Has the defense created reasonable doubt?

[Irish_Eyes]

Caylee is deceased. Very sad fact, but fact nonetheless.

If you only looked at the remains, and not the circumstances of where they were found, or the duct tape, garbage bags, the 31 days, any of that, there would be no way to know if it was an accident or a murder. The surrounding evidence is all there is.

I don't care about the partying, a lot of young people party, even young moms.

I don't care about the many boyfriends, if a guy had a lot of girlfriends nobody would suggest he was not a fit parent based on that alone.

I care that Caylee was becoming more verbal and it was only a matter of time before she said "No, mommy didn't go to work," or "No, we didn't go to Zanny's", etc.

I care that she was telling people that either she was moving out, or Cindy was, but clearly was communicating to people that her life was about to change in a big way.

I care about ICA being the one with Caylee when she died. I know she says George was there too, but I saw his testimony and I saw him on the jail tapes and I don't believe that.

I care that she didn't call 911.

I care that AFTER the cat was out of the bag and everyone knew that Caylee was "missing" she watched Cindy clearly suffering for months and wouldn't come clean on where Caylee was.

I care about comments from her own mouth such as "waste, huge waste" and "maybe I'm just a spiteful b*#@%."

I care that she left her daughter in a garbage bag in the swampy woods with bugs, animals, and other discarded trash.

I care about her telling George they were staying at Zanny's so he wouldn't wonder where Caylee was BEFORE said "accident" happened.

I disagree with the State on a few things. I think that the duct tape was staging and that Caylee was either intentionally smothered or drowned. I think the chloroform was from trying to clean the trunk.

However, I don't think I have any reasonable doubt that ICA intentionally caused the death of Caylee.

 

[Mystic]

Not for me, I just felt that he was telling ICA's last big lie. I don't know how much the Jurors picked up on how he spun what was presented to a version that made no sense by contridicting himself, mistelling of facts and being condecending of witnesses, SA and to the Jurors themselves. Hopefully they spend time with the evidence.

 

[katydid23]

I also think the DT did very well today and did create reasonable doubt as to premeditation. I very much agree with a lot of things JB said about the junk science and fantasy forensics. I agree with Dr. Baden where he says the state messed up big time by not testing for DNA in the maggots present in the car and also not taking water samples from the pool to compare with what was in Caylee's bone marrow. IMO. this is far from a slam dunk for the state - which I think lost focus by concentrating too much on obtaining a murder 1 conviction rather than finding out the truth. They could have easily proved or disproved the accidental drowning theory and if proved, still would have been a win for the state. Anyway, I hope we get justice here...real justice for Caylee, not just a lynching.

I heard other forensics TH's saying Dr Baden was purposely talking trash when he makes those claims. I bet we will hear more about that tomorrow morning.
But apparently there would be NO evidence in her bones from a short simple drowning. That happens in bodies found to be underwater for a long time.
And also there would be no way to test the DNA in the maggots 30 days later because they would have digested what they had originally eaten which is why neither side wanted to test it and have it show nothing.

And WHEN should they have tried to 'disprove' the drowning theory? Baez threw it out there on the first day of the trial, after 3 yrs of her being in custody. Smoke and mirrors. If it was a simple accident why did they wait 3 yrs to say so?

I find it odd you call this a lynching. I think if anyone was attempting to lynch anybody it was Baez going for George and Roy Kronk. imoo

 

[crucibelle]

Really not being snarky, when were those times? I've seen people say this, but I've never seen an actual example of it. TIA

I've never seen it, either. :waitasec:

 

[Who_What_When]

I'm hung up on the Deletion of the chloroform searches. This was done by Casey purposefully right after Yuri Melich left their home on the night of July 15/morning of 16th at 4 am.

WHY? There was no body yet, in fact LE werent even looking at Casey yet.

This is the biggest piece of info to me that ties in the chloroform searches to the chloroform in the trunk.

Why oh why would the deletion of these searches be the very first thing Casey does when LE leaves her house that very first night.

The only answer to that is because SHE and only SHE knew it was an issue, to me for her to run and delete only those searches, she might as well have admitted that's had a MAJOR part in the disappearance and death of Caylee.

So yes, I'm still at premeditated murder.

I think if LDB brings up these deletions and when they were done and that they were the ONLY thing deleted it absolutely begs the question WHY??

