Head blow vs strangulation

[UKGuy]

Poor baby....I don't care what the Ramseys say, I would NEVER be able to move on without finding the bast**d who did this!

Notice her hair entangled in the cord? It looks like she was lying on her left side when the cord was placed on her body. The hair from the right side of her head is entangled in a way that suggests the person placed the cord around her neck while she was unconcious.

One thing is certain...JonBenet was not struggling when the cord was placed around her neck.

Toltec,

Yes her hair is mainly tangled on the same side as most of her injuries.

I think that ligature is staging, although Coroner Meyer states that ligature strangulation is a cause of death, unless I heard him state the nylon cord did in court, it could be he thinks some other ligature was applied? This might confirm her lower compressed abrasions as resulting from this initial strangulation e.g. a red turtleneck? This is then replaced by the nylon ligature, which if it was used has done little damage to her internal neck structures, here is the excerpt form the Autopsy Report relating to her neck.

Neck: Dissection of the neck is performed after removal of
the throacoabdominal organs and the brain. The anterior strap
musculature of the neck is serially dissected. Multiple
sections of the sternocleidomastoid muscle disclose no
hemorrhages. Sections of the remainder of the strap
musculature of the neck disclose no evidence of hemorrhage.
Examination of the thyroid cartilage, cricoid cartilage and
hyoid bone disclose no evidence of fracture or hemorrhage.
Multiple cross sections of the tongue disclose no hemorrhage
or traumatic injury. The thyroid gland weights 2 gm and is
normal in appearance. Cut sections are finely lobular and
red-tan. The trachea and larynx are lined by smooth pink-tan
mucosa without intrinsic abnormalities.

So after being strangled to death by that nylon cord Coroner Meyer records there were no internal neck injuries, not even to her underlying skin structures, normally these are damaged by ligature compression.

I am probably being pedantic but in his conclusion Coroner Meyer states.

CLINICOPATHLOGIC CORRELATION: Cause of death of this six year old
female is asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral
trauma.

i.e. asphyxia by strangulation not asphyxia by ligature strangulation

Its likely just a technicality, but who knows?


.

 

[Tober]

I think that ligature is staging, although Coroner Meyer states that ligature strangulation is a cause of death, unless I heard him state the nylon cord did in court, it could be he thinks some other ligature was applied?

Could she have been strangled with a scarf?

 

[UKGuy]

Could she have been strangled with a scarf?

Tober,

Yes anything that could act as a ligature, it need not be a nylon cord, she may have been held by the neck or mouth to prevent her screaming, as she was being sexuallly assaulted, this may have been the catalyst for the strangulation?

imo it was her sexual assault that was being masked and staged, not her death, her death is given its not negotiable!

Otherwise why stage an accident as a homicide, 1st off its a domestic homicide, who becomes prime suspect in that kind of case, what happens if the particpants eventually blame each other, DA wants a good result, so plays them off against each other in court, one result could be the person who initiated the accident is found guilty of 1st degree murder, or worse the person who helped out is found guilty of 1st degree murder?

Most domestic abuse cases are staged as accidents certainly not as homicides, so there is two strategic reasons why if it had been an accident it likely should have been staged as an accident.


.

 

[BlueCrab]

So after being strangled to death by that nylon cord Coroner Meyer records there were no internal neck injuries, not even to her underlying skin structures, normally these are damaged by ligature compression.

UKGuy,

No internal neck injuries is evidence of a "gentle" strangulation, as is practiced in erotic asphyxiation sex games (an intermittant tightening and loosening of a ligature around the neck to control blood and oxygen to the brain).

IMO JonBenet accidentally died by asphyxiation as EA was forcefully being performed on her. The EA device was still around her neck, and her hands had been bound to keep them out of the way -- a standard procedure in EA.

The hit on the head, the vicious tightening of the neck ligature (which was already on the neck for EA purposes), and the fake ransom note, was staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and try to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.

BlueCrab

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

No internal neck injuries is evidence of a "gentle" strangulation, as is practiced in erotic asphyxiation sex games (an intermittant tightening and loosening of a ligature around the neck to control blood and oxygen to the brain).

IMO JonBenet accidentally died by asphyxiation as EA was forcefully being performed on her. The EA device was still around her neck, and her hands had been bound to keep them out of the way -- a standard procedure in EA.

