Haunting Evidence: JonBenet Ramsey

[MurriFlower]

A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Labial_adhesions

"
Summary

Labial adhesions, or fused labia, means that the inner lips of the external female genitals (labia minora) have stuck together. This common condition affects up to two per cent of girls aged three months to six years. In most cases, labial adhesions resolve by themselves during the onset of puberty without the need for medical treatment. Treatment may include oestrogen cream and surgery to separate the labia.

Symptoms
The symptoms of labial adhesions can include:

* The inner lips are joined together.
* The condition is usually painless.
* There may be some vulval soreness in some cases.
* Dribbling urine after going to the toilet may be a problem.
* There may be some vulval soreness after urinating in some cases.
* In severe cases, there may be an inability to pass urine.

A range of causes
The exact cause is unknown, but it is strongly suspected that labial adhesions are caused by irritation to the external genitals. The range of possible irritants include:

* Faeces
* Urine
* Strongly perfumed soaps
* Bubble baths
* Inflammatory conditions such as vulvitis
* Atopic dermatitis
* Pinworms
* Labial injuries
* Sexual abuse.

The labia fuse together
The outer skin surface (squamous epithelial layer) of the labia minora is thin and delicate. Irritation and inflammation can cause the outer skin to become exposed and raw. The two raw lips then heal together in much the same way as any skin cut might heal. Usually, the labia start to fuse at the bottom end (posterior fourchette), closest to the anus, and work up towards the clitoris.

Labial adhesions are more common during the nappy years. Poor hygiene is thought to be a common cause in older girls. Low oestrogen levels (hypo-oestrogenism) are also thought to contribute to the development of labial adhesions. The condition resolves during puberty because the effect of the female hormone oestrogen changes the cells that line the genitals.
"

 

[DeeDee249]

JB however, had labia that were NOT fused, though many of the conditions you mention apply to her. That alone is suspicious to me. Unless the pediatrician attempted to do a pelvic exam or look at the hymen he would not know that. There is nothing to indicate that her doctor made any attempt to view her hymen or examine her labia. If he did so, he did not say it.

 

[MurriFlower]

JB however, had labia that were NOT fused, though many of the conditions you mention apply to her. That alone is suspicious to me. Unless the pediatrician attempted to do a pelvic exam or look at the hymen he would not know that. There is nothing to indicate that her doctor made any attempt to view her hymen or examine her labia. If he did so, he did not say it.

Fused labia is a medical condition it is not the normal condition.

 

[Bobbarita]

As we posulate Patsy's reactions to whatever may or may not have been discovered and discussed with the pediatrician, let's not forget the item in evidence that startled Steve Thomas and his colleague---the dictionary page folded to to the word "incest".

 

[BBB167893]

http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Labial_adhesions

"
Summary

Labial adhesions, or fused labia, means that the inner lips of the external female genitals (labia minora) have stuck together. This common condition affects up to two per cent of girls aged three months to six years. In most cases, labial adhesions resolve by themselves during the onset of puberty without the need for medical treatment. Treatment may include oestrogen cream and surgery to separate the labia.

Symptoms
The symptoms of labial adhesions can include:

* The inner lips are joined together.
* The condition is usually painless.
* There may be some vulval soreness in some cases.
* Dribbling urine after going to the toilet may be a problem.
* There may be some vulval soreness after urinating in some cases.
* In severe cases, there may be an inability to pass urine.

A range of causes
The exact cause is unknown, but it is strongly suspected that labial adhesions are caused by irritation to the external genitals. The range of possible irritants include:

* Faeces
* Urine
* Strongly perfumed soaps
* Bubble baths
* Inflammatory conditions such as vulvitis
* Atopic dermatitis
* Pinworms
* Labial injuries
* Sexual abuse.

The labia fuse together
The outer skin surface (squamous epithelial layer) of the labia minora is thin and delicate. Irritation and inflammation can cause the outer skin to become exposed and raw. The two raw lips then heal together in much the same way as any skin cut might heal. Usually, the labia start to fuse at the bottom end (posterior fourchette), closest to the anus, and work up towards the clitoris.

