Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[WhereAreTheyNow]

Slightly offtopic rhetorical thoughts.....

I wonder how much of Kolar's BDI theory is based on evidence not yet released to the public.

I also wonder how much of his theory is based on evidence not yet released to LE.

Why was/is Steve Thomas so sure that PDI?

[/derail]

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
BBM: mmm, and that is why they are pertinent. They offer evidence for the general case not the specific. It is the pathology of a brain injury that is being commented upon, not some particular case.

Presumably the facts do not match your favorite theory?

.

Well, what happens in general is interesting and all that, but it doesn’t really tell us much about this case and this case is what we’re concerned with. So, I strongly disagree with your opinion on Rorke’s opinion (as reported by Kolar).

Your presumption is wrong.
...

AK

 

[UKGuy]

Well, what happens in general is interesting and all that, but it doesn’t really tell us much about this case and this case is what we’re concerned with. So, I strongly disagree with your opinion on Rorke’s opinion (as reported by Kolar).

Your presumption is wrong.
...

AK

Anti-K,
Rorke’s opinion is telling us that JonBenet could have lain alive for a substantial period of time, and that is new information relevant to the case.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Slightly offtopic rhetorical thoughts.....

I wonder how much of Kolar's BDI theory is based on evidence not yet released to the public.

I also wonder how much of his theory is based on evidence not yet released to LE.

Why was/is Steve Thomas so sure that PDI?

[/derail]

WhereAreTheyNow,
For sure Kolar will be inspired by stuff he cannot make public. The status of the missing piece of the paintbrush is a case in point. Did the mythical intruder leave with a piece of broken paintbrush or was it left inside JonBenet as an item of staging?

I'm not so sure that Steve Thomas was PDI, that position might simply have been their, i.e. BPD, best tactic to crack the case, viewing PR as the weakest link?

In his book ST outlines the sexual trauma inflicted upon JonBenet in some detail, yet he never puts PR in the frame for that.

So I reckon they always knew that someone else was responsible for the chronic abuse, and that legal issues prevented a comprehensive theory from being publicly developed?

.

 

[BBB167893]

I'm not so sure that Steve Thomas was PDI, that position might simply have been their, i.e. BPD, best tactic to crack the case, viewing PR as the weakest link?

In his book ST outlines the sexual trauma inflicted upon JonBenet in some detail, yet he never puts PR in the frame for that.

So I reckon they always knew that someone else was responsible for the chronic abuse, and that legal issues prevented a comprehensive theory from being publicly developed?

.

I've often wondered about that.

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
Rorke’s opinion is telling us that JonBenet could have lain alive for a substantial period of time, and that is new information relevant to the case.

.

Rorke’s opinion, as told by Kolar, is an opinion uninformed by the evidence, even contradicted by the evidence. Therefore, Rorke’s opinion, as told by Kolar, is irrelevant, and perhaps even misleading.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

WhereAreTheyNow,
For sure Kolar will be inspired by stuff he cannot make public. The status of the missing piece of the paintbrush is a case in point. Did the mythical intruder leave with a piece of broken paintbrush or was it left inside JonBenet as an item of staging?

I'm not so sure that Steve Thomas was PDI, that position might simply have been their, i.e. BPD, best tactic to crack the case, viewing PR as the weakest link?

In his book ST outlines the sexual trauma inflicted upon JonBenet in some detail, yet he never puts PR in the frame for that.

So I reckon they always knew that someone else was responsible for the chronic abuse, and that legal issues prevented a comprehensive theory from being publicly developed?

.

Thomas was PDI through and through and beyond all doubt. He suggested that the prior abuse may have been the result of some sort of corporal punishment inflicted by Mrs Ramsey, so, yes, he does “put her in the frame for that.”
...

AK

 

[UKGuy]

Rorke’s opinion, as told by Kolar, is an opinion uninformed by the evidence, even contradicted by the evidence. Therefore, Rorke’s opinion, as told by Kolar, is irrelevant, and perhaps even misleading.
...

AK

BBM: Just what evidence are you referring to? Your rhetoric fails to impress, patently you have an agenda to promote!