The hit on the head, the vicious tightening of the neck ligature (which was already on the neck for EA purposes), and the fake ransom note, was staging to cover up the sexual aspects of the crime and try to make it look like a kidnapping gone wrong.

BlueCrab

BlueCrab,

You may be correct that it was a "gentle" strangulation, a lot of the evidence is consistent with your EA theory.

imo the garrote is staging applied postmortem.

Was it Patsy that was practising EA, was she acting out some fantasy related to her literary studies, why use part of a paintbrush handle, which are normally bevelled, was there not something else more suitable to hand?

Someone served JonBenet a pineapple snack, shortly afterwards she was dead, now if the snack was a sweetner then maybe her death or EA session wa planned in advance, from memory there was still some pineapple left in the bowl, is this correct, so JonBenet never finished eating her most favorite food?

Why was JonBenet snacking food just before bedtime, most 6-year olds are in bed early and dont eat, say after 9PM, there was also fluid in the bowl, I like pineapple too, particularly with condensed milk, whatever the fluid was, combined it must have been a recipe for bedwetting. Patsy could hardly serve JonBenet pineapple and fluid, then tell her not to wet the bed, or even become enraged if she did, these Toilet Rage theories do not match the evidence?


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[Solace]

BlueCrab,

You may be correct that it was a "gentle" strangulation, a lot of the evidence is consistent with your EA theory.

imo the garrote is staging applied postmortem.

Was it Patsy that was practising EA, was she acting out some fantasy related to her literary studies, why use part of a paintbrush handle, which are normally bevelled, was there not something else more suitable to hand?

Someone served JonBenet a pineapple snack, shortly afterwards she was dead, now if the snack was a sweetner then maybe her death or EA session wa planned in advance, from memory there was still some pineapple left in the bowl, is this correct, so JonBenet never finished eating her most favorite food?

Why was JonBenet snacking food just before bedtime, most 6-year olds are in bed early and dont eat, say after 9PM, there was also fluid in the bowl, I like pineapple too, particularly with condensed milk, whatever the fluid was, combined it must have been a recipe for bedwetting. Patsy could hardly serve JonBenet pineapple and fluid, then tell her not to wet the bed, or even become enraged if she did, these Toilet Rage theories do not match the evidence?


.

With all due respect this is the most absurd theory I have ever heard and it is exactly why this case rages on. Patsy lost it that night and mortally hurt JonBenet and then went it to stage mode. The Ramseys have done an excellent job of keeping you all guessing by doing the "staging". And she did so because no one would believe that a parent would defile their daughter like this. That is exactly what the Grand Jury believed. Spllinters were found inside of JonBenet. That is also staging. The child wet her bed once again and it just infuriated Patsy. There is no sexual game going on.

But I guess it keeps the case going and this Board also. I am sorry but Veronica 10 is on the right track. I will concede she may have been hit with the flashlight in a rage. And Berke did not do it either.

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab,

You may be correct that it was a "gentle" strangulation, a lot of the evidence is consistent with your EA theory.

imo the garrote is staging applied postmortem.

Was it Patsy that was practising EA, was she acting out some fantasy related to her literary studies, why use part of a paintbrush handle, which are normally bevelled, was there not something else more suitable to hand?

Someone served JonBenet a pineapple snack, shortly afterwards she was dead, now if the snack was a sweetner then maybe her death or EA session wa planned in advance, from memory there was still some pineapple left in the bowl, is this correct, so JonBenet never finished eating her most favorite food?

Why was JonBenet snacking food just before bedtime, most 6-year olds are in bed early and dont eat, say after 9PM, there was also fluid in the bowl, I like pineapple too, particularly with condensed milk, whatever the fluid was, combined it must have been a recipe for bedwetting. Patsy could hardly serve JonBenet pineapple and fluid, then tell her not to wet the bed, or even become enraged if she did, these Toilet Rage theories do not match the evidence?


.

UKGuy,

IMO the "garrote", which appears to be designed as a sexual breath control device and not a garrote, was not staging. It's way too elaborate to be staging. The device was obviously used for sexual reasons.

