Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[Seeker]

Seeker,

Page 431, PMPT pb:

"When they had gathered sufficient information, Ainsworth, Pete Hofstrom, Trip DeMuth, and Detective Sergeant Wickman met with the coroner, John Meyer. After reviewing the photos and this new information, Meyer concluded that the injuries on JonBenet's face and back were, in fact, consistent with those produced by a stun gun."

BlueCrab

You cannot rely on the conjector written by Larry Schiller. PMPT is full of inaccuracies and third party info that is speculative.

A coroner MUST by LAW amend any autopsy report if they deem the initial information is incorrect.

Meyer never concluded any such thing. He said they were "abrasions", not burns. The autopsy contained no legally required amendments to state that either. Meyer did not need to rely on "photo's", he had the body and his own set of photographs.
What is written in that passage of PMPT is bunk.

 

[Toltec]

No stun gun marks in the Coroners report....abrasions, not burns. A friend of my son was "stunned" by a policeman and he had to go to the hospital for stitches. He had second-degree burns that made his skin peel.

This is from Wechts book "Who killed JonBenet Ramsey"...page 181:

But on page eight Meyer described his careful-and, to Wecht, quite thorough-dissection of the neck. Meyer checked each layer for injuries that a pathologist knew were normally associated with strangulation by a ligature like that cord. Despite the noose wrapped around the neck, Meyer found no hemorrhaging in the so-called "strap" muscles on the sides of the neck. That was an important point to someone like Wecht, who really understood the physiology of strangulation. The lack of hemorrhages under the skin of the neck proved to him that there was no real intent to strangle JonBenet.

A lack of damage in the front of the neck was also noteworthy. Meyer noted no fractures of the U-shaped hyoid bone at the top of the throat or the delicate thryroid cartilages-the assembly commonly called the Adam's apple that make up the larynx. Below that Meyer still found no damage to the cricoid cartilages, which are the trachea. In many cases those structures are broken during strangulation, especially if manual choking is performed from the front. JonBenet's were intact. The tongue also failed to show any damage or injury, Meyer found.

My belief is the head injury came first and a cord was simply tied around her neck. As the swelling from the brain injury grew, the cord became embedded in her skin.

The "strangulation" was staging IMO. Patsy's clothing fibers were found on the cord and in the cord knots. I doubt JonBenet would sit still while her mother tied a knot around her neck. Even the burrow is perfectly straight, except for a slight upward deviation in the back.

 

[Nehemiah]

The tongue also failed to show any damage or injury, Meyer found.

In my recent readings about the BTK's murders by strangulation or hanging, it is always noted that the victims' tongues were swollen, or damaged in some way.

 

[UKGuy]

My belief is the head injury came first and a cord was simply tied around her neck. As the swelling from the brain injury grew, the cord became embedded in her skin.

Toltec,

If the head injury preceded her asphyxiation, why should there be so little bleeding inside her head?

 

[Zman]

Absolutely. The pineapple doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the crime. I found a package of OREOS behind a chair one morning, and they weren't there the night before. Some little "elves" obviously helped themselves to a midnight snack, while the shopkeepers were sleeping, so I think you are more than likely on the right track.

She could have even "pretended" to be asleep, so she could sneak downstairs later for a little snack without mommy or daddy knowing and even snuck back upstairs. Anything is possible. Wasn't there a statement about the wrong bowl or spoon used for this? Sounds like the mark of little hands! Children can be quite sneaky--well at least in MY house they sure try!

I don't think so. PR and JR say that it's unlikly that JBR could have reached the bowl or spoon used. Also they were not even sure she could open the refrigerater.

The pineapple is a big IDI plus because the R's would have never used the bowl and spoon in question and would have never forgot to get rid of it during the supposed staging.

Not to mention a child in search of a snack is not usually headed for the pineapple and most 6 year olds are pretty scared of headed down stairs by themselves.

 

[BlueCrab]

No stun gun marks in the Coroners report....abrasions, not burns. A friend of my son was "stunned" by a policeman and he had to go to the hospital for stitches. He had second-degree burns that made his skin peel.