 

[UKGuy]

I've often wondered about that.

SuperDave,
Absolutely, why bother with the exegesis on the trauma then fail to deliver? I reckon ST realized that the politics were not on his side so ended up with a politically correct homicide theory, i.e. PDI, which never addressed what was known, i.e. chronic abuse of JonBenet.

This is why Steve Thomas has largely vanished into anonymity, exceptions to invitiations by Tricia etc, he knows there was a coverup and that the R's got their way, he just does not want to publicly admit it?

.

 

[Anti-K]

BBM: Just what evidence are you referring to? Your rhetoric fails to impress, patently you have an agenda to promote!

Evidence = the autopsy report. The autopsy report contradicts Rorke’s opinion (as reported by Kolar).
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

SuperDave,
Absolutely, why bother with the exegesis on the trauma then fail to deliver? I reckon ST realized that the politics were not on his side so ended up with a politically correct homicide theory, i.e. PDI, which never addressed what was known, i.e. chronic abuse of JonBenet.

This is why Steve Thomas has largely vanished into anonymity, exceptions to invitiations by Tricia etc, he knows there was a coverup and that the R's got their way, he just does not want to publicly admit it?

.

You’re spreading a falsehood. Thomas did attribute the prior abuse to Mrs Ramsey when theorizing that it was a form of corporal punishment.
...

AK

 

[midwest mama]

SuperDave,
Absolutely, why bother with the exegesis on the trauma then fail to deliver? I reckon ST realized that the politics were not on his side so ended up with a politically correct homicide theory, i.e. PDI, which never addressed what was known, i.e. chronic abuse of JonBenet.

This is why Steve Thomas has largely vanished into anonymity, exceptions to invitiations by Tricia etc, he knows there was a coverup and that the R's got their way, he just does not want to publicly admit it?

.

Maybe off topic here, but must post this copy of an article in the NY Times:

Call for Inquiry After Detective Says District Attorney Botched JonBenet Investigation
By JAMES BROOKE
Published: August 8, 1998

Boulder's Mayor today demanded an investigation into complaints by a city police detective that the District Attorney's office had ''effectively crippled'' the 20-month-old investigation into the killing of JonBenet Ramsey.

''These charges should not be left unchallenged,'' Mayor Bob Greenlee said of an eight-page letter of resignation that Steve Thomas, the police detective, tendered here on Thursday. ''It is confusing and unacceptable to me that people are unaccountable, or not responding.''

Today, which would have been JonBenet's eighth birthday, found official Colorado in turmoil over the detective's farewell blast. Calling for the nomination of a special prosecutor in the case, Mr. Thomas wrote, ''I believe the District Attorney's office is thoroughly compromised.''

Suzanne Laurion, a spokeswoman for Alex Hunter, the Boulder County District Attorney, called the letter ''substantially false and misleading.'' In a joint statement, Boulder police and prosecutors said: ''Our primary responsibility is to gather sufficient evidence to prosecute the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, and to further address these charges would only sidetrack the case.''

--------------end of Times article----------------------

Again, this is also an off topic comment, but ties in with how Thomas felt, having just this evening seen a John Walsh show called "The Hunt" about the Sid Wells murder, in which BPD is now seeking suspect Thayne Smika. I did not know that there was a document found in the reviewed case information in which Alex Hunter wrote AHEAD of the grand jury investigation of the Wells case, to Smika's atty, that he would not indict Smika. Good grief. Hunter then went on to misuse the services of a grand jury, and ultimately gave the "not enough evidence to file charges" speech. The fix was in ahead of time, and this was in 1983.

IMO, Thomas put 2 and 2 together once he had investigated the case well enough to suspect the R's complicity, and in order to save his own integrity and sanity, had to withdraw from his connection to LE at that time. Looking realistically, Thomas was probably expected to become someone who could be completely "managed" by Hunter and whoever else were the "powers" behind all the compromise Thomas felt existed in Boulder at the time. Thomas was a good detective, but his other relative inexperience at the time in homicide turned out to be what has repeatedly been used against him in order to discredit his services on the case. Just what "they" needed to have in place.