A real garrote is a simple length of wire or rope that is wrapped around the victim's neck to strangle him; no knots or wooden handles, etc. being needed. The killer was trying to cover up evidence of a sexual assault, so why would he wrap a complicated-looking erotic asphyxiation sexual breath control device around JonBenet's neck? He wouldn't.

I think the EA device (the "Garrote") had been constructed at least two days prior to the murder and had been used on JonBenet as a sexual device about two days prior to the murder. This resulted in the chronic injuries to the vagina (inflicted about two days prior to the murder) being at the same 7 o'clock position as the acute injuries to the vagina (inflicted the night of the murder).

I agree with you about the pineapple. Neither parent "fed" pineapple to JonBenet that night. She was six years old and children that age can feed themselves. The fingerprints of the person who helped JonBenet get the bowl down from the upper kitchen cabinet is on the bowl. And the giant serving spoon sticking out of the bowl of pineapple has children written all over it.

BlueCrab

 

[tumble]

BlueCrab:

What is your take on the EA device. Normally a device like that is used on self to enchance the sexual experience. here you suggest that it was used on another person i.e. JB. Why? Do you think it was used to force her into a sexual response?

 

[BlueCrab]

BlueCrab:

What is your take on the EA device. Normally a device like that is used on self to enchance the sexual experience. here you suggest that it was used on another person i.e. JB. Why? Do you think it was used to force her into a sexual response?

tumble,

Yes. The Ramsey family's sexualizing of JonBenet IMO put her years ahead of other children her age in regard to her perceptions about sex. At the encouragement of older persons, it lead to experimentation with sex, culminating with the dangerous EA experiment which accidentally killed her, as it does hundreds of young Americans every year.

The physical evidence suggests EA, which means erotic asphyxiation with a partner. The partner controls the ligature around the subject's neck which intermittantly restricts blood and oxygen to the brain as he simultaneously masturbates the subject. The subject's hands are usually tied overhead to prevent involuntary removal of the ligature before orgasm is achieved which, of course, would ruin the goal of the technique -- an enhanced orgasm.

AEA is an even more dangerous masturbation technique. AEA means autoerotic asphyxiation (auto meaning self). Most accidental deaths from erotic asphyxiation are AEA deaths.

However, IMO JonBenet's accidental death was from EA because her hands were tied overhead.

BlueCrab

 

[Solace]

tumble,

Yes. The Ramsey family's sexualizing of JonBenet IMO put her years ahead of other children her age in regard to her perceptions about sex. At the encouragement of older persons, it lead to experimentation with sex, culminating with the dangerous EA experiment which accidentally killed her, as it does hundreds of young Americans every year.

The physical evidence suggests EA, which means erotic asphyxiation with a partner. The partner controls the ligature around the subject's neck which intermittantly restricts blood and oxygen to the brain as he simultaneously masturbates the subject. The subject's hands are usually tied overhead to prevent involuntary removal of the ligature before orgasm is achieved which, of course, would ruin the goal of the technique -- an enhanced orgasm.

AEA is an even more dangerous masturbation technique. AEA means autoerotic asphyxiation (auto meaning self). Most accidental deaths from erotic asphyxiation are AEA deaths.

However, IMO JonBenet's accidental death was from EA because her hands were tied overhead.

BlueCrab

Her hands were loosely tied over her head and served no purpose at all. This is staging once again.

 

[tumble]

tumble,

Yes. The Ramsey family's sexualizing of JonBenet IMO put her years ahead of other children her age in regard to her perceptions about sex. At the encouragement of older persons, it lead to experimentation with sex, culminating with the dangerous EA experiment which accidentally killed her, as it does hundreds of young Americans every year.

The physical evidence suggests EA, which means erotic asphyxiation with a partner. The partner controls the ligature around the subject's neck which intermittantly restricts blood and oxygen to the brain as he simultaneously masturbates the subject. The subject's hands are usually tied overhead to prevent involuntary removal of the ligature before orgasm is achieved which, of course, would ruin the goal of the technique -- an enhanced orgasm.

AEA is an even more dangerous masturbation technique. AEA means autoerotic asphyxiation (auto meaning self). Most accidental deaths from erotic asphyxiation are AEA deaths.

However, IMO JonBenet's accidental death was from EA because her hands were tied overhead.