Labial adhesions are more common during the nappy years. Poor hygiene is thought to be a common cause in older girls. Low oestrogen levels (hypo-oestrogenism) are also thought to contribute to the development of labial adhesions. The condition resolves during puberty because the effect of the female hormone oestrogen changes the cells that line the genitals.
"

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. We're not necessarily talking about a medical condition here. As Dr. John McCann, one of the panel members that ST mentions, said in his report to the DA's office, the labia of a child that age tend to remain closed unless manually separated.

 

[CathyR]

A little girl who has NOT been sexually abused has labia that are still fused shut. To view the hymen would require manual separation of the labia which would be painful for a child.

I don't don't where you got your fused labia info (that isn't normal).

I was ROFL for quite a while. The autopsy report would have referred to her labia as having that condition and it did not.

There is a condition where the labia is fused and babies are diagnosed with it and an estrogen cream is often used. By 6 years old JBR would have had some treatment as it would have been advised long before 6 years of age.

Here is is link to a "moms" site discussing it.

[ame="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=949670"]fused labia? - MotheringDotCommunity Forums[/ame]


I have one my sisters have one, my daughter has one, and none of us had any fusion of our labia at 6 years of age.

 

[CathyR]

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding. We're not necessarily talking about a medical condition here. As Dr. John McCann, one of the panel members that ST mentions, said in his report to the DA's office, the labia of a child that age tend to remain closed unless manually separated.[/QUOTE

Yes that is true, closed but not FUSED. JBR had some issues that required Patsy to try and be extra diligent in her cleaning. She would have to separate her labia and clean around her urethra and the surrounding skin as the tendency to stay closed labia would trap bacteria and the higher than normal acid content of her urine would be irritating to her labia. Both sets. Did any of you ladies even know you have Labia major and Labia minor. The minor being closer to the opening of your vagina (where a hymen is located).

This reminds me of a fight I had with my mom over my "monthly". I wanted to use tampons and she said I would injure myself and insisted I consult our family doctor. He told her if I started to hurt myself I would stop as it would feel painful. I was 14. It takes more force than tampon insertion to break it and JBR's was still intact but erosion was at the 7 o'clock position.
If I were having to clean someone in that area I would most likely use a washcloth. The direction I would wipe would be towards the bottom and along the side of her labia. I see it is possible for Patsy to have caused further damage to an already irritated JBR's labia. JBR would have cried or complained IMO alerting her it was too rough. The autopsy report alludes to this healing and it is being used here as proof she was sexually assaulted prior to her death.

The erronous post about fused labia caused a firestorm of medical evidence we should not ignore, it also shows how severely labia can be damaged by infections and the very things listed as causes. Sexual abuse is not the only cause it is one and should not be ignored but the evidence supporting it is very small and has yet passed a "litmus test".

One of the things I noticed as I reread the post about the panel of doctors is 2 photos were shown. One was of a girl with a normal vaginal area. Same age as JBR. The other is a post mortem photo of JBR's area.

The photos cannot be compared as one is alive and the other dead. Post mortem lividity and a living person...... and the color is going to be off big time.

Where these experts informed of JBR's past medical history? Her bed wetting, bladder, vaginitis, her long standing (at least 6 months) history of these issues?

If not then the person showing the photos isn't very fair minded or intellectually gifted. In order to make a scientific comparison valid the small details must be paid attention to. A presentation to a group of doctors, they are going to assume the presenter did their homework and presented a fair case comparison. A living normal 6 year old isn't the criteria needed for comparison. JBR had some big issues that affect the evidence as presented.

You may not want to ever have to compare it to another dead child but at least compare it to a child with the same long term bed wetting, etc. issues where it is KNOWN no abuse has occurred and this is what irritation and even erosion looks like. Then account for the subjects being live and deceased. Then examine only the areas where it is suspected to be previous abuse.
Compare those two areas of the girls as it would be a fair comparison.