A shame that when Thomas turned out to be such a good detective and even risked challenging the R's on Larry King Live, the end of the story could only result in him having to forsake his own LE career.

Imagine having Thomas and Kolar being able to join forces and make enough noise to convince Greg Testa that this cold case DOES deserve a fresh approach!

 

[questfortrue]

Anti-K,
Rorke’s opinion is telling us that JonBenet could have lain alive for a substantial period of time, and that is new information relevant to the case.

.

For ws info/records, more about Dr. Rorke . . .
Dr. Rorke has explained in a court of law before giving testimony in a child abuse case, she assists MEs and forensic pathologists. According to her, “Because an important part of forensic pathology involves examination of the nervous system, and the forensic pathologists, who may have inadequate or incomplete training in neuropathology, sometimes need the help of a specialist in neuropathology to assist them in their work.”

From an interview with Dr. Rorke: Because of her experience in pediatric neuropathology she began to work with pediatric child abuse cases, acquiring experience and expertise in that area, and in 1986 became president of the medical staff at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Since neuropathologists were in short supply the demands on their expertise involved so much traveling that she says, “I began to look upon the airport as my home.”
Lucy's association with the Medical Examiner of Philadelphia plunged her, she says, into the world of murder and mayhem. All unexplained deaths of infants and children became a special focus, including the unsolved murder in 1996 of JonBenet Ramsey.

 

[BOESP]

The terminology was "corporal cleansing" rather than "corporal punishment." That tells me that, in theory, Patsy did it while cleansing JonBenet (which also could explain the evidence of sexual trauma). The big question for me is what generated the need for that type cleansing?

 

[Anti-K]

For ws info/records, more about Dr. Rorke . . .
Dr. Rorke has explained in a court of law before giving testimony in a child abuse case, she assists MEs and forensic pathologists. According to her, “Because an important part of forensic pathology involves examination of the nervous system, and the forensic pathologists, who may have inadequate or incomplete training in neuropathology, sometimes need the help of a specialist in neuropathology to assist them in their work.”

From an interview with Dr. Rorke: Because of her experience in pediatric neuropathology she began to work with pediatric child abuse cases, acquiring experience and expertise in that area, and in 1986 became president of the medical staff at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Since neuropathologists were in short supply the demands on their expertise involved so much traveling that she says, “I began to look upon the airport as my home.”
Lucy's association with the Medical Examiner of Philadelphia plunged her, she says, into the world of murder and mayhem. All unexplained deaths of infants and children became a special focus, including the unsolved murder in 1996 of JonBenet Ramsey.

Yes, BPD consulted Rorke. I know that. But, the words Kolar put into her mouth make it seem as if was speaking in general and not specifically about Jonbenet.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

The terminology was "corporal cleansing" rather than "corporal punishment." That tells me that, in theory, Patsy did it while cleansing JonBenet (which also could explain the evidence of sexual trauma). The big question for me is what generated the need for that type cleansing?

BBM
No, you're wrong. I quote and BBM:

“A much more likely cause of the injuries to my thinking was some sort of corporal punishment being meted out as discipline if Jonbenet wet or soiled the bed.” Thomas; p. 227
...

AK

 

[BOESP]

BBM
No, you're wrong. I quote and BBM:

“A much more likely cause of the injuries to my thinking was some sort of corporal punishment being meted out as discipline if Jonbenet wet or soiled the bed.” Thomas; p. 227
...

AK

I stand corrected.

 

[UKGuy]

Maybe off topic here, but must post this copy of an article in the NY Times:

Call for Inquiry After Detective Says District Attorney Botched JonBenet Investigation
By JAMES BROOKE
Published: August 8, 1998

Boulder's Mayor today demanded an investigation into complaints by a city police detective that the District Attorney's office had ''effectively crippled'' the 20-month-old investigation into the killing of JonBenet Ramsey.

''These charges should not be left unchallenged,'' Mayor Bob Greenlee said of an eight-page letter of resignation that Steve Thomas, the police detective, tendered here on Thursday. ''It is confusing and unacceptable to me that people are unaccountable, or not responding.''

