Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

[UKGuy]

I recall something I saw long ago in one of Patsy's interviews. She was talking about BR and saying he always had ropes around "always trying to make a boat or something" were her EXACT words. BR was always tying knots, playing with ropes, etc. And lets not forget he owned a Swiss Army Knife (found in the basement).

DeeDee249,
Well so what. The presence of those objects does not prevent them being used by other people.

There was nothing special about the knotting. In fact as you know the restraints were loosely tied, and would have useless as a restraint.

In this case its either a BDI, JDI or PDI. To date there is little evidence placing Burke anywhere in the wine-cellar. Not so for either John or Patsy.

If it was BDI , just what was JR doing sending Burke to Fleet White's house so early in the morning? Burke could have said anything, he could have broke down in tears and confessed, dropping JR and PR in it!

BDI is a distinct possibility, particularly with JR and PR collabarating together, but, for me, it has a lower probability than either JR or PR. Naturally new evidence linking BR say to opening those Christmas gifts would change this.

Assuming PR and JR assisted each other with setting up the kidnappping scenario then from this I reckon both parents were aware that JonBenet had suffered prior abuse.

It all appeared a normal domestic scene until some point after the pineapple snack. Lets assume the initial assault did not take place in the breakfast bar, or the basement. So that suggests one of the bedrooms, then from there JonBenet was relocated to the basement to become part of an abduction staging.

So why was there this large time gap between JonBenet's estimated time of death, and the start of the abduction staging?

Could JonBenet have been alive albeit left in a coma, but only killed much later in the basement via the garrote?




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[DIRK SCHILLER]

just wanted to let you all know about a peruvian mom, which tortured and killed her 9 years old daughter, changing her story twice and staging(she raped her daughter with a stick )and said her boyfriend did it

http://www.americatv.com.pe/portal/...domingo-al-d-la-pericia-psicol-gica-de-la-mad

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Well so what. The presence of those objects does not prevent them being used by other people.

There was nothing special about the knotting. In fact as you know the restraints were loosely tied, and would have useless as a restraint.

In this case its either a BDI, JDI or PDI. To date there is little evidence placing Burke anywhere in the wine-cellar. Not so for either John or Patsy.

If it was BDI , just what was JR doing sending Burke to Fleet White's house so early in the morning? Burke could have said anything, he could have broke down in tears and confessed, dropping JR and PR in it!

BDI is a distinct possibility, particularly with JR and PR collabarating together, but, for me, it has a lower probability than either JR or PR. Naturally new evidence linking BR say to opening those Christmas gifts would change this.

Assuming PR and JR assisted each other with setting up the kidnappping scenario then from this I reckon both parents were aware that JonBenet had suffered prior abuse.

It all appeared a normal domestic scene until some point after the pineapple snack. Lets assume the initial assault did not take place in the breakfast bar, or the basement. So that suggests one of the bedrooms, then from there JonBenet was relocated to the basement to become part of an abduction staging.

So why was there this large time gap between JonBenet's estimated time of death, and the start of the abduction staging?

Could JonBenet have been alive albeit left in a coma, but only killed much later in the basement via the garrote?




.

We don't know how long the staging took, when it was started. We do not know exactly how long the head bash came before the strangulation, but we do know it could have been anywhere from minutes to about an hour.
I do not see evidence of a large time gap between the estimated TOD and the start of the staging. The staging could have started right away, and probably did. All we know is that she was alive when she was bashed and still alive when the garrote tightened. One loop of the ligature made a white mark (the others were reddish), and that seems to show that it was looped around her throat at least that one time after she was dead during the blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
It is possible that JB became comatose right after the head bash. But we still can't say one way or another when the staging began, so I don't see how you can say there was a large time gap. All we do know from the state of the body is that she was not moved after she had been dead for about 15 minutes. The livor mortis pattern tells us this, and with rigor mortis starting to form about 30 minutes after death, the livor pattern here takes precedence, as it forms first.
She was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, within 15 minutes of death. The white livor patterns on her back, formed after death, are evidence of the folds of her shirt as it pressed against her back as she lay on the blanket on the floor. The blanket itself may have caused the shirt to fold up, or it may have been just the loose fit of the sweatshirt-type top.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

sorry I do have questions

you are talking about sexual abuse,etc...if she was raped or was forced to oral/anal sex ( I think thats whats normally an intruder/abuser would do) why didn´t they find any sperms or was he using a condom all the time or did I miss something?
I´m sorry to write all this!