That is something to think about. From the beginning I didn't by the whole Chloroform thing and after Jose laid it out today it really made sense to me (that it wasn't used) but if that is when she deleted it then that makes me wonder. Do we know for sure it was her that deleted it? Did she just delete those terms or everything? It will be interesting to hear what the SA says tomorrow.

 

[crucibelle]

Well, I'm almost afraid to say this.. but I think the DT raised more than just a little reasonable doubt. When I try to look at this from a juror's point of view, only knowing what was presented in court, this is the way I see things. I'm looking forward to LDB's rebuttal.

 

[MEM2010]

Regarding the situation where Caylee was there at night and gone by the morning.

My fault it was actually at Ricardo Morales apartment. Cindy allegedly called Casey in the middle of the night to bring Caylee home. But when Questioned Cindy denied any phone call that night

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4824851/Casey-Anthony-Ricardo-Morales-Interview

page 12; line 19



Cindy denies calling casey that night

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2011/0224/26984466.pdf

page 17; 2nd block

 

[cluciano63]

I think both sides did a good job today; the state was compelling, but what they say is basically only a theory of what happened. While I happen to agree with it, I am not sure I could believe it beyond "any and all reasonable doubts". The jury did not hear much about how much Casey was straining to be with her friends more-we know it, but not so much from trial. They didn't know how much she and Cindy were fighting over Caylee and the liefstyle Casey was trying to lead. Plus Caylee was plenty verbal already at almost three, I believe. JMO-JMO

 

[RANCH]

I agree with Dr. Baden where he says the state messed up big time by not testing for DNA in the maggots present in the car and also not taking water samples from the pool to compare with what was in Caylee's bone marrow.

How would testing for DNA in the maggots help ICA? Either it would show Caylees DNA or maybe someone else s or no ones. There's no other dead people involved in this case that I know of. Pool water sample to bone marrow test? What is that?

 

[katydid23]

I believe she may/probably died on the night of the 15th. I would have guessed prior to that except for the pics of Caylee on the gr grandfather's lap. If that is true, there are one helluvalot of possible scenerios for this childs demise, and they don't all center around Casey killing her.

My opinion only

So what scenario would involve someone else killing or accidentally killing the child AND YET CASEY LIES AND LIVES A HAPPY GO LUCKY EXISTENCE?

I cannot get past her intricate web of lies. NOBODY ELSE LIED LIKE SHE DID.

Other people were actually looking for Caylee and asked LE for help. Casey was the only one who tried to keep the cops away and who told everyone the baby was fine.

 

[Obbzest]

Just because the DT comes and admits an accidental drowning, you are ready to admit that is what happened?

Not at all. I'm saying this could have been scientifically proved or disproved by analyzing the Diatoms. This is not voodoo science. Why wasn't it done? I'm not buying the accidental drowning theory anymore than I am buying into the chloroform / duct tape theory.

 

[GeekyGirl]

That is something to think about. From the beginning I didn't by the whole Chloroform thing and after Jose laid it out today it really made sense to me (that it wasn't used) but if that is when she deleted it then that makes me wonder. Do we know for sure it was her that deleted it? Did she just delete those terms or everything? It will be interesting to hear what the SA says tomorrow.

I've thought about this over and over. It appears she (or someone, but most likely her) did delete the searches right after Caylee's disappearance was discovered. They obviously were memorable, because I don't think I could tell you what I was googling in March, and it appears she knew they could be incriminating, but I'm struck by every other term in that search and how it just doesn't paint a picture of someone trying to plot the murder of a toddler. I think about the texts to Amy about the house and such, and I think maybe they had something to do with thoughts of killing her parents. If they were related to Caylee's death, why didn't she delete them sooner? Maybe when she realized that she was going under a microscope because of Caylee's "disappearance" it occurred to her that those "other thoughts" she was having might not look so good to LE. Then again, maybe I'm giving her too much credit. I would have discarded the thought of chloroform long ago if weren't for timing of the deletion, but there's still not enough to convince me BARD it was used.

 

[katydid23]

Not at all. I'm saying this could have been scientifically proved or disproved by analyzing the Diatoms. This is not voodoo science. Why wasn't it done? I'm not buying the accidental drowning theory anymore than I am buying into the chloroform / duct tape theory.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as that. I have heard that claim disputed. You do know that Dr Baden's wife WORKS FOR THE DEFENSE TEAM, Correct?

