopsy had radically changed the case. There were now a number of issues that demanded answers.
What had caused an extensive skull fracture?
Who had been responsible for the chronic sexual abuse of JonBenet?
Who had fed JonBenet the pineapple?
Who had been responsible for cleaning up JonBenet?
The liquid that was found on one area of JonBenet, was it semen?

The autopsy of JonBenet was performed on December, 27th 1996. It is NOT in any way unusual for investigators to withhold the body for 2 or 3 days, the body has become evidence. Theoretically the body can be exhumed for further investigation, but exhumation is costly and usually unnecessary if all appropriate examination is completed at or just after the autopsy is performed.
The body was released within 24 hours of the autopsy on the 28th.
How can this be construed as holding the body for ransom?
Why was there pressure to release the body on the day that the autopsy was performed?
Why the hurry to bury the body?
The parents should have welcomed the idea that every possible avenue was being pursued.
They should have also been available to answer the questions that the autopsy had raised.

The “police” version:
Police on Wednesday said they were "reluctant to release JonBenet's body because they were not sure all the necessary forensic work had been completed, nor had they had an opportunity to discuss the circumstances of JonBenet's death with the parents."

The DA’s version:
District Attorney Alex Hunter said Thursday there may have been other considerations that led police to ask the body be withheld for additional time.
"For example, was there everything that the CBI (Colorado Bureau of Investigation) needed? Had a pediatrician been involved? A child abuse expert involved?" Hunter said. He said that, all told, the body underwent about 12 hours of examination.

The Coroner’s version:
The request from investigators came through Tom Faure, chief medical examiner for the coroner's office, on Dec. 28, Meyer said.
"My impression at the time was it was sort of a trial balloon, wondering if we could do that," Meyer said. "It was, could we do this ... not necessarily to force the family, but could we put a hold on the body until they do come to an interview."

Steve Thomas’ account:
By midafternoon (December 27th,) after studying the autopsy results, Eller still had unanswered questions about the body. What about the massive skull fracture? What and where was the murder weapon? What about the vaginal trauma? A lot of points needed to be covered.
Chief Koby pointed out to him that the body itself had become evidence, and to release it at this point could affect the investigation. Eller and the coroner agreed.
But only a few minutes passed before Deputy District Attorney Pete Hofstrom called to say that the Ramseys were asking about burial. His appearance raised an important question that was not addressed: Why were the Ramseys already communicating through the DA’s people rather than directly to the investigating detectives? That indicated they were talking through a private lawyer, and with the strong links between the DA’s office and the defense attorneys in Boulder, that could only mean trouble for the police.
Eller told Hofstrom that Koby, the coroner, and he had decided to hold the body for further evidentiary tests, and thought no more of it.
His attention at the moment was focused on setting up formal Q-and-A sessions with the Ramseys. The police expected that both the Ramseys would want to cooperate as soon as possible in the hunt for the killer of their child. We had hundreds of questions, questions only they could answer, because the situation had changed so dramatically from the time police first arrived on the scene of what had been thought to be a kidnapping. Eller assigned Detective Arndt to arrange a formal interview.
A short time later an agitated Pete Hofstrom came into Eller’s office.
“Pete, we need to talk to the Ramseys,” the commander told the prosecutor.
“You can’t ransom the body for an interview,” Hofstrom shot back.
“We are not ‘ransoming’ the body. It’s just premature to release it.”
“You can’t ransom the body,” Hofstrom repeated, as if he had not heard Eller’s words.
“I’m not suggesting that,” the commander said, laying out the forensic and evidentiary concerns.
“You can’t ransom the body,” Hofstrom insisted for a third time.
Eller grew irritable. “Pete, they are unrelated issues. Go make your deal with them, that’s what you do. We need an interview.”
We would later learn that Hofstrom went to see Mike Bynum, who was already representing the Ramseys behind the scenes, and announced, “We’ve got a problem.” We was the word that shook us.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 51 – 52

Jim Kolar’s account:
Investigative files revealed that Eller had not even considered this option until Saturday, December 28th, around the time that non-testimonial evidence was being collected from the immediate family. Even then, it was reported that his thoughts of holding on to the body of JonBenét was not for the intention of holding her for “ransom” in exchange for a family interview, but to determine if there were any other forensic examinations that could have
been conducted that would help shed light on the mechanics of her murder.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 319
 
You will never change my mind posting quotes from JK or ST. Neither of them are too credible to me. Just theorists since no one has been able to get their theory to court.