 

[UKGuy]

We don't know how long the staging took, when it was started. We do not know exactly how long the head bash came before the strangulation, but we do know it could have been anywhere from minutes to about an hour.
I do not see evidence of a large time gap between the estimated TOD and the start of the staging. The staging could have started right away, and probably did. All we know is that she was alive when she was bashed and still alive when the garrote tightened. One loop of the ligature made a white mark (the others were reddish), and that seems to show that it was looped around her throat at least that one time after she was dead during the blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis.
It is possible that JB became comatose right after the head bash. But we still can't say one way or another when the staging began, so I don't see how you can say there was a large time gap. All we do know from the state of the body is that she was not moved after she had been dead for about 15 minutes. The livor mortis pattern tells us this, and with rigor mortis starting to form about 30 minutes after death, the livor pattern here takes precedence, as it forms first.
She was placed on her back, head cocked to the right, within 15 minutes of death. The white livor patterns on her back, formed after death, are evidence of the folds of her shirt as it pressed against her back as she lay on the blanket on the floor. The blanket itself may have caused the shirt to fold up, or it may have been just the loose fit of the sweatshirt-type top.

DeeDee249,

We don't know how long the staging took, when it was started. We do not know exactly how long the head bash came before the strangulation, but we do know it could have been anywhere from minutes to about an hour.

Well I've estimated that it should take no longer than 1 hour to setup the wine-cellar scenario. If you think this time period is unrealistic then please offer an alternative.

I do not see evidence of a large time gap between the estimated TOD and the start of the staging.

Either do I.

What I do see it that given the wine-cellar setup will only take about 1 hour, and probably less. So from the Estimated Time of Death and the 911 call at 5:50 a.m. approximately Five Hours have passed.

What I am suggesting is that the wine-cellar setup appears to have taken place at short notice. Indeed closer to the 911 call, than 1:00 a.m.

The Ramsey's had five hours to fake a crime-scene and invent a matching story. Yet some of the critical elements are inconsistent with the Ramsey account.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

sorry I do have questions

you are talking about sexual abuse,etc...if she was raped or was forced to oral/anal sex ( I think thats whats normally an intruder/abuser would do) why didn´t they find any sperms or was he using a condom all the time or did I miss something?
I´m sorry to write all this!

There was no rape. There was no anal penetration or trauma. There was no semen and no condom use. The coroner found no evidence of penetration with a penis, but felt the vaginal injuries were the result of penetration with a finger.

 

[UKGuy]

sorry I do have questions

you are talking about sexual abuse,etc...if she was raped or was forced to oral/anal sex ( I think thats whats normally an intruder/abuser would do) why didn´t they find any sperms or was he using a condom all the time or did I miss something?
I´m sorry to write all this!

DIRK SCHILLER,
These are important questions. Why, because they suggest the mythical intruder was not successful in either an assault involving genital penetration or a physical abduction!

Yes there was no semen dna discovered on JonBenet's person. So apart from the foreign touch dna found on JonBenet's underwear and longjohns, for which a simple transfer might expain its presence, there is zero forensic evidence linking to anyone outside of the Ramsey household.

All the forensic evidence available does connect the parents with the wine-cellar crime-scene, e.g. fibers, knowledge regarding the size-12's, and location of the wine-cellar.


Coroner Meyer cited digital penetration and sexual contact which I interpret as abuse and staging to mask it.

