Head injury vs. strangulation ***WARNING! AUTOPSY PHOTOS!***

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From the 1998 interviews:

18 LOU SMIT: So you were anticipating the call from
19 the kidnapper? You made a series of calls that
20 morning. Can you remember it just kind of in
21 sequence how you did that?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Well I called -- I wanted to get
23 hold of Mike Archuleta who was waiting for us at
24 the airport by that time. I think they got a
25 number which rings into the cell phones they carry
0147
1 with them: 877-4286, I think it is.
2 I might have called that number. I don't remember
3 if I got Mike or I got Rich, his partner. I got
4 one of them. It seems like I got Rich.
5 LOU SMIT: When was that call made?
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Well this would have been probably
7 maybe 6:30, 7:00 I guess. Because I think he was
8 waiting for us (INAUDIBLE). My older kids, at that
9 time, had gotten on their plane to go to
10 Minneapolis, so there was no way I could
11 (INAUDIBLE). So I wanted to enlist Mike's help to
12 get in touch with them.
13 He volunteered to go to Minneapolis and pick them
14 up. I didn't want him to do that. So I just asked
15 him to get a hold of them when they got to
16 Minneapolis. So he took care of that.
 
Hey really is vague in his answers isn't he.

"I might have called that number. I don't remember"
"I don't remember if I got Mike or I got Rich"
"Well this would have been probably maybe 6:30, 7:00 I guess"

But then on the details of the conversation he is crystal clear. It almost seems like he is doing his best not to give anything that could be put in to a timeline.
 
andreww said:
Would the pilot have called? I would think that private jet pilots are like limo drivers and they would sit and wait until their clients were ready. What time did JR actually call the pilot?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This wasn't just a hired pilot. The Ramseys were friends with the pilot and his wife. I believe, had they not shown up for the scheduled flight, he'd have called or gone to the house.
 
DeeDee249 said:
This wasn't just a hired pilot. The Ramseys were friends with the pilot and his wife. I believe, had they not shown up for the scheduled flight, he'd have called or gone to the house.
Click to expand...

Yes...close enough to MA that JR supposedly sold MA one of his own planes for an almost unbelievably low price a few years after the murder, IIRC.
 
PMPT, p. 69-70 nook:

"A few minutes later, John Ramsey tried to phone his pilot, Mike Archuleta, to tell him what had happened and learned that the pilot was already on his way to the airport for the Ramseys’ scheduled flight to Michigan.

When Archuleta returned Ramsey’s call, Patsy answered. Archuleta told the police that Patsy had been hysterical, barely coherent. She was now being consoled by her friends when a second officer, Karl Veitch, arrived. The police then paged Mary Lou Jedamus, a victim advocate."​



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Anti-K said:
In his book, the 45 – 120 minute time is based on necrosis. In his book, the pineapple range is 2 – 5 hours.

The 45 – 120 minute time given by Kolar on Tricia’s webcast seems to be based on the pineapple digestion, and, he is saying that the head blow happened within that time frame assuming (correctly?) that the head blow would not have had any impact on the digestive process.

I think on the webcast, perhaps elsewhere, Kolar has conflated the pineapple and head blow time frames.
...

AK
Click to expand...

he is saying that the head blow happened within that time frame assuming (correctly?) that the head blow would not have had any impact on the digestive process. - Anti-K

Heyya Anti-K

So does the JK timeframe work if the digestive process ceased with the head blow?

http://books.google.ca/books?id=pOd...s how does food digest in the stomach&f=false
Textbook of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology : Principles and Practice, 5/e
By Krishan Vij

"Sometimes, the emptying of a stomach
remains in abeyance for a long time
in states of profound shock and coma.
Head injury may completely inhibit the
secretion of gastric juice, the motility
of stomach and the opening of the pylorus.
..... However, if a person has been suddenly
killed without any warning or previous state
of apprehension or fright,
it may be assumed that the normal processes of
digestion were continuing up to the point of death
and therefore, the amount and nature of the contents
will be in their usual physiological state.
It may be added that even this normal state
can be subject to personal variation and
only broad inferences can be drawn."
 