This is from Wechts book "Who killed JonBenet Ramsey"...page 181:

But on page eight Meyer described his careful-and, to Wecht, quite thorough-dissection of the neck. Meyer checked each layer for injuries that a pathologist knew were normally associated with strangulation by a ligature like that cord. Despite the noose wrapped around the neck, Meyer found no hemorrhaging in the so-called "strap" muscles on the sides of the neck. That was an important point to someone like Wecht, who really understood the physiology of strangulation. The lack of hemorrhages under the skin of the neck proved to him that there was no real intent to strangle JonBenet.

A lack of damage in the front of the neck was also noteworthy. Meyer noted no fractures of the U-shaped hyoid bone at the top of the throat or the delicate thryroid cartilages-the assembly commonly called the Adam's apple that make up the larynx. Below that Meyer still found no damage to the cricoid cartilages, which are the trachea. In many cases those structures are broken during strangulation, especially if manual choking is performed from the front. JonBenet's were intact. The tongue also failed to show any damage or injury, Meyer found.

My belief is the head injury came first and a cord was simply tied around her neck. As the swelling from the brain injury grew, the cord became embedded in her skin.

The "strangulation" was staging IMO. Patsy's clothing fibers were found on the cord and in the cord knots. I doubt JonBenet would sit still while her mother tied a knot around her neck. Even the burrow is perfectly straight, except for a slight upward deviation in the back.

toltec,

What Wecht was describing in his book was a "gentle" strangulation, the kind used in sexual breath control games like EA and AEA. The goal was breath control, not strangulation. That's why the hyoid bone wasn't broken nor was the tongue swollen, as found in deliberate strangulations. IMO JonBenet was accidentally strangled, not deliberately strangled, while erotic asphyxiation sex was being performed on her (probably involuntarily).

The elaborate device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for breath control games. It's not a garrote. Garrotes don't look like that. The hit on the head came after JonBenet was dead and was staging to try to make it appear as though the perp was a foreign terrorist -- thus directing suspicion away from the family.

Wecht is convinced EA was performed on JonBenet; but he incorrectly points the finger at John as the perp. It wasn't John -- it was kids who didn't know what the hell they were doing, and they accidentally strangled JonBenet. The parents were engaged in some of the staging and most of the coverup.

BlueCrab

 

[tipper]

toltec,

What Wecht was describing in his book was a "gentle" strangulation, the kind used in sexual breath control games like EA and AEA. The goal was breath control, not strangulation. That's why the hyoid bone wasn't broken nor was the tongue swollen, as found in deliberate strangulations. IMO JonBenet was accidentally strangled, not deliberately strangled, while erotic asphyxiation sex was being performed on her (probably involuntarily).

The elaborate device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was designed for breath control games. It's not a garrote. Garrotes don't look like that. The hit on the head came after JonBenet was dead and was staging to try to make it appear as though the perp was a foreign terrorist -- thus directing suspicion away from the family.

Wecht is convinced EA was performed on JonBenet; but he incorrectly points the finger at John as the perp. It wasn't John -- it was kids who didn't know what the hell they were doing, and they accidentally strangled JonBenet. The parents were engaged in some of the staging and most of the coverup.

BlueCrab

The hyoid bone is not always broken during deliberate strangulation. This is especially true with children.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think so. PR and JR say that it's unlikly that JBR could have reached the bowl or spoon used. Also they were not even sure she could open the refrigerater.

The pineapple is a big IDI plus because the R's would have never used the bowl and spoon in question and would have never forgot to get rid of it during the supposed staging.

Not to mention a child in search of a snack is not usually headed for the pineapple and most 6 year olds are pretty scared of headed down stairs by themselves.

My kid must be a super genius then! And very brave too! Geeez, he could open the fridge when he was three, and yes lots of kids including mine LOVE fruit!

Kids are CLIMBERS! My son just grabs a chair and hops onto the counter to retrieve anything he wants. The rule in my house is, fruit is always acceptable at anytime and if you're hungry at night, go grab something just clean up whatever mess you make.

 

[Charlie]

I don't think so. PR and JR say that it's unlikly that JBR could have reached the bowl or spoon used. Also they were not even sure she could open the refrigerater.

The pineapple is a big IDI plus because the R's would have never used the bowl and spoon in question and would have never forgot to get rid of it during the supposed staging.

Not to mention a child in search of a snack is not usually headed for the pineapple and most 6 year olds are pretty scared of headed down stairs by themselves.

I dont think its implausible to believe that the rams would leave out the bowl in the supposed staging when they messed up plenty already. ie Patsy not getting changed...that one raised eyebrows immediatly.