If there was only splinters of wood to be found inside JonBenet then this might suggest that the same person who constructed the garrote was the same person who enacted the digital penetration?

Then again Coroner Meyer could be of the opinion that the sexual contact and digital penetration were inflicted simultaneously?

With a piece of the paintbrush still missing it could be it was deliberately left inside JonBenet to mask any prior sexual contact.

In the event the JonBenet case evidence becomes public its the absence or presence of this missing piece that might shed more light upon the motivation behind the brutalizing of JonBenet's body?




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[Nehemiah]

Old thread with interesting info about head blow, marks on face, scarf, etc. To think it was so hotly debated for years about which came first, the blow to head or strangulation. Dr. Spitz was apparently right. I suppose these folks are deemed "experts" for a reason.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Old thread with interesting info about head blow, marks on face, scarf, etc. To think it was so hotly debated for years about which came first, the blow to head or strangulation. Dr. Spitz was apparently right. I suppose these folks are deemed "experts" for a reason.

Thank you VERY MUCH for bringing this thread to our attention. Superb discussions here!!!

 

[rashomon]

We know she was alive because there were petechiae as well as the ligature furrow being red. There is one mark that I notice on her neck that is white, however, and I often wonder if it was made after her death during the blanching (non-fixed) stage of livor mortis. That would mean that the ligature was pulled UNTIL she died, and wound around one more time after that.

DeeDee,

Where exactly is this white neck mark?

 

[rashomon]

One of the key questions of the JBR case has finally been answered in Kolar's book (on pages 63 -65).
Which came first: The head injury or the strangulaton?

The medical experts consulted by coroner Dr. Meyer together with the BPD not only unamimously agreed that the head injury occurred first, they also agreed that a substantial amount of time (which could have lasted from 45 minutes up to 2 hours) elapsed between the head injury and JonBenet's death.

p. 64:
“Necrosis,” neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that
could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two (2) hours.

 

[midwest mama]

One of the key questions of the JBR case has finally been answered in Kolar's book (on pages 63 -65).
Which came first: The head injury or the strangulaton?

The medical experts consulted by coroner Dr. Meyer together with the BPD not only unamimously agreed that the head injury occurred first, they also agreed that a substantial amount of time (which could have lasted from 45 minutes up to 2 hours) elapsed between the head injury and JonBenet's death.

Rashomon - Thank you for this. There was, in the past also commentary I have discovered after reading through a couple of old threads this last week, about the marks that are apparent on JB's lower neck, to the side of the 'parchment, rusty colored abrasion' on her lower left neck. (Abrasion, according to autopsy report) One hypothesis, is that the marks indicate there may also been some sort of strangulation attempted BEFORE the bash, and before the final ligature strangulation.

Based on what I see in the photos, strictly as an amateur, I believe her head injuries were: attempted strangulation by cloth device, head bash, white cord ligature strangulation.

If there might have been a preliminary strangulation attempt, I speculate it was done by some sort of cloth, perhaps a scarf or toweling. A knot tied out of the fabric, even if it was not pulled tight enough at the time at the time to cause unconsciousness, could have caused the neck abrasion. The cloth could have even provided padding for a manila rope type device.hoh:

If the fabric was left tied around JB's neck until AFTER her death, the white blanche mark could have occurred. If there was also a rope involved, it could have also been left in place, or removed, still leaving the underlying fabric in place. Either way, there could have been rope fibers left behind which ended up detected in forensic evidence by secondary transfer if not primary transfer.

The other possibility, IMHO for that lower set of marks, could have been caused by someone grabbing JB's red turtleneck (which Patsy told police she had put on her at bedtime) at the neck, twisting it and holding it long enough to threaten strangling her (shaking her also), causing JB to scream (neighbor's testimony), just as they dealt the head blow. The red turtleneck would have also provided padding for a rope being used around her neck during preliminary 'play' activity of any sort.

