Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

[LinasK]

I'm on the I don't know who did it side. Each scenario is plausible and very possible with one exception-Burke. I don't think he would have the physical strength or that the parents would have needed to cover up. The defense being it was accidental, he had no idea he could kill his sister, coaching him as to what to say. He heard something got scared thought a "monster" was in house and hit sis (who had gotten up out of bed) by accident. Too many accident scenarios they could have come up with besides kidnapping by a foreign faction and garroting her in basement. I'm stuck between RDI and IDI as both have good evidence. If the RDI is true, I don't think 1 parent acted alone they both had to be in on it.

That's what I think!

 

[UKGuy]

That's what I think!

LinasK,

I agree, but you left out Burke Ramsey. He who saw JonBenet walk into the house and likely sipped tea from the glass, as JonBenet sat opposite snacking pineapple. So he knows the official version of events does not match what took place that night, his silence means he is colluding to keep someone safe?


.

 

[LinasK]

LinasK,

I agree, but you left out Burke Ramsey. He who saw JonBenet walk into the house and likely sipped tea from the glass, as JonBenet sat opposite snacking pineapple. So he knows the official version of events does not match what took place that night, his silence means he is colluding to keep someone safe?


.

Yup! I think his father is still keeping him silent somehow, whether it's out of fear or money I don't know...

 

[CathyR]

The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child. If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better. I don't when and where he went to school but pediatricians are now trained to look for sexual abuse in children, not just unexplained injuries like bruises and broken bones.

 

[CathyR]

Heyya CathyR.

That's the thing, as you word it.

"I can't find any statements from medical experts who actually examined her post or pre murder stating so....." - CR

You won't.

Read the post by UKGuy- seems there is some.

It all goes back to the numerous discussion here on the numerous threads about ....

...terms of description a coroner or forensic pathologist would use vs the criteria, used by medical community. which indicates / suggest sexual abuse.

OK it is talking like a duck now.

 

[LinasK]

The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child. If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better. I don't when and where he went to school but pediatricians are now trained to look for sexual abuse in children, not just unexplained injuries like bruises and broken bones.

Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

 

[CathyR]

Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

I agree!!!!!!

The Dr. and the chimney- how did this person graduate medical school or even the 3rd grade. Jethro Bodine knew better, it isn't like she is the first person to attempt this either. All were caught and had to be cut out of the chimney if they were still alive.
Imagine that being your Dr and you find out what she did, I'd be requesting medical records pronto, discontinue any meds that wouldn't be life threatening to quit taking and find a new Dr. quick.

:Banane45: The last one made my day, my sides still hurt from laughing so hard.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I think there's another side to the pediatrician that we are not seeing. If he was a family friend to the Ramsey's, he could have easily spoken to Patsy about molestation and never put the notes on JB's record. I don't think we can take him at his word simply because she was at his office too many times with yeast and bladder infections. It is unthinkable in this day and age that a doctor would not be looking for signs of molestation. It is possible that this doctors "talk" with Patsy could have set this whole thing in motion.

 

[DeeDee249]

From accounts of people who knew them, JB's pediatrician was in awe of the Rs. He belonged to the same Country Club and he played golf with them frequently.
He may have suspected something, in view of her repeated infections- he may have spoken to Patsy about it, possibly he may have wondered if there was any "exploring" being done by a curious older brother.
BUT keep in mind he did NOT do an internal pelvic exam on JB, and without that he would not have seen evidence of abuse like erosion, hyperemia, etc.
Pelvic exams can't be done on children without putting them under some type of anesthetic, similar to what they might need for getting a tooth pulled. It would be a procedure not done under normal circumstances. WE know there was abuse because it was revealed in an AUTOPSY. It wouldn't be revealed in an average exam a pediatrician might do.
His failure to address the real reason for her many infections may be deeply inept, but his failure to do a pelvic exam or discover her injuries is not illegal. Nor would he be stripped of his license. He would simply say he had no reason to perform such an exam, nor did he see any symptoms of abuse. And that would be the end of his responsibility.
I think he suspected something which he kept hidden (on Patsy's behalf, IMO). He refused to turn over the medical records of a little girl who was MURDERED with a sexual aspect to the crime! And he was aided in this deception by the DA, who refused a warrant for the records to the police.
I cannot think of ANY reason why a pediatrician would refuse that request and hide the medical records of one of his patients who had been murdered UNLESS there was something in his notes implicating a family member in some type of abusive contact with the child

 

[Ames]

From accounts of people who knew them, JB's pediatrician was in awe of the Rs. He belonged to the same Country Club and he played golf with them frequently.
He may have suspected something, in view of her repeated infections- he may have spoken to Patsy about it, possibly he may have wondered if there was any "exploring" being done by a curious older brother.
BUT keep in mind he did NOT do an internal pelvic exam on JB, and without that he would not have seen evidence of abuse like erosion, hyperemia, etc.
Pelvic exams can't be done on children without putting them under some type of anesthetic, similar to what they might need for getting a tooth pulled. It would be a procedure not done under normal circumstances. WE know there was abuse because it was revealed in an AUTOPSY. It wouldn't be revealed in an average exam a pediatrician might do.
His failure to address the real reason for her many infections may be deeply inept, but his failure to do a pelvic exam or discover her injuries is not illegal. Nor would he be stripped of his license. He would simply say he had no reason to perform such an exam, nor did he see any symptoms of abuse. And that would be the end of his responsibility.
I think he suspected something which he kept hidden (on Patsy's behalf, IMO). He refused to turn over the medical records of a little girl who was MURDERED with a sexual aspect to the crime! And he was aided in this deception by the DA, who refused a warrant for the records to the police.
I cannot think of ANY reason why a pediatrician would refuse that request and hide the medical records of one of his patients who had been murdered UNLESS there was something in his notes implicating a family member in some type of abusive contact with the child

He still practices in Boulder too...and his patients and their parents love him. I have no idea why!