Today, which would have been JonBenet's eighth birthday, found official Colorado in turmoil over the detective's farewell blast. Calling for the nomination of a special prosecutor in the case, Mr. Thomas wrote, ''I believe the District Attorney's office is thoroughly compromised.''

Suzanne Laurion, a spokeswoman for Alex Hunter, the Boulder County District Attorney, called the letter ''substantially false and misleading.'' In a joint statement, Boulder police and prosecutors said: ''Our primary responsibility is to gather sufficient evidence to prosecute the JonBenet Ramsey homicide, and to further address these charges would only sidetrack the case.''

--------------end of Times article----------------------

Again, this is also an off topic comment, but ties in with how Thomas felt, having just this evening seen a John Walsh show called "The Hunt" about the Sid Wells murder, in which BPD is now seeking suspect Thayne Smika. I did not know that there was a document found in the reviewed case information in which Alex Hunter wrote AHEAD of the grand jury investigation of the Wells case, to Smika's atty, that he would not indict Smika. Good grief. Hunter then went on to misuse the services of a grand jury, and ultimately gave the "not enough evidence to file charges" speech. The fix was in ahead of time, and this was in 1983.

IMO, Thomas put 2 and 2 together once he had investigated the case well enough to suspect the R's complicity, and in order to save his own integrity and sanity, had to withdraw from his connection to LE at that time. Looking realistically, Thomas was probably expected to become someone who could be completely "managed" by Hunter and whoever else were the "powers" behind all the compromise Thomas felt existed in Boulder at the time. Thomas was a good detective, but his other relative inexperience at the time in homicide turned out to be what has repeatedly been used against him in order to discredit his services on the case. Just what "they" needed to have in place.

A shame that when Thomas turned out to be such a good detective and even risked challenging the R's on Larry King Live, the end of the story could only result in him having to forsake his own LE career.

Imagine having Thomas and Kolar being able to join forces and make enough noise to convince Greg Testa that this cold case DOES deserve a fresh approach!

midwest mama,
ITA with your analysis. Sadly Steve Thomas was the fall guy, meaning no disrespect to him at all, for some reason the homicide investigation appears to have been setup to fail.

Alex Hunter's fix allows us to assume he performed the same service for the R's, no wonder they do not want all the GJ documents released.

.

 

[UKGuy]

You’re spreading a falsehood. Thomas did attribute the prior abuse to Mrs Ramsey when theorizing that it was a form of corporal punishment.
...

AK

Anti-K,
That was a theory proposed in his book, yet he offered no evidence in support of it. We know JonBenet was both chronically and acutely sexually abused, her enlarged hymen is testimony to this.

In late 2006, it was reported that Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse Team, visited JBR's bedroom on the third day of the investigation. "Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material."

Given some of the details furnished by James Kolar the above account is consistent. Holly Smith was dropped from the case and served a non-disclosure notice on anything to do with the sexual abuse of JonBenet, her speciality, her autobiography was redacted on those grounds.

Steve Thomas' PDI theory is just that, something to fill a book out which would not frighten the natives, and allow him to offer an account for why he left the case.

Its a bit like any IDI, it could have happened, but guess what, nobody takes it too seriously!

.

 

[Tadpole12]

Yes, BPD consulted Rorke. I know that. But, the words Kolar put into her mouth make it seem as if was speaking in general and not specifically about Jonbenet.
...

AK

Heyya Anti-K

But doesn't JBR's head injury follow that general pattern, given the coup countre coup injury, and the depressed fracture, would not

transcalvarial herniation,
( the brain squeezes through a fracture or a surgical site in the skull.[SUP][4][/SUP] )

and tonsillar herniation,
( also called downward cerebellar herniation,[SUP][4][/SUP] or "coning", the cerebellar tonsils move downward through the foramen magnum possibly causing compression of the lower brainstem and upper cervical spinal cord as they pass through the foramen magnum.[SUP][5][/SUP] )

be presented?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_herniation