Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Cailin Rua]

It's just possible IMO that Caylee fell into the pool on Casey's watch and instead of calling 911/doing CPR, it occurred to Casey that this was a good solution to her problems. I'm not even sure how you would charge that.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I've read some of your posts over the last few weeks, and I'm sure someone might have already mentioned this. But I think you're looking for a "beyond a shadow of a doubt" rather than a "reasonable doubt". Reasonable = common sense, connecting the dots, reviewing the evidence, putting 2 and 2 together, etc. Oh, and this is said respectfully of course. :banghead:

First let me start by saying that I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't realize how snarky your last sentence sounds because when I say respectfully, I actually mean it. I realize this case creates powerful emotions in people because ultimately we are talking about the betrayal of one of our most fundamental instincts, that children should be protected especially by their mothers and I have no desire to offend anyone, just looking for intelligent conversation to help me clarify my thoughts. My opinions may differ from the majority of the people on this board, but in the end I'm just trying to make sense of it all too.

Kelroy addressed the rest of your post more eloquently than I ever could.

ETA: Okay, after reading over some of my earlier posts, I can see where the respectfully may have come off as insincere. I promise, it wasn't meant that way. I was tired, and I was worried about my statements coming off as snide and/or haughty and I overused the phrase. I use an app on my iPad to view the forum, so I don't have access to all the fun smilies and formatting capabilities that can help clarify my tone, and I just really don't want to be offensive or rude to anyone. My apologies.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Unless the defense presents me with an official psych evaluation by an expert psychiatrist that CASEY ANTHONY is not normal, that there's something mentally wrong with her, I will continue to believe she would've reacted like countless of other people (including a felon, April) react when they find their child dead in the pool. Call 911. Try to save your baby. Give her a decent funeral. Mourn her. And no one will be able to convince me that George Anthony, an ex cop, thought it would be better to dump a body than report a tragic accident.

No doubt at all in my mind that Caylee was murdered.

I doubt any air-tight cases ever make it to trial. Those are plea-bargained the second it's possible. Most cases are all circumstancial evidence. But when you have 1000 of circumstancial evidence pointing to one person and no credible defense, then there's only one logical conclusion. Let's not forget here that Caylee was thrown away and left to skeletonize BECAUSE who ever put her there wanted to escape punishment. That to me proves guilt more than anything else would.

Normal people report an accident. The defense hasn't found a psychiatrist (and they seem to have found other experts to discredit other testimonies) to testify that Casey isn't normal. I'm sure if that defense was possible, they would've jumped on it! Therefore my conclusion is that Casey is "normal". Normal people report accidents, normal people (well normal killers) also try to evade punishment.

Oh yeah, Cindy Anthony and Lee Anthony's testimonies, I take them all with a graint of salt. Close family always come to the defense of an accused (and sometimes sentenced family member) if the case is not air-tight. For example, Scott Paterson, Amanda Knox, etc. That is also how normal people behave.

They did come up with a couple of Psychiatrists to examine her.
As soon as the DT could, they buried their evaluations.
IMO Psychiatrists are pretty expert at sniffing out malingerers. I'm sure that is what they found her to be..

 

[ZsaZsa]

No. In my opinion they have created certainity in my mind. Casey's family is changing their stories in an obvious attempt to protect Casey. Why? Her family knows she is guility and are trying to take some of the 'blame" in an attempt to save her. Her parents have always done this in the past and their doing it again. I don't understand why but it is obvious they are. Maybe this is why this case has touched me so much, Caylee has nobody but the SA and caring folks on her side.

Teresa

Yes, they have cemented what doubt the Jury may have had about this with CA's testimony this week. It was perfect.
It says something when you turn on one of those TH shows and every single one of the usually Pro Defense lawyers think the OS is ridiculous and JB's performance is too embarrassing to keep talking about. (Pirro last night).

 

[Chili Fries]

ITA with GeekyGirl,I don't need an expert psychiatrist to tell me that KC is not normal.I think they should bring in her photobucket icons as evidence of what was really going on in her mind.I can totally see her not calling 911 after the accident.She had a date to go to and she does not deal with problems.She covers them up and pretends nothing happened and smiles big.She has the complete ability to detach herself from reality IMO.