Once she crumpled from the head blow, whether she had a scarf type fabric knotted around her, or the red turtleneck, the rest of the crime, including the final ligature strangulation could have easily unfolded. Even if the white cord ligature was also applied earlier in the crime to be used as some sort of deviant device or as a 'leash', it then could have been tightened to create the final strangulation that caused complete asphyxiation.

The red turtleneck may have accounted for a few of the other red fibers found on JB, and if it was then removed after her death, and before redressing JB in the white top, it could have been put onto JB's bathroom counter. (Where it showed up in police search photos) The speculation about rinsing it out to remove stains might fit with this, if there was a bit of blood on the neck where it was twisted causing the abrasion on JB's neck, OR if some of the fluids that might have come from her mouth or nostrils after final death, had gotten on it. :sigh:

All above speculation, :moo:

 

[OpenMind4U]

Rashomon - Thank you for this. There was, in the past also commentary I have discovered after reading through a couple of old threads this last week, about the marks that are apparent on JB's lower neck, to the side of the 'parchment, rusty colored abrasion' on her lower left neck. (Abrasion, according to autopsy report) One hypothesis, is that the marks indicate there may also been some sort of strangulation attempted BEFORE the bash, and before the final ligature strangulation.

Based on what I see in the photos, strictly as an amateur, I believe her head injuries were: attempted strangulation by cloth device, head bash, white cord ligature strangulation.

If there might have been a preliminary strangulation attempt, I speculate it was done by some sort of cloth, perhaps a scarf or toweling. A knot tied out of the fabric, even if it was not pulled tight enough at the time at the time to cause unconsciousness, could have caused the neck abrasion. The cloth could have even provided padding for a manila rope type device.hoh:

If the fabric was left tied around JB's neck until AFTER her death, the white blanche mark could have occurred. If there was also a rope involved, it could have also been left in place, or removed, still leaving the underlying fabric in place. Either way, there could have been rope fibers left behind which ended up detected in forensic evidence by secondary transfer if not primary transfer.

The other possibility, IMHO for that lower set of marks, could have been caused by someone grabbing JB's red turtleneck (which Patsy told police she had put on her at bedtime) at the neck, twisting it and holding it long enough to threaten strangling her (shaking her also), causing JB to scream (neighbor's testimony), just as they dealt the head blow. The red turtleneck would have also provided padding for a rope being used around her neck during preliminary 'play' activity of any sort.

Once she crumpled from the head blow, whether she had a scarf type fabric knotted around her, or the red turtleneck, the rest of the crime, including the final ligature strangulation could have easily unfolded. Even if the white cord ligature was also applied earlier in the crime to be used as some sort of deviant device or as a 'leash', it then could have been tightened to create the final strangulation that caused complete asphyxiation.

The red turtleneck may have accounted for a few of the other red fibers found on JB, and if it was then removed after her death, and before redressing JB in the white top, it could have been put onto JB's bathroom counter. (Where it showed up in police search photos) The speculation about rinsing it out to remove stains might fit with this, if there was a bit of blood on the neck where it was twisted causing the abrasion on JB's neck, OR if some of the fluids that might have come from her mouth or nostrils after final death, had gotten on it. :sigh:

All above speculation, :moo:

MM, of course JMO, I don't believe the white line bellow the ligature was caused by twisting JBR shirt or any other garments (regardless of Kolar's agreement with this theory). And here are the reasons why I don't believe in it:

- the direction of the white line is going from the front to the back on the angle, almost like a 'V' mark which in correspondence with the partial hanging marks. Like otg stated, the partial hanging can be achived by simply standing on the knees and forwarding your body forward against the rope...as long as the rope is somehow secured from behind;
- the WIDTH of the white line is almost the same as the width of the actual ligature (see autopsy photo). In addition, the width of the white line is constant as it goes from the front to the sides. So, I don't think it was done by the scarf or any other 'elastic' fabrics.