BlueCrab

Your theory makes a lot of sense BlueCrab. Looking at the so called "garrote" it is obviously not a garrote. An EA device seems plausible indeed. Staging is also plausible IMO but I am starting to have doubts.

The ligature on the hands seems a bit too loose to have a function but then we don't really know how it was used.

The pineapple is interesting. Somehow I think JR and PR's reaction to the pineapple with "are you sure??" seems quite genuine. They seem to be unaware of this fact. It fits nicely with JBR snacking without their knowledge. But then it is hard to believe anything they are saying.

The juvenile setup of everything also rings true to my ears. But I am fairly convinced that PR and JR at least participated in the coverup. Thinking about the latched winecellar door for example.

 

[BlueCrab]

Her hands were loosely tied over her head and served no purpose at all. This is staging once again.

Solace,

Sorry, but you don't know that. You are going only by an autopsy report which doesn't address the purpose of the wrist ligatures.

John Meyer, who performed the autopsy on JonBenet, reported exactly what he saw on the table in front of him and he correctly documented it in his autopsy report. The right wrist had a cord ligature on it and the left wrist had no ligature on it at all. But Meyer did not see what JonBenet's wrist ligatures looked like prior to John Ramsey bringing her upstairs from the basement.

A ligature is tight while pressure from a heavy object is pulling on it, but usually loosens up when the weight of the heavy object is removed.

John Ramsey, while still in the basement, admitted he tried to untie the wrist ligatures on JonBenet but they were too tight. John finally got one of the knots loose (or he may have cut the cord but denies it). This loosened the ligatures on both wrists as the pressure on the knots was released. When he carried JonBenet upstairs she still had the ligature on the right wrist, but the ligature on the left wrist fell off and was dangling as he carried her.

IMO JonBenet had been strung up by the wrists, probably while in a sitting position, and John had to cut her down to release the pressure on the ligatures. The wrist ligatures were not staging.

BlueCrab

 

[tumble]

If JB was hung up or forcefully restrained would not this leave marks on her wrists?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

If JB was hung up or forcefully restrained would not this leave marks on her wrists?

I really think it would, and there aren't any bruises or abrasions at all. I just don't see how anyone could strangle a healthy 6 year old girl to death, while conscious, without her trying to remove her hands from restraints to fight off the cord and the killer, injuring herself in the struggle. She'd be yanking at her hands as hard as she could to try to prevent strangling to death - and she'd do it without even thinking about it, by instinct.

I recently read an article that said that claw marks were found on people who committed suicide by hanging, because the brain instinctively tells the person to struggle to survive...even when they meant to die by strangling. So how did the killer prevent JonBenet from doing so? It wasn't by those slack wrist restraints that would never have restrained a living child.

There are no defense wounds on JonBenet at all. None. Not on her hands, arms, feet, or shins. Nothing to show that she tried to offer any kind of struggle whatsoever with who tied the cord around her neck and tightened it until she died. And considering her long johns and underwear were urine-stained in the front and in the crotch, I think she was strangled while lying facedown on the floor, which could have caused some of the injuries to her face. I think she was completely unconscious when the cord was tied and tightened.

 

[Solace]

Solace,

Sorry, but you don't know that. You are going only by an autopsy report which doesn't address the purpose of the wrist ligatures.

John Meyer, who performed the autopsy on JonBenet, reported exactly what he saw on the table in front of him and he correctly documented it in his autopsy report. The right wrist had a cord ligature on it and the left wrist had no ligature on it at all. But Meyer did not see what JonBenet's wrist ligatures looked like prior to John Ramsey bringing her upstairs from the basement.

A ligature is tight while pressure from a heavy object is pulling on it, but usually loosens up when the weight of the heavy object is removed.

John Ramsey, while still in the basement, admitted he tried to untie the wrist ligatures on JonBenet but they were too tight. John finally got one of the knots loose (or he may have cut the cord but denies it). This loosened the ligatures on both wrists as the pressure on the knots was released. When he carried JonBenet upstairs she still had the ligature on the right wrist, but the ligature on the left wrist fell off and was dangling as he carried her.

IMO JonBenet had been strung up by the wrists, probably while in a sitting position, and John had to cut her down to release the pressure on the ligatures. The wrist ligatures were not staging.