I think Lee's testimony yesterday may have impacted juror's in that way...him saying that he didn't accept Caylee's death even as he spoke at her memorial and him just not being willing to face things. He ignored Caylee's nursery even though his room was next to it, and he let himself be shut out of the pregnancy. He showed the extent of denial an Anthony offspring can exhibit. Now that's obviously much different than a psych eval but it was powerful emotional stuff that could have gotten through to jurors.

My list of the main things that might introduce doubt are:

- Testimony by friends that Casey seemed to be a good mom.
- Cindy's testimony about the chloroform searches
- Cindy's testimony about Caylee being able to open the sliding glass door and climb into the pool by herself (including the pictures)
- The weirdness surrounding Lee's emotional display and what kind of deep secrets the family may really have.

And when I say doubt, I still just mean doubt about the death being premeditated or as a result of child abuse...so a manslaughter conviction. I don't know how much this stuff will sway the jury and obviously the prosecution still has time to overcome whatever points the defense has scored. Anyway, all this stuff I write is not my personal viewpoint but trying to see things from the most effected juror's perspective.

 

[GeekyGirl]

They did come up with a couple of Psychiatrists to examine her.
As soon as the DT could, they buried their evaluations.
IMO Psychiatrists are pretty expert at sniffing out malingerers. I'm sure that is what they found her to be..

Pure speculation here, but I would tend to think that it's because they didn't find anything that would mitigate her actions in the legal sense. I have no doubt that Casey understands the concept of right wrong but I would guess it's not a good defense strategy to come out and say that your client has, for example, sociopathic tendencies (not saying she does or doesn't, just a hypothetical). I had a psych professor who fond of saying "normal is setting on your washing machine, not a way to define human behavior". The terminology she preferred was functional vs. dysfunctional. MOO

 

[ZsaZsa]

Pure speculation here, but I would tend to think that it's because they didn't find anything that would mitigate her actions in the legal sense. I have no doubt that Casey understands the concept of right wrong but I would guess it's not a good defense strategy to come out and say that your client has, for example, sociopathic tendencies (not saying she does or doesn't, just a hypothetical). I had a psych professor who fond of saying "normal is setting on your washing machine, not a way to define human behavior". The terminology she preferred was functional vs. dysfunctional. MOO

I agree.
But I think if those reports had indicated a guileless person who was sexually abused during her formative years we would have heard about them..

 

[GeekyGirl]

I agree.
But I think if those reports had indicated a guileless person who was sexually abused during her formative years we would have heard about them..

ITA with you on this.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

All of us have read and reread the documents and depo's we know this case like the back of our hands but what if you were a juror and only knew whats been presented. Yes, the defense has done a pretty crappy job in my opinion, and some things have been laughable like " a dog could have buried the bones" but if I was on the jury and only knew what has been presented, Cindy stating that she made the computer searches for chloroform would definately have me thinking. From a jurors point of view I would be like if Cindy made the searches but Casey supposedly killed Caylee with Chloroform, how could that be if Cindy was the one searching what would be the chance...ya know????? I think the defence won some points today in creating doubt, not sure it is reasonable doubt but, doubt regardless... do you think the defense has created reasonable doubt... now rememeber only one person has to doubt. What say you?

I don't believe they have created doubt...I believe they have shown the lengths ICA will go to to not accept responsbility for her own actions by throwing her father under that mack truck, shame on her. This is the little fact that might do her in...some of the men are dads and I so hope they see how dispicable and incredulous this defense is...

The DT has shown that CA/LA are bias and will discount what they've said to a point ( I truely want to know what LA said to Baez and what it was he overheard ).

I just hope they use common sense and understand that if an accident truly occured, why didn't ICA call 911 immediately? If an accident occured why did it take ICA three years ( to the day ) to tell of this alleged drowning? Why would she sit in prison all this time? ICA has many chances to tell the truth before her arrest for child neglect and lying to officials...those 31 days are crucial...I only hope the jury sees it this way as well..JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[Nali87]

ITA with GeekyGirl,I don't need an expert psychiatrist to tell me that KC is not normal.I think they should bring in her photobucket icons as evidence of what was really going on in her mind.I can totally see her not calling 911 after the accident.She had a date to go to and she does not deal with problems.She covers them up and pretends nothing happened and smiles big.She has the complete ability to detach herself from reality IMO.