The coroner is said what he said. The headline not withstanding, It is what it is.
 
Stop personalizing your posts and bickering.

Salem
 
No. It is not a flag. It is the attorney who has been hired doing what he thinks should be done to get the best representation for his client. He is being diligent and learning facts first hand. Nothing flaggy about that. No more than the R's retaining counsel to help them navigate what would happen next.

No more than all the victims that hire Gloria Allred on their behalf to represent them and counsel them even if she is not going to court for them.

No! That is your OPINION, NOT FACT! Why is it that when RDI say anything it's opinion, but when you say something it's always a fact? There's a word for people that do what they accuse others of doing, and I'm sure you know what it is!
 
The R's hired a lawyer. Immediately he started , well, Lawyering. That is not a flag that is just how it works.
 
The R's hired a lawyer. Immediately he started , well, Lawyering. That is not a flag that is just how it works.

Nice deflection. Why can't you answer the question? Why is there one set of rules for you, and another set for RDI? I guess I missed the memo that said you get to determine what is fact and what is opinion, what is a red flag and what isn't, and "just how it works". :facepalm:
 
Nice deflection. Why can't you answer the question? Why is there one set of rules for you, and another set for RDI? I guess I missed the memo that said you get to determine what is fact and what is opinion, what is a red flag and what isn't, and "just how it works". :facepalm:

That is not deflection that is what happened.

The R's hired an atty. The Attorney then started working for them. That is usually how it works. That is not a red flag. Getting an atty is not a flag. IT is a right.
 
yes nom, lots of double standards:

-- ST and JK wrote books to make money but the R's only wrote DOI to get their story out, never mind the huge advance

-- the DA's words are "spin" but meyer's are totally believable even though both comments were obtained via a reporter first hand

-- there is no evidence this case is any form of RDI, yet no evidence has been offered to illustrate much less prove IDI

-- BR would've turned into a "monster" had he accidentally killed his sister, but, that didn't happen to will chapman http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Entertain...healing-death-daughter-album/story?id=9329578


any others i've missed?
 
That is not a flag. That is an atty looking out for his client. What he is being paid to do. Step in and take the reigns while the family grieves. To not let things that are important slip past.

If they hadn't done it it could have been something that caused issues later. There is no flag with this. Just an attorney decision to be diligent

Stepping in and questioning people before an investigation is concluded is obstruction, bordering on tampering.

A lawyer in this instance is hired to protect the family interests and rights, not frame future testimony in a court case they clearly saw coming. Double red flag.
 
yes nom, lots of double standards:

-- ST and JK wrote books to make money but the R's only wrote DOI to get their story out, never mind the huge advance

-- the DA's words are "spin" but meyer's are totally believable even though both comments were obtained via a reporter first hand

-- there is no evidence this case is any form of RDI, yet no evidence has been offered to illustrate much less prove IDI

-- BR would've turned into a "monster" had he accidentally killed his sister, but, that didn't happen to will chapman http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Entertain...healing-death-daughter-album/story?id=9329578

any others i've missed?

Excellent points Red! I would add:

--JK (and ST IIRC) used their own $ to publish, and JK probably won't recoup his investment, while the Rs made over $1M minimum for DOI. Then there's TO$O$ too.

--"Ransom the body" is a term that came straight out of the mouth of an R attorney, NOT Meyer, as cynic pointed out earlier, but it doesn't matter because that's not what the headline said.

--Local newspaper reporters, hand picked by the Rs for an interview, are totally reliable sources, but respected LE aren't.

--RDI are required to provide proof for every statement made, which is then refused or ignored, but IDI can state opinion and demand it be viewed as fact.
 
Excellent points Red! I would add:

--JK (and ST IIRC) used their own $ to publish, and JK probably won't recoup his investment, while the Rs made over $1M minimum for DOI. Then there's TO$O$ too.

--"Ransom the body" is a term that came straight out of the mouth of an R attorney, NOT Meyer, as cynic pointed out earlier, but it doesn't matter because that's not what the headline said.

--Local newspaper reporters, hand picked by the Rs for an interview, are totally reliable sources, but respected LE aren't.