 

[narlacat]

QUOTE>>The pineapple is a big IDI plus because the R's would have never used the bowl and spoon in question and would have never forgot to get rid of it during the supposed staging.<<

What if the R's didnt know the bowl and spoon were there because they hadnt known JonBenet was up eating pineapple...

 

[why_nutt]

The hyoid bone is not always broken during deliberate strangulation. This is especially true with children.

True enough, but what was also missing from JonBenet's autopsy was a bitten tongue, which is a frequent feature of strangulation while alive. We have all bitten our tongues at least once when doing something as ordinary as eating. Biting the tongue becomes even more likely as the victim moves it and their jaws around frantically, struggling to open their own airway wider to let what air they can get through. And yet, JonBenet's tongue was pristine, not a single tiny area of damage to be found. This indicates that JonBenet was already unconscous when the ligature was put around her and tightened, since an unconscious person does not fight for life.

 

[Charlie]

True enough, but what was also missing from JonBenet's autopsy was a bitten tongue, which is a frequent feature of strangulation while alive. We have all bitten our tongues at least once when doing something as ordinary as eating. Biting the tongue becomes even more likely as the victim moves it and their jaws around frantically, struggling to open their own airway wider to let what air they can get through. And yet, JonBenet's tongue was pristine, not a single tiny area of damage to be found. This indicates that JonBenet was already unconscous when the ligature was put around her and tightened, since an unconscious person does not fight for life.

excellent observation

 

[UKGuy]

The pineapple is singularly important because it tells you what nobody else involved would, that JonBenet was alive at a particular time after arriving back home from the white's that fateful night.

There are three notable aspects to JonBenet's death e.g. she was strangled, she did suffer head trauma, and there was multiple staging.

If you remove the staging assumptions you are still left with a homicide victim who was both violently strangled and assaulted!

The staging is there not to coverup that she was killed, but to obscure the why?

JonBenet was 6-years old, vulnerable and defenceless, the degree of violence used was excessive.

If you look closely at her autopsy photos you can see from the markings on her neck, either side of her trachea, that these are likely to be the marks from someones fingers or thumbs.

There are marks on her neck that dont appear to be the result of ligature strangulation. These marks seem more consistent with manual strangulation.

I suspect JonBenet was manually strangled, and that her head trauma may be the result of her assailant releasing her body lifeless to fall backwards onto some blunt object thereby splitting her skull.


The rest may be staging by all the interested parties involved which has been revised on an ad hoc basis, each episode of staging reflecting features particular to one or more person who has decided the prior staging to be insufficient. Eventually she arrives at her final destination in the basement appearing to be kidnapped from her bed, ligature strangled, and sexually assaulted!




.

 

[Zman]

I dont think its implausible to believe that the rams would leave out the bowl in the supposed staging when they messed up plenty already. ie Patsy not getting changed...that one raised eyebrows immediatly.

Well they still had over 3 hours to go over every inch of that house. All they had to do was tell the police they were waiting for the call and then called police when they did not recieve one. Why write a rn that gives you such a firm excuse not to call police and then call them 3 hours early. Now that should raise an eyebrow for you.

The pineapple is singularly important because it tells you what nobody else involved would, that JonBenet was alive at a particular time after arriving back home from the white's that fateful night.

There are three notable aspects to JonBenet's death e.g. she was strangled, she did suffer head trauma, and there was multiple staging.

If you remove the staging assumptions you are still left with a homicide victim who was both violently strangled and assaulted!

The staging is there not to coverup that she was killed, but to obscure the why?

JonBenet was 6-years old, vulnerable and defenceless, the degree of violence used was excessive.

If you look closely at her autopsy photos you can see from the markings on her neck, either side of her trachea, that these are likely to be the marks from someones fingers or thumbs.

There are marks on her neck that dont appear to be the result of ligature strangulation. These marks seem more consistent with manual strangulation.

I suspect JonBenet was manually strangled, and that her head trauma may be the result of her assailant releasing her body lifeless to fall backwards onto some blunt object thereby splitting her skull.


The rest may be staging by all the interested parties involved which has been revised on an ad hoc basis, each episode of staging reflecting features particular to one or more person who has decided the prior staging to be insufficient. Eventually she arrives at her final destination in the basement appearing to be kidnapped from her bed, ligature strangled, and sexually assaulted!.