I really don't get it. Not only you, but most of the comments I've heard say the prosecution only has about a hundred circumstancial evidence. The defense hasn't even entered any psych evaluation declaring Casey not-normal (and she WAS evaluated by psychiatrists), yet people take it for a fact that Casey is insane. You don't need any proof what so ever. They expect the prosecution to back up everything with evidence, as they should. Yet don't even have "doubt" about whether or not Casey is normal. You're certain, absolutely certain she's not normal, based on what exactly? Casey is as normal as a killer can be. Evil, but normal. She knew right from wrong; throwing baby away wrong. Reporting accident right. With everything the defense has said, don't you find it weird they couldn't find ONE psychiatrist to testify that Casey is messed up in the head?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

(editted because I'm on the wrong thread)

 

[GeekyGirl]

I really don't get it. Not only you, but most of the comments I've heard say the prosecution only has about a hundred circumstancial evidence. The defense hasn't even entered any psych evaluation declaring Casey not-normal (and she WAS evaluated by psychiatrists), yet people take it for a fact that Casey is insane. You don't need any proof what so ever. They expect the prosecution to back up everything with evidence, as they should. Yet don't even have "doubt" about whether or not Casey is normal. You're certain, absolutely certain she's not normal, based on what exactly? Casey is as normal as a killer can be. Evil, but normal. She knew right from wrong; throwing baby away wrong. Reporting accident right. With everything the defense has said, don't you find it weird they couldn't find ONE psychiatrist to testify that Casey is messed up in the head?

Since I was mentioned in the OP's post, I'd like to clarify what I mean by "not normal". I don't mean she's insane or psychotic or anything thing else that would mitigate her legal or moral culpability in Caylee's death. I haven't seen any evidence that she doesn't understand right from wrong, just that she doesn't care about how her actions affect other people. I don't doubt that a psychiatrist would have found her mentally sound in the legal sense (which is the only thing that would help her defense) but I can't believe they'd find her to be a functional adult either. When I say "not normal" it's because I'm trying to understand her behavioral patterns, and how they relate to her actions in this case, not make an argument that she shouldn't be held accountable. MOO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I think Lee's testimony yesterday may have impacted juror's in that way...him saying that he didn't accept Caylee's death even as he spoke at her memorial and him just not being willing to face things. He ignored Caylee's nursery even though his room was next to it, and he let himself be shut out of the pregnancy. He showed the extent of denial an Anthony offspring can exhibit. Now that's obviously much different than a psych eval but it was powerful emotional stuff that could have gotten through to jurors.

My list of the main things that might introduce doubt are:

- Testimony by friends that Casey seemed to be a good mom.
- Cindy's testimony about the chloroform searches
- Cindy's testimony about Caylee being able to open the sliding glass door and climb into the pool by herself (including the pictures)
- The weirdness surrounding Lee's emotional display and what kind of deep secrets the family may really have.

And when I say doubt, I still just mean doubt about the death being premeditated or as a result of child abuse...so a manslaughter conviction. I don't know how much this stuff will sway the jury and obviously the prosecution still has time to overcome whatever points the defense has scored. Anyway, all this stuff I write is not my personal viewpoint but trying to see things from the most effected juror's perspective.

Overall, I agree with much of what you are saying. But for me, the dynamics of the Anthony family are just completely irrelevant in terms of evidence. You don't get a "pass" because you had a crappy childhood.

JMO

 

[ami]

I think we should remember that the computer searches clearly indicated that someone typed "how to make chloraform" into the google search bar -- and Cindy said it was not her.

Cindy didn't type that.

Cindy didn't claim to type that.

So can someone please tell me how Cindy copping to following links to chloroform creates reasonable doubt?

When she clearly stated more than once that she was not the one who typed "how to make chloraform"

If Cindy didn't search for how to make chloroform- who are we expected to believe did that search?

 

[Zuckerschnecke]

Let's say Casey was knocking out Caylee so she could quiet her. Okay, she's naive, young and not wanting this child from the beginning. One time she gives her too much and Caylee doesn't wake up. Casey panics, 'OH MY GOD AM I IN TROUBLE' and so she rides out her time until the gig is up and her parents find her. AT THIS POINT, if it was NOT murder, Casey would have been pointing all kinds of fingers. I can't make sense of her going to jail and going through ALL THIS for THREE YEARS unless she DID in fact murder her little girl and needed some time away from the pressure of investigators, family, friends, to come up with some messed up story like now.