JBR was sexually assaulted and the injuries she received were bad enough to have caused her pain and not just a little of it. Looking for comparisons generally speaking only conclude what we already know. She WAS assaulted sexually before she died. The sexual assault left behind injuries that were easily detected at autopsy.





The swelling of the body also makes all parts of the body bigger. How many hours after death were the photos taken. Since JBR was laying on her back a great deal of blood pooled on her backside and could affect the coloring of her vaginal area too. It depends upon the time of death and when the ME did the photos. They may have been done as part of and after the autopsy itself.

After reading and reeading the post about the doctors viewing the photos I have more questions ( and I thought I had found answers).

 

[BBB167893]

This reminds me of a fight I had with my mom over my "monthly". I wanted to use tampons and she said I would injure myself and insisted I consult our family doctor. He told her if I started to hurt myself I would stop as it would feel painful. I was 14. It takes more force than tampon insertion to break it and JBR's was still intact but erosion was at the 7 o'clock position.

I'm not sure that's a good comparison. The hymen becomes much more elastic upon the onset of puberty.

The erronous post about fused labia caused a firestorm of medical evidence we should not ignore, it also shows how severely labia can be damaged by infections and the very things listed as causes. Sexual abuse is not the only cause it is one and should not be ignored but the evidence supporting it is very small and has yet passed a "litmus test".

What litmus test would that be?

One of the things I noticed as I reread the post about the panel of doctors is 2 photos were shown. One was of a girl with a normal vaginal area. Same age as JBR. The other is a post mortem photo of JBR's area.

The photos cannot be compared as one is alive and the other dead. Post mortem lividity and a living person...... and the color is going to be off big time.

It wasn't just the color, the way I understand it.

Where these experts informed of JBR's past medical history? Her bed wetting, bladder, vaginitis, her long standing (at least 6 months) history of these issues?

From what I understand, they were informed. Virginia Rau and Richard Krugman mentioned those things.

If not then the person showing the photos isn't very fair minded or intellectually gifted.

Actually, the way I remember it, those comparison photos were shown to the DA's staff.

In order to make a scientific comparison valid the small details must be paid attention to. A presentation to a group of doctors, they are going to assume the presenter did their homework and presented a fair case comparison. A living normal 6 year old isn't the criteria needed for comparison. JBR had some big issues that affect the evidence as presented.

From what I understand, they were aware of these things. John McCann specifically mentioned the criteria to be looked for.

After reading and reeading the post about the doctors viewing the photos I have more questions ( and I thought I had found answers).

I'm completely open to you. Shoot.

 

[KoldKase]

I will never understand why some prefer to argue over every possible detail of what might or might not have been some far fetched causation for the obvious signs of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy when the child was clearly sexually assaulted and murdered.

Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

Oh, and lucky intruder, he just happened to write exactly like Patsy Ramsey.

Maybe I think too logically. I can't see how these crimes were committed by anyone but one or more of the three people in the home that night.

 

[BBB167893]

Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

That would be my question, all right.

 

[Roy23]

I will never understand why some prefer to argue over every possible detail of what might or might not have been some far fetched causation for the obvious signs of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy when the child was clearly sexually assaulted and murdered.

Common sense, please. What are the odds that the documented chronic vaginal injuries, including a missing hymen and erosion, plus a medical history of vaginitis and bedwetting, just coincidentally existed in a six year old, frequently dressed and taught to perform like an adult Las Vegas showgirl, who also had a paintbrush jabbed up her the night she was murdered by an intruder who wasn't a kidnapper, but thought what the heck, might as well write several drafts and then leave a ransom note while I'm here?

Oh, and lucky intruder, he just happened to write exactly like Patsy Ramsey.

Maybe I think too logically. I can't see how these crimes were committed by anyone but one or more of the three people in the home that night.

I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

 

[BBB167893]

I mean you are making some pretty good points here

You bet. So, any ideas?

if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for.

That hardly erases what KK has brought up.

And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

I have a few ideas about that. But let's not change the subject just now.