--RDI are required to provide proof for every statement made, which is then refused or ignored, but IDI can state opinion and demand it be viewed as fact.

It may be a term the r's used because it fits. Someone wanting to hold the body to make them talk, whether they actually did or not, is exactly what that would have been.

Intention is everything. It shows who people are at their core. It shows what people are willing to do to get what they want.
I see a police dept that was incapable of handling this case and at the very least were in over their heads from day 1.

Since then instead they used the media and innuendo to point fingers instead of building a case brick by brick if they thought one was there.

You can state what makes you believe how you do about this case but that does not mean I or others have to accept it. It's just your opinion and feelings of the case. It does not mean we all have to agree to be able to discuss the case. We all have opinions. We are all entitled to them.
 
I see a police dept that was incapable of handling this case and at the very least were in over their heads from day 1.

maybe if the police had been given a thorough and complete autopsy report (evidence), one which might've been accomplished had JB's body actually been held longer as requested or if meyer had conducted a thorough and complete autopsy to begin with, maybe then people wouldn't be so quick to deem the BPD "incapable" even despite the initial mistakes at the house:

"what the coroner forgot": http://extras.denverpost.com/news/green89.htm

Meyer's work has come under severe criticism by colleagues across the country.
 
maybe if the police had been given a thorough and complete autopsy report (evidence), one which might've been accomplished had JB's body actually been held longer as requested or if meyer had conducted a thorough and complete autopsy to begin with, maybe then people wouldn't be so quick to deem the BPD "incapable" even despite the initial mistakes at the house:

"what the coroner forgot": http://extras.denverpost.com/news/green89.htm

http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

Pretty sure this took longer than 10 mins.. People want to carve up every one who has said anything publicly that does indeed help the Ramseys.

AS for the BPD, Maybe just maybe if they had from that very day showed up right away, shut down the crime scene, And secured it there may have been more to find in the way of evidence.
Maybe they should have some point realized they needed help. Wait.. Isn't that why the DA hired Lou Smit? Because of his amazing record in solving crimes? And yet Since LS looked at everything and said he felt it was not the ramseys he is torn apart too.

Maybe just maybe It is time to look at this case from evidence only. Not spin.
 
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

Pretty sure this took longer than 10 mins.. People want to carve up every one who has said anything publicly that does indeed help the Ramseys.
The 10 minutes was a reference to the time spent at the scene, not the duration of the autopsy.

Nationally known coroners have been critical of Meyer's autopsy report in the Ramsey case, saying that Meyer spent only 10 minutes with the little girl's corpse at the scene of the crime and neglected several critical procedures on the autopsy table the following morning.
 
Okay. What was he going to do there. He is a coroner not a crime scene investigator.

Opinion about his techniques and report are just that. Someone coming in after and criticizing. I can not comment truly about that but it seems everyone has an opinion about this case :)

"After all, if Meyer's work is celebrated by his Colorado peers, but found inadequate by modern forensic standards, citizens of Boulder and throughout Colorado should know that."

This is your source for the criticism.
"Speth himself is involved in a politically charged case in New Jersey, where he is under indictment for tampering with evidence in a suicide. The accusation comes from the office of the state's medical examiner, which Speth had criticized for mishandling autopsies."

I would say that what he says, Really does not matter that much..
 
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/jonbenet_ramsey/jonbenet_ramsey_autopsy.pdf

Pretty sure this took longer than 10 mins.. People want to carve up every one who has said anything publicly that does indeed help the Ramseys.
If a poster on any forum decides to post a link, that poster (IMO) should at least take the time to read it themselves, and try to understand what it says.

From the very link (which everyone here is familiar with) provided in the above quoted post, in the very first paragraph, the coroner states the following:
The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20PM. I initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The decedent was laying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt. On removing these two items from the top of the body the decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30PM.
That would be 20 minutes outside the house doing who-knows-what, and a total of 10 minutes inside the house to do the initial examination. I think most posters here know about the things we’ve discussed in the past on numerous occasions that should have been done which would give a much more accurate TOD, but were not. There is no need to go into them here.