BlueCrab

You can raise Clarence Darrow from the dead and this still won't wash. It just keeps the questions going. No one can believe it and so they are going to the sexual play thing. This is a rage murder committed by the mother and to a large extent aided and abetted by the father. It think it was John who most likely broke that paint brush in half and made the garrotte and more than likely told Patsy to start writing.

Berke did not have anything to do with it.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,

Yes what you suggest is a valid interpretation of the evidence, and may have occurred.

imo I think the staging is misleading many people. If you look carefully at this image:
http://zyberzoom.com/face1.jpg
There is the appearance of two ligature furrows,

but if you then look at her neck from the rear:
http://zyberzoom.com/backneck.jpg
There is only one ligature furrow apparent.

If you then look again at the frontal view:
http://zyberzoom.com/neck72.jpg

You can clearly see on the left and more pronounced on the right red compression abrasions which imo result from someone manually strangling JonBenet e.g. thumb marks?

The thin nylon cord would never have left such large abrasions, this is confirmed by the absence of such abrasions along the circumference of the upper ligature furrow.

Although Coroner Meyer states Ligature strangulation as a cause of death, this does not discount manual strangulation from being an aggravating factor, or controversially that the Ligature strangulation he itemises in the autopsy report may not have been what appears in the crime-scene photographs i.e. it may be staging?

Every time I review these images I am more convinced that her injuries were not the result of any accident, she has multiple neck abrasions, multiple contusions to the sides of her head and face, and a severe depressed fracture to her skull, along with likely postmortem injuries i.e. those alleged stun-gun contusions. Postmortem contusions take on that coloring!

So it may be that her postmortem staging also included further bodily assaults?


.

UK when you say multiple contusions to the sides of her head, are you speaking of the inside or the outside. If you are speaking of the outside, could you show me where in the autopsy? Thanks, Solace

 

[Veronica10]

With all due respect this is the most absurd theory I have ever heard and it is exactly why this case rages on. Patsy lost it that night and mortally hurt JonBenet and then went it to stage mode. The Ramseys have done an excellent job of keeping you all guessing by doing the "staging". And she did so because no one would believe that a parent would defile their daughter like this. That is exactly what the Grand Jury believed. Spllinters were found inside of JonBenet. That is also staging. The child wet her bed once again and it just infuriated Patsy. There is no sexual game going on.

But I guess it keeps the case going and this Board also. I am sorry but Veronica 10 is on the right track. I will concede she may have been hit with the flashlight in a rage. And Berke did not do it either.

Solace,
I am also getting frustrated at the wild theories. Patsy and John should have just signed their names to the RN. JonBenet RIP.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

The most absurd theories I've ever heard were the ones where the intruder wore Patsy's jacket to frame her and the one where Patsy let in Santa thinking it was a photo session for JB, then fell asleep while he let in a group of pedos with a rabbit who took turns molesting JB and strangling her off and on for over an hour until one of them broke out from the pack and got extra rough, causing her death...and then they forced Patsy to write the RN and keep their secret until her death - all without leaving any forensic evidence of being there at all.

Wow, O/T - that may be the longest run-on sentence I've written yet.

 

[Solace]

Solace,
I am also getting frustrated at the wild theories. Patsy and John should have just signed their names to the RN. JonBenet RIP.

Hi Veronica.

Exactly. As NP just posted, a lot of these abrasions came when she was face down in the cellar and still alive, but comatose from the blow to the head. And the urine stained underwear was stained in the front as NP said. She was face down and her lunatic parents were staging the murder because she for all intents and purposes was gone. Maybe they even felt her head and could feel the crack. It is possible.

 

[Veronica10]

Hi Veronica.

Exactly. As NP just posted, a lot of these abrasions came when she was face down in the cellar and still alive, but comatose from the blow to the head. And the urine stained underwear was stained in the front as NP said. She was face down and her lunatic parents were staging the murder because she for all intents and purposes was gone. Maybe they even felt her head and could feel the crack. It is possible.

Yes, I'm sure (most likely) PR first heard the crack and I'm sure they knew she was essentially dead when they felt the back of her head. She was completely unconcious, near death, after the head blow. No defensive marks whatsoever. And she was a sparkplug! If she had been conscious I think JonBenet would have fought like hell. There would have been marks all over herself and she would have seriously wounded, scratched the perpetrator (stager). Poor little kid.