 

[KoldKase]

I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

Fair questions. But surely you have read the arguments on them many times.

Not that I'm above arguing the same thing for the millionth time, mind you....

But right now, I've been doing just that for hours and have to go, so let me point out something a poster at another JB forum, "Otr" at the topix.com site, brought up, as regards the DNA issue.

It's one of those "right in front of your nose" moments that answered the question of the DNA so clearly, I'm still stunned it hasn't been brought up before, at least not that I've seen--not that it's been possible to see everything written or discussed about this case in almost 14 years....

This starts with a picture taken at autopsy. Heck, I can't find the upload function, so give me a few minutes to see if I can post it here.

Okay, if that works, I think you can notice that whoever is holding those little fingers is holding them at the location of the fingernails, as well. So to repeat myself (from an FFJ post):

...an autopsy picture of the medical examiner or someone who assisted with the autopsy holding JonBenet's hand...clearly touching her fingers/fingernails. If he/she had DNA on those gloves, contaminated as has been reported from using the same, unsterilized clippers on various bodies, transference could have occurred here. Or if she had DNA on her own fingers or under her fingernails from something she had touched, that could have gotten on these gloves while handling those, as well....

Now think about that: if the medical examiner had DNA on those gloves from contaminated instruments or fingers or fingernails or anything, he also pulled down the longjohns and Bloomies. He looked at the Bloomies close enough to report that the BLOODSTAINS IN THE PANTY did not correspond to bloodstains on the genital area of the body. How closely did he handle those Bloomies to determine those spots did not match up?

There's an excellent opportunity for contamination of the longjohns and Bloomies, IMO.

If the DNA in question is contamination, then it could have come from another body in the morgue being processed at the time. Did they take DNA samples from all bodies processed in the morgue at the time? I have no idea.

I guess it's back to the same arguments...heh. Do the few skin cells and partial strands of DNA it took 14 years to find on the clothes in this case overwhelm the other evidence?

I guess that's an opinion each of us decides on our own.

 

[UKGuy]

I mean you are making some pretty good points here if only you had an answer as to why there is foreign DNA that LE or nobody else can account for. And that for whatever reason they did not indict and the best experts in the world have advised them to not even try to with the case they have.

Roy23,

The JonBenet case is a sexually motivated homicide. Intruder or not. The foreign dna is a side show since it would be inadmissable in court.

The foreign dna could have originated from anywhere, e.g. from the gift wrapped FAO Schwartz size-12's that the killer unwrapped to redress JonBenet, or from cross-contamination at the autopsy lab, e.g. wearing the same latex gloves to touch consecutive items of JonBenet's clothing might transfer totally alien dna, or the foreign dna was picked by JonBenet herself lets say from some foreign object at the White's party or the door-handle of John Ramsey's car?

Now you find me the same foreign touch dna on the ligature then I'll take an intruder scenario more seriously. I note we have not been told precisely whose dna was recovered from the ligature!

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene designed to deflect attention away from a domestic homicide, there is sealed forensic evidence we know little about, but the revelation that there may have been one or more dolls in the wine-cellar alters its complexion, since an intruder needs no dolls to indulge whatever fetish was performed on JonBenet.

.

 

[cynic]

Fair questions. But surely you have read the arguments on them many times.

Not that I'm above arguing the same thing for the millionth time, mind you....

But right now, I've been doing just that for hours and have to go, so let me point out something a poster at another JB forum, "Otr" at the topix.com site, brought up, as regards the DNA issue.

It's one of those "right in front of your nose" moments that answered the question of the DNA so clearly, I'm still stunned it hasn't been brought up before, at least not that I've seen--not that it's been possible to see everything written or discussed about this case in almost 14 years....

This starts with a picture taken at autopsy. Heck, I can't find the upload function, so give me a few minutes to see if I can post it here.

Okay, if that works, I think you can notice that whoever is holding those little fingers is holding them at the location of the fingernails, as well. So to repeat myself (from an FFJ post):



If the DNA in question is contamination, then it could have come from another body in the morgue being processed at the time. Did they take DNA samples from all bodies processed in the morgue at the time? I have no idea.