AS for the BPD, Maybe just maybe if they had from that very day showed up right away, shut down the crime scene, And secured it there may have been more to find in the way of evidence.
Maybe they should have some point realized they needed help. Wait.. Isn't that why the DA hired Lou Smit? Because of his amazing record in solving crimes? And yet Since LS looked at everything and said he felt it was not the ramseys he is torn apart too.
Maybe if they had taken the advice of the FBI (who was called in for advice, since after all, they have had jurisdiction in child abductions since 1932), they would have looked at the parents (which is what the FBI told them they should do). The parents would have been interviewed separately, and it may have never gone any further than that.



Maybe just maybe It is time to look at this case from evidence only. Not spin.
Uh, yeah, okay. And when someone does, please report back with the results.
 
If a poster on any forum decides to post a link, that poster (IMO) should at least take the time to read it themselves, and try to understand what it says.

From the very link (which everyone here is familiar with) provided in the above quoted post, in the very first paragraph, the coroner states the following:
The body of this six year old female was first seen by me after I was called to an address identified as 755 - 15th street in Boulder, Colorado, on 12/26/96. I arrived at the scene approximately 8 PM on 12/26 and entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20PM. I initially viewed the body in the living room of the house. The decedent was laying on her back on the floor, covered by a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt. On removing these two items from the top of the body the decedent was found to be lying on her back with her arms extended up over her head. The head was turned to the right. A brief examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist. Also noted was a small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek. A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck. After examining the body, I left the residence at approximately 8:30PM.
That would be 20 minutes outside the house doing who-knows-what, and a total of 10 minutes inside the house to do the initial examination. I think most posters here know about the things we’ve discussed in the past on numerous occasions that should have been done which would give a much more accurate TOD, but were not. There is no need to go into them here.



Maybe if they had taken the advice of the FBI (who was called in for advice, since after all, they have had jurisdiction in child abductions since 1932), they would have looked at the parents (which is what the FBI told them they should do). The parents would have been interviewed separately, and it may have never gone any further than that.



Uh, yeah, okay. And when someone does, please report back with the results.


Since the criticism comes from a person who is himself was CONVICTED of witness tampering, Maybe not the best source.
"The jury was unable to reach a unanimous decision on charges that Dr. Speth intentionally cracked the bone of a man found hanging in his cell in the Essex County jail in 1993, in an attempt to make the man's suicide appear to be murder, and that he lied under oath about the break."
"Dr. Goode dismissed Dr. Speth as a state assistant medical examiner in 1987. Dr. Speth then took over as the Medical Examiner of Gloucester County in southern New Jersey. In 1992, Dr. Goode filed a 117-page critique of Dr. Speth's five years in office, prompting Dr. Speth not to seek reappointment."
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/29/n...n-ex-coroner-of-tampering-with-a-witness.html

I believe they should have brought in the FBI ASAP. The fact is they made big mistakes that cost everyone. The BPD,and the RAMSEYS.
 
Okay. What was he going to do there. He is a coroner not a crime scene investigator.

Opinion about his techniques and report are just that. Someone coming in after and criticizing. I can not comment truly about that but it seems everyone has an opinion about this case :)

"After all, if Meyer's work is celebrated by his Colorado peers, but found inadequate by modern forensic standards, citizens of Boulder and throughout Colorado should know that."

This is your source for the criticism.
"Speth himself is involved in a politically charged case in New Jersey, where he is under indictment for tampering with evidence in a suicide. The accusation comes from the office of the state's medical examiner, which Speth had criticized for mishandling autopsies."

I would say that what he says, Really does not matter that much..

There was plenty for the coroner to do there at the house -problem is he didn't do it. He neglected to perform the two most basic procedures to determine time of death, imperative in a murder case. He neglected to perform the liver stab (which determines core body temperature in a process called algor mortis) and he neglected to withdraw a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball (potassium levels there can help determine how long a body has been dead).
It is true that in JB's case the stage of rigor mortis she was in when found and the position of the pineapple in her digestive tract also can indicate with a high degree of accuracy the time of death, but there is simply no logical explanation why the coroner did not perform the two basic procedures. I can only assume it was a deliberate omission based on information and/or instructions provided to him before he went there.
 
Since the criticism comes from a person who is himself was CONVICTED of witness tampering, Maybe not the best source.

reading the entire article helps:

Other forensic pathologists, most notably former New York City Coroner Michael Baden and Pittsburgh Coroner Cyril Wecht, have made similar observations about Meyer's report of the Ramsey autopsy.
 

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