My point is that, in any other instance OTHER THAN murder, she would have given up the goods by now.

 

[marlame]

Let's say Casey was knocking out Caylee so she could quiet her. Okay, she's naive, young and not wanting this child from the beginning. One time she gives her too much and Caylee doesn't wake up. Casey panics, 'OH MY GOD AM I IN TROUBLE' and so she rides out her time until the gig is up and her parents find her. AT THIS POINT, if it was NOT murder, Casey would have been pointing all kinds of fingers. I can't make sense of her going to jail and going through ALL THIS for THREE YEARS unless she DID in fact murder her little girl and needed some time away from the pressure of investigators, family, friends, to come up with some messed up story like now.

My point is that, in any other instance OTHER THAN murder, she would have given up the goods by now.

Casey never gives up the goods! From what we have seen thus far...when Casey lies she rarely (if ever) backs down and admits the truth. She just tells more lies to cover up her lies. When her mom finally caught up with her in July 2008 the gig was far from up. No way was she going to admit to her mother (of all people) that she killed Caylee by accident! ICA went into lie and cover-up mode like she always has done with her mother.

I think ICA would rather take her chances with the DP or LWOP than to ever admit to CA that everything her mother said the night of the big fight on father's day 2008 was true. The relationship dynamics between ICA and CA is what has ruled ICA's in ability to fess up! She would rather die than have her mother now the TRUTH about her!

JMO...premeditation has yet to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[GeekyGirl]

I keep seeing the same argument repeated, that if it was an accident that she tried to cover up or the result of her being neglectful, she would have fessed up rather than sit in jail. Regardless of what happened, Casey knew she looked bad. I'm pretty sure any plea arrangement prior to December 2008 would have required her to divulge the location of the body, and she knew exactly what they'd find. Even if you don't take that in account, what would the DA and LE have done if she came forward and said "Oh, you know what? It really was just an accident, and I panicked and tried to cover it" ? Do you think they would have just said "Oh okay, thanks for telling us the truth, you're free to go"? Even if they would naturally be inclined to go easy in a similar situation, there is no way they would have let her go on anything less than aggravated manslaughter. This story has been a media sensation for years now, and there are people who have been calling for Casey's head since the beginning. Her only chance of walking away from this was going through with a full trial, DP and all. The minute she chose to hide the body and go on about her business, she had no choice but to sit in jail and wait until she got her day (or months) in court. I can't see how that is conclusive proof of Caylee's death being murder, only that there was probably something at least a little fishy about it.

Now as to why she's agreed to this crazy defense, when coming forward with a plausible accident theory might actually help her now? I'm not sure, but from her past behavior it seems that when Casey gets in trouble, she lies, and when people catch her in lies, she makes up new ones... On and on, until the other person finally just backs down.

MOO

 

[Peachy Keen]

He ignored Caylee's nursery even though his room was next to it

Respectfully snipped

To me, that was one of the most ridiculous parts of Lee's testimony. How do you live in a small house, next door to the room that is being turned into a nursery, and not be aware of it? Uh uh. Doesn't hold water. If I was juror, I would think he was lying, and that would make me ponder just what else in his testimony was not true.

MOO

 

[feddup]

31 days of lying about the whereabouts of her baby- no doubt at all. The jurors heard this first and they'll hear this last....and it is the strongest truth they know... They heard the callous defendant on video tape.

Also...sleeping wit new bfriend, renting movies, clubbing, pics, tatoo, putting off letting Mother chat with Caylee..Id say the list is long.

 

[Who_What_When]

That's why I say Common Sense will make the decision for them. No matter what the defense throws out there the jury will use common sense and logic to make they're decison. Common sense tells me the evidencethe prosecution is showing makes more sense then the evidence or lack of that the defense is throwing out. Tape on mouth, smell in car, no reports of her missing chlorform searches ect put it all together and it proves murder. I don't think the defense have proven anything that supports their theory of events. JMO

I hope you're right but they only need one juror to believe their theory and that is why I wish the SA had more evidence of how Caylee died.