I guess it's back to the same arguments...heh. Do the few skin cells and partial strands of DNA it took 14 years to find on the clothes in this case overwhelm the other evidence?

I guess that's an opinion each of us decides on our own.

That link didn't work KK, this is the pic that you are after, I believe:

 

[tragco]

Roy23,

The JonBenet case is a sexually motivated homicide. Intruder or not. The foreign dna is a side show since it would be inadmissable in court.

The foreign dna could have originated from anywhere, e.g. from the gift wrapped FAO Schwartz size-12's that the killer unwrapped to redress JonBenet, or from cross-contamination at the autopsy lab, e.g. wearing the same latex gloves to touch consecutive items of JonBenet's clothing might transfer totally alien dna, or the foreign dna was picked by JonBenet herself lets say from some foreign object at the White's party or the door-handle of John Ramsey's car?

Now you find me the same foreign touch dna on the ligature then I'll take an intruder scenario more seriously. I note we have not been told precisely whose dna was recovered from the ligature!

The wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene designed to deflect attention away from a domestic homicide, there is sealed forensic evidence we know little about, but the revelation that there may have been one or more dolls in the wine-cellar alters its complexion, since an intruder needs no dolls to indulge whatever fetish was performed on JonBenet.

.

Why do you say the foreign DNA would be inadmissible in court? I am of the opinion that it would definitely be admissible; in fact it would be almost impossible to get it thrown out.

 

[KoldKase]

That link didn't work KK, this is the pic that you are after, I believe:

I have no idea how these photo links or uploads work. At FFJ I have an upload option, but not here. Also, when I use the "insert image" button, I can see the photo with no problem when I post it. I see photos others post that people then say they can't see...?

Your post actually has two photos in it I see: mine and yours.

So I'm guessing there's something going on with the photos here I haven't figured out. Thanks for posting it, anyway, as I guess others can't see it in my post, as well. :waitasec:

 

[UKGuy]

Why do you say the foreign DNA would be inadmissible in court? I am of the opinion that it would definitely be admissible; in fact it would be almost impossible to get it thrown out.

tragco,

The dna in her underwear is degraded and does not meet legal definition of evidence, and that from her longjohns may also have quality issues.

Like I said before why is there no matching touch-dna on the ligature, paintbrush-handle, duct-tape from her mouth, or even her barbie nightgown which I assume she was wearing when killed?

How does that work, did the intruder selectively remove his gloves, simply to remove JonBenet's lower garments?

.

 

[LinasK]

I have no idea how these photo links or uploads work. At FFJ I have an upload option, but not here. Also, when I use the "insert image" button, I can see the photo with no problem when I post it. I see photos others post that people then say they can't see...?

Your post actually has two photos in it I see: mine and yours.

So I'm guessing there's something going on with the photos here I haven't figured out. Thanks for posting it, anyway, as I guess others can't see it in my post, as well. :waitasec:

Because you cannot upload to Websleuths. Any photos that are posted are actually links to photos hosted elsewhere...That's what the insert photo icon is for

- you have to give it the URL where your photo is hosted.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't don't where you got your fused labia info (that isn't normal).

I was ROFL for quite a while. The autopsy report would have referred to her labia as having that condition and it did not.

There is a condition where the labia is fused and babies are diagnosed with it and an estrogen cream is often used. By 6 years old JBR would have had some treatment as it would have been advised long before 6 years of age.

Here is is link to a "moms" site discussing it.

fused labia? - MotheringDotCommunity Forums


I have one my sisters have one, my daughter has one, and none of us had any fusion of our labia at 6 years of age.

Yes, I wasn't speaking of the medical condition, but rather what was mentioned- that the labia at that age would need to be manually separated. And frankly, I see nothing about this case that would make me ROFL, especially at someone else's mis-statements. We are talking about the murder of a little girl, and while I speak only for myself, I don't think I see much to ROFL about. WWJD?