The more I reading the old threads/posts and analyzing the 'partial hanging' - the more I'm coming back to my original theory. Before the head blow, JBR already has on her neck some kind of restrain cord/rope device for whatever reason (play? punishments?)...and when head blow accurs from the BEHIND, her body was falling forward causing the partial hanging. And I WANT to believe (this is important for me to WANT!) that this partial hanging has KILLED her. In this case (and only in this case!!!) I would accept the 'garotte' ligature as the 'staging' done by R, because at that time JBR was already death.....I know, I know, you would ask me: how about these 90 min between the head blow and strangulation?....I don't know what to say!!! :banghead: I wish I would never learned about...

JMO

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

I too believe JonBenet was struck in the head with the flashlight...in a fit of rage. The swelling from the blow caused the cord to burrow into her neck. The cord was not intentionaly tied tight as was the cord around her wrist.

So there goes the AE scenario....JonBenet was accidently hit over the head and the rest was staging.

If she was strangled first...my belief was that Burke strangled her with his Nintendo64 controller.

Camper...JonBenet's head wound was on the right side of her head...from the orbital region all the way to the back of her head. The bone on the back of her head was shattered. The flashlight is just the right length for this head injury especially since the bone shattered....which would be hard to do with a baseball bat.

was one of the R´s using the left hand to harm her? I guess so. if she was beat from the front or from behind ,someone had to use their left arm an hand, anyone knows or asked already?
try to beat someone with something on their heads, you can not do it on the right side of their skulls

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

another question
could anyone
drag his body by his arms
backward
that would mean
the position of her body?

 

[thenagain]

another question
could anyone
drag his body by his arms
backward
that would mean
the position of her body?

yes i feel the body was moved and pulled by the paintbrush string and also by the string between the wrist loops - causing the final ligature mark outside of the blanching lines and the positioning of the arms above the head.

I don't know about left hand right hand - but how about adult above and behind almost straight down but to the right - to the right side of the head - this is how I imagine the injury having happened and not from the front.

 

[UKGuy]

One of the key questions of the JBR case has finally been answered in Kolar's book (on pages 63 -65).
Which came first: The head injury or the strangulaton?

The medical experts consulted by coroner Dr. Meyer together with the BPD not only unamimously agreed that the head injury occurred first, they also agreed that a substantial amount of time (which could have lasted from 45 minutes up to 2 hours) elapsed between the head injury and JonBenet's death.

rashomon,
What does he say about Coroner Meyer's opinion that JonBenet was subject to sexual contact and digital penetration, does he offer some timeline for that?


.

 

[squish]

Regarding the paintbrush handle, I think the perpetrator (Burke, IMO) used it to sexually assault JonBenet, and the people who staged the crime (the parents, IMO) pulled it out and used it in tying it around her neck, in a hurried attempt to hide the molestation element of the crime. I also suspect that they tried to stage a strangulation, and actually thought that JonBenet was already dead, but the act of staging the strangulation finally finished her off.

 

[UKGuy]

Regarding the paintbrush handle, I think the perpetrator (Burke, IMO) used it to sexually assault JonBenet, and the people who staged the crime (the parents, IMO) pulled it out and used it in tying it around her neck, in a hurried attempt to hide the molestation element of the crime. I also suspect that they tried to stage a strangulation, and actually thought that JonBenet was already dead, but the act of staging the strangulation finally finished her off.

squish,
Something along those lines took place. That might explain the scream, but what was used to whack JonBenet on the head so fast, and why, its not as if a hand over the mouth would not be as effective?


.

 

[Chrishope]

squish,
Something along those lines took place. That might explain the scream, but what was used to whack JonBenet on the head so fast, and why, its not as if a hand over the mouth would not be as effective?


.

Just as effective, and quicker than reaching for something (even if it was close by) rearing back, and coming forward.

Plus, if the objective was to silence her, why a fatal level of force?