All possible.
But it seems to me that the only staging that was done is an attempt to frame JR for molestation. Her death seems as you so rightly put it "excessive." A brutal message of hatred.

 

[Charlie]

Well they still had over 3 hours to go over every inch of that house. All they had to do was tell the police they were waiting for the call and then called police when they did not recieve one. Why write a rn that gives you such a firm excuse not to call police and then call them 3 hours early. Now that should raise an eyebrow for you.

But it seems to me that the only staging that was done is an attempt to frame JR for molestation. Her death seems as you so rightly put it "excessive." A brutal message of hatred.

i havent the slightest clue what your argument is there,unless who want to compare what clue raised the biggest eyebrow haha.

We have been here before, again its all individual interpretation, but wasnt it the argument that if JBR was killed in revenge towards john, she firstly wouldnt have been hidden, the killer would have wanted to be blunt in his message and also wouldnt have wiped JBR down, redressed her and then wrap in her a favorite blanket...I think some authority whether is was BPD or FBI but someone explained that revenge murders follow a certain pattern of blatent malicious attack...OUT IN THE OPEN

The rule in my house is, fruit is always acceptable at anytime and if you're hungry at night, go grab something just clean up whatever mess you make.

I dont think u run your house like a zoo, thats a great way to treat your kids.

 

[Zman]

i havent the slightest clue what your argument is there,unless who want to compare what clue raised the biggest eyebrow haha.

We have been here before, again its all individual interpretation, but wasnt it the argument that if JBR was killed in revenge towards john, she firstly wouldnt have been hidden, the killer would have wanted to be blunt in his message and also wouldnt have wiped JBR down, redressed her and then wrap in her a favorite blanket...I think some authority whether is was BPD or FBI but someone explained that revenge murders follow a certain pattern of blatent malicious attack...OUT IN THE OPEN.

Once agian a RDI supporter fails to deal with my point and move right on to thier RDI propaganda.
Maybe this person does have knowldege of patterns police would expect and did his best not make it obvious. It's even a claimed knowledge in the RN.
Why wouldn't a killer wipe down his victim? Maybe he/she thought fingerprints were left on the body.
How do you know JBR was redressed by the attacker?
Maybe he just carried her in the blanket and it had nothing to do with it being her favorite.

You have no clue about my argument huh? It's more likely you just don't have an answer. How easy can I make it for you?

Why write a RN that gives you till 10:00 am to get a call from the kidnappers to get your daughter back and then for no real reason call police at 7:00 am before you finished checking the house for any possible evidence or changing your clothes? Why not just take your time and make sure everything is done? The writer must of picked 10:00 am for a reason.

Wait they called at 6 am thats 4 hours early. Or if the word "tomorrow" meant the next day they called the police 28 hours before they had to.

LE: Why didn't you call us right away?
R's: Because the note said not to or they would kill her. We waited for the call but it never came so then we called the police.

Seems like that would have worked. If they wrote the RN then they bought themselves the time. Why not use it?

Is it getting any easier for you?

 

[Charlie]

Once agian a RDI supporter fails to deal with my point and move right on to thier RDI propaganda.
Maybe this person does have knowldege of patterns police would expect and did his best not make it obvious. It's even a claimed knowledge in the RN.

ok...so knowledge of police patterns claimed in Rn would be
1. "If the money is in any way tampered with, she dies"
2. "You will be scanned for electronic devices"
3. "we are familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics"
I wouldnt call this knowledge of police patterns i would call it being a movie buff. its so damn scripted its hilarious. When we talk about the FBI and LE looking at a crime scene and detereming the motive behind it ie revenge.. i would imagine they would use Physiological profiling, a technique derived from studying criminal behavior in past cases. I dont think LE looked at the RN and thought gee wiz this perp knows his stuff when it comes to police. It raises the question of why would a perp go through all of this in order to take revenge on the rams and them miss the opportunity to let them know it...

How do you know JBR was redressed by the attacker?

Didnt LE say she was wiped down and redressed...in size 10 or 12 underwear? Will have to find source on that.

Why write a RN that gives you till 10:00 am to get a call from the kidnappers to get your daughter back and then for no real reason call police at 7:00 am before you finished checking the house for any possible evidence or changing your clothes? Why not just take your time and make sure everything is done? The writer must of picked 10:00 am for a reason.