 

[GeekyGirl]

How would testing for DNA in the maggots help ICA? Either it would show Caylees DNA or maybe someone else s or no ones. There's no other dead people involved in this case that I know of. Pool water sample to bone marrow test? What is that?

I think the maggot thing would be irrefutable evidence that Caylee's body was in the trunk, but I actually think that part of the state's case is solid. Testing the bone marrow could have shown diatoms that were consistent with the pool water at the Anthony's, thereby possibly given support to the drowning theory, but an absence of them wouldn't rule out a drowning, and the presence might be effectively argued as proof she swam in the pool, accidentally inhaled water, but not drowned. It would be an iffy thing. MOO

 

[sappysoul]

I think both sides did a good job today; the state was compelling, but what they say is basically only a theory of what happened. While I happen to agree with it, I am not sure I could believe it beyond "any and all reasonable doubts". The jury did not hear much about how much Casey was straining to be with her friends more-we know it, but not so much from trial. They didn't know how much she and Cindy were fighting over Caylee and the liefstyle Casey was trying to lead. Plus Caylee was plenty verbal already at almost three, I believe. JMO-JMO

Yes, Caylee was verbal, that was the problem. I can't tell by the videos how sophisticated her communication was but we know the verbal skills improve quickly during ages 2 and 3. We really have little idea how Casey spent her time while she was supposed to be working and how much she had to change as Caylee became increasingly verbal. Caylee's verbal and mental abilities were only going to get better.

 

[MEM2010]

Also someone in another thread made a very good point. The fact the ICA was dating Ricardo in March when the "How to make chloroform" searches were performed. Maybe she was intending to kill Caylee then?

ICA and Ricardo break up eventually and when she finds a new love interests she revisits the idea to murder Caylee.

...possibility

 

[GeekyGirl]

Regarding the situation where Caylee was there at night and gone by the morning.

My fault it was actually at Ricardo Morales apartment. Cindy allegedly called Casey in the middle of the night to bring Caylee home. But when Questioned Cindy denied any phone call that night

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4824851/Casey-Anthony-Ricardo-Morales-Interview

page 12; line 19



Cindy denies calling casey that night

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2011/0224/26984466.pdf

page 17; 2nd block

Thanks for this, it certainly is weird. Though if I'm the state, I probably wouldn't be pointing out any scenarios that depend on believing in the veracity of a statement made by Cindy. I have a feeling she's pretty much been discredited in the juror's eyes.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I also think the DT did very well today and did create reasonable doubt as to premeditation. I very much agree with a lot of things JB said about the junk science and fantasy forensics. I agree with Dr. Baden where he says the state messed up big time by not testing for DNA in the maggots present in the car and also not taking water samples from the pool to compare with what was in Caylee's bone marrow. IMO. this is far from a slam dunk for the state - which I think lost focus by concentrating too much on obtaining a murder 1 conviction rather than finding out the truth. They could have easily proved or disproved the accidental drowning theory and if proved, still would have been a win for the state. Anyway, I hope we get justice here...real justice for Caylee, not just a lynching.

Caylee had already been 'missing' for 31 days when LE first got notified. There was no suggestion of a drowning then,and cadaver dogs did not hit on the pool,which they would have had Caylee been in there. IIRC Joypath said that at that late date (31days+)the diatom testing would not have been useful.
Dr Baden is a DT mouthpiece. His opinions on ICA -guilt and everything associated with this case turned around 180 once his wife was hired.Up to then he was stating how convincing all the evidence was, so don't pay too much attention to anything he says as being reliable.

 

[RANCH]

I think the maggot thing would be irrefutable evidence that Caylee's body was in the trunk, but I actually think that part of the state's case is solid. Testing the bone marrow could have shown diatoms that were consistent with the pool water at the Anthony's, thereby possibly given support to the drowning theory, but an absence of them wouldn't rule out a drowning, and the presence might be effectively argued as proof she swam in the pool, accidentally inhaled water, but not drowned. It would be an iffy thing. MOO

What are these "diatoms".

 

[ohiogirl]

All of the posters here, are you saying there is reasonable doubt regarding the DP, or are you sayng reasonable doubt for all charges?
Be specific.