 

[CathyR]

i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

 

[joeskidbeck]

i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

And then, instead of going directly to LE about all those visits with JonBenet, he goes to Patsy and precribes medication to calm her. Do we really believe Patsy didn't have a doctor she could have called in this time of stress? I believe he knew more than he ever told or ever will tell.

 

[joeskidbeck]

This instance is one of the times when the Ramsey's phone records from that night would be really helpful. It's possible this doctor was called immediately after the head wound.

 

[BBB167893]

and pre 9-11 I find it strange they mention beheading (something we as a nation became familiar with from Muslim extremist post 9-11).

If I could focus on this one momentarily:

One, your linking beheading with Islamist extremists lends credence to my assertion (made many times) that it was that image the note writer was trying to convey. But more importantly, as I've also said many times, while we know far more about islamist violence since 9/11 than we did before it, even before 9/11 it was common knowledge that they chop off heads in that part of the world.

 

[BBB167893]

Thanks, UKGuy. When I combine all the evidence such as her toileting issues and the coroner's and witness' statements, I come up with prior abuse. It's like the rest of this case, it's not just one thing that points to abuse but a totality of the evidence.

Exactly. It's not just the physical or behavioral evidence. It's ALL of them together.

A few other things:

1) The assertion that no abuser would risk taking their child to the doctor may be a false one. As Wendy Murphy, a sex crimes prosecutor states in her book, sometimes this is a cry for help. Moreover, the doctor said he never performed the kind of examination that would have been able to tell while she was still alive.

2) One of the doctors who attended JB post-mortem may indeed have made his feelings known. Andrew Sirotnak examined JB's genital injuries at the autopsy. In 2001, he co-authored a treatise on child abuse using JB as his patient zero. His co-author? Richard Krugman, a member of the panel ST mentions in his book (I can name them all, if anyone's interested) and a devout believer in chronic abuse.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Exactly. It's not just the physical or behavioral evidence. It's ALL of them together.

A few other things:

1) The assertion that no abuser would risk taking their child to the doctor may be a false one. As Wendy Murphy, a sex crimes prosecutor states in her book, sometimes this is a cry for help. Moreover, the doctor said he never performed the kind of examination that would have been able to tell while she was still alive.

2) One of the doctors who attended JB post-mortem may indeed have made his feelings known. Andrew Sirotnak examined JB's genital injuries at the autopsy. In 2001, he co-authored a treatise on child abuse using JB as his patient zero. His co-author? Richard Krugman, a member of the panel ST mentions in his book (I can name them all, if anyone's interested) and a devout believer in chronic abuse.

BBM
Maybe a mother who suspected someone was abusing her child would take her to the doctor, if for no other reason than to allay her suspicions. She could have done this without coming right out and asking the doctor. Could be the reason she had JB at the pediatricians so many times. I can understand her wanting to know, yet not wanting to know. It's a tough situation to be in and I don't envy anyone in it. I can also understand how she would rationalise this in her own mind. "There can't be anyone molesting JonBenet, if there was, her doctor would have known it immediately".

 

[BBB167893]

The photographic examination by a panel of experts is very compelling evidence Thank you for the info UKGuy. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Does anyone else besides me think her pedi should be brought up on charges of failure to protect a child.

I sure do!

If Patsy found out at the Dr.'s office that JBR was being molested she couldn't have blamed the child ( as assumed was her motive for killing her) or not at least in front of the Dr. Together they could have reported it but the Dr. most certainly should have examined her better.

For all I know, that may have been exactly what PR was after.

 

[BBB167893]

Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

There was another one a few years ago. Ricky Holland, I believe. His pediatrician found no evidence of abuse. Little Ricky later wound up dead at the hands of his father. (And we know the father did it, because he has apologized. And an apology is the same as a confession.)

 

[LinasK]

Absolutely! He should be investigated and his medical license pulled. I think he was bought off by the Ramsey's. Just because he was a doctor, doesn't mean he couldn't be bad/use bad judgement. I can think of 6 doctors recently in this category: one (don't know his name offhand) was corrupt and helped get a guy killed in Pasadena for an insurance fraud (victim's surname was Ellis), another was Esther Wadley- tried to have her husband assasinated, then there's Anna Nicole Smith's and Michael Jackson's Dr.'s- illegally prescribing meds, and the doctor in Stockton who recently died trying to go down her boyfriend's chimney!

In addition, doctors have a duty as first responders/mandatory reporters to report suspected abuse as do many other health professionals and teachers...

 

[DeeDee249]

i don't see why she would need to be knocked out to exam her hymen, a deeper more internal exam I can see but knocking her out----. The hymen is at the opening of the vagina and can be seen easily. If he had seen the erosion he could have requested the further exam and if refused gone to authorities.

If he discussed any form of abuse of JBR to Patsy then why not tell the police. If I were a Dr. and had discussed it with a parent and my patient ends up dead. He should have been burning up the phone lines to CPS, BPD, etc. Once his patient died he wasn't bound by patient Dr. confidentiality rules. Especially if he suspected abuse, he is absolved from any prosecution as he is required to report this.

A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.