Wait they called at 6 am thats 4 hours early. Or if the word "tomorrow" meant the next day they called the police 28 hours before they had to.

The rams had to be at the airport at what like 6:45 or something so suspicsion would have been raised as why they would wait till say 7am to call the police because the naturally would have found JBR missing when they rose early for thier flight.
You have to remember when reading the RN that the author was trying to take the p.o.v of a foreign faction..of course a foreign faction would say dont call the police. The rams obviously thought lets write dont call police because that was what a f.faction would say..but we naturally do call police because as parents we would want help.

Seems like that would have worked. If they wrote the RN then they bought themselves the time. Why not use it?

You have to remember there was no real threat of she dies she dies bc the rams knew she was dead. If they had waited it out by themselves then found her without a witness it would have looked more suspect. they wanted ppl there, the knew how they wanted it played out when the placed JBR in their hiding spot.

 

[Zman]

>> Your house sounds like a zoo to me. Why have a rule? <<

Tricia should come along and delete this statement/post of yours zman. That was rude. I think you owe Linda7NJ an apology. You are the only poster here who is rude and argumentative. Remember everyone is entitled to their opinion. I dont agree with everyone here either but I'm not rude to them.

I'm not trying to be mean to her just trying to point out that whats normal in one home may be abnormal in another. My original post was concerning facts about the case. The strange bowl and spoon used and the fact that the R's were not even sure JBR could open the special fridge they had. I don't feel Linda7NJ comment about her family really matters.
But yes the zoo comment went to far.
I do apologize to LInda7NJ

 

[Zman]

The rams had to be at the airport at what like 6:45 or something so suspicsion would have been raised as why they would wait till say 7am to call the police because the naturally would have found JBR missing when they rose early for thier flight.
You have to remember when reading the RN that the author was trying to take the p.o.v of a foreign faction..of course a foreign faction would say dont call the police. The rams obviously thought lets write dont call police because that was what a f.faction would say..but we naturally do call police because as parents we would want help.
You have to remember there was no real threat of she dies she dies bc the rams knew she was dead. If they had waited it out by themselves then found her without a witness it would have looked more suspect. they wanted ppl there, the knew how they wanted it played out when the placed JBR in their hiding spot.

I hope I'm not being argumentative here but the R's don't have to be anywhere at anytime. All they had to do was call the pilot and cancel the flight. They could say JR didn't feel well or PR was sick or anything they wanted.

Wanting people there is not my point. My point is if your doing a elaborate staging and cover up. Why rush the job when you have given yourself at least 4 more hours to check the house.

Who says they would of had to find her? They didn't find her till 1 pm anyway. So what if the police get there at 10:30 am instead of 6:am?

Found her without a witness? They called the police to their house. I'll bet the R's thought the police were going to seach the house for her.

 

[Charlie]

I hope I'm not being argumentative here but the R's don't have to be anywhere at anytime. All they had to do was call the pilot and cancel the flight. They could say JR didn't feel well or PR was sick or anything they wanted.

Wanting people there is not my point. My point is if your doing a elaborate staging and cover up. Why rush the job when you have given yourself at least 4 more hours to check the house.

Who says they would of had to find her? They didn't find her till 1 pm anyway. So what if the police get there at 10:30 am instead of 6:am?

Found her without a witness? They called the police to their house. I'll bet the R's thought the police were going to seach the house for her.

Gosh who knows why the rams didnt wait it out, we can only speculate. We dont even know the timeline of what happened that night, for all we know the rams could have killed JBR by 11pm, staged the scene in the basement and written the RN by 2am, then were left dwindling their thumbs for a few hours until they couldnt stand it any longer. We can see this agitation on John that very morning when JBRs body hadnt been found when the cops first came round at 6am like the rams had possible anticpated. by 1pm he was that bad arndt noticed and regrettable gave him something 'to do'. I understand your reasoning Zman as to why the rams could have waited and taken advantage of the RN for a few hours, but perhaps the rams didnt want to, perhaps they wanted the cops, their friends and thier pastor their now...it was time they thought. Perhaps the rams thought everything that could possible be done had been done to cover thier tracks now was 'showtime'.

As i'm typing the thought arises that maybe the rams had this debate also on that fateful morning!