Tadpole12 said:
he is saying that the head blow happened within that time frame assuming (correctly?) that the head blow would not have had any impact on the digestive process. - Anti-K

Heyya Anti-K

So does the JK timeframe work if the digestive process ceased with the head blow?

http://books.google.ca/books?id=pOd...s how does food digest in the stomach&f=false
Textbook of Forensic Medicine and Toxicology : Principles and Practice, 5/e
By Krishan Vij

"Sometimes, the emptying of a stomach
remains in abeyance for a long time
in states of profound shock and coma.
Head injury may completely inhibit the
secretion of gastric juice, the motility
of stomach and the opening of the pylorus.
..... However, if a person has been suddenly
killed without any warning or previous state
of apprehension or fright,
it may be assumed that the normal processes of
digestion were continuing up to the point of death
and therefore, the amount and nature of the contents
will be in their usual physiological state.
It may be added that even this normal state
can be subject to personal variation and
only broad inferences can be drawn."
Click to expand...
If the digestive process seized with the head blow and if we use Kolar’s times, than we get a minimum time of 2 hours and 45 minutes between eating the pineapple and death, and a maximum time of 7 hours.
The only time that really interests me is the time between head blow and asphyxiation.

I know there’s been a lot of debate over the years regarding which came first, but I don’t know if anyone has really noted that if the head blow did come last, it still had to have come while the victim was still alive. This means that if the head blow came last, then it had to have occurred during the asphyxiation.

Of course, since the garrote would have asphyxiated hands-free, it would have been east to strike her, or to assault her while it was occurring.
...

AK
 
Anti-K said:
If the digestive process seized with the head blow and if we use Kolar’s times, than we get a minimum time of 2 hours and 45 minutes between eating the pineapple and death, and a maximum time of 7 hours.
The only time that really interests me is the time between head blow and asphyxiation.

I know there’s been a lot of debate over the years regarding which came first, but I don’t know if anyone has really noted that if the head blow did come last, it still had to have come while the victim was still alive. This means that if the head blow came last, then it had to have occurred during the asphyxiation.

Of course, since the garrote would have asphyxiated hands-free, it would have been east to strike her, or to assault her while it was occurring.
...

AK
Click to expand...

Sometimes the forensics of this case become almost benign when discussing them since they have been repeated so very many times.

But for some reason your post made the reality of ehat that child suffered seem beyond belief.

What a horror. Such a despicable death for an angelic child.
 
Anti-K said:
If the digestive process seized with the head blow and if we use Kolar’s times, than we get a minimum time of 2 hours and 45 minutes between eating the pineapple and death, and a maximum time of 7 hours.
The only time that really interests me is the time between head blow and asphyxiation.

I know there’s been a lot of debate over the years regarding which came first, but I don’t know if anyone has really noted that if the head blow did come last, it still had to have come while the victim was still alive. This means that if the head blow came last, then it had to have occurred during the asphyxiation.

Of course, since the garrote would have asphyxiated hands-free, it would have been east to strike her, or to assault her while it was occurring.
...

AK
Click to expand...

ty Anti-K

I will consider the time frame;

still wondering at what point of time within "the
possible downward spiral of events after a TBI"
http://www.uni.edu/walsh/HeadInjury.pdf
the asphyxiation may have occurred.
 
Anti-K said:
If the digestive process seized with the head blow and if we use Kolar’s times, than we get a minimum time of 2 hours and 45 minutes between eating the pineapple and death, and a maximum time of 7 hours.
The only time that really interests me is the time between head blow and asphyxiation.

I know there’s been a lot of debate over the years regarding which came first, but I don’t know if anyone has really noted that if the head blow did come last, it still had to have come while the victim was still alive. This means that if the head blow came last, then it had to have occurred during the asphyxiation.

Of course, since the garrote would have asphyxiated hands-free, it would have been east to strike her, or to assault her while it was occurring.
...

AK
Click to expand...

Anti-K,
BBM: and that is a really big if, since if you read otg's post, he suggests a lot of blood seeped into JonBenet's brain, not something that will occur if the head injury is last!

The real question is what stopped JonBenet's digestive process from continuing, since from the Autopsy Report some parts of pineapple were left in her small intestine the rest had passed through to the large intestine?

Children can digest some foods much faster than adults. Pineapple contains the enzyme bromelain, which speeds up protien breakdown, aiding digestion and is a unique source for this enzyme. Pineapple is largely water so has a fast digestion profile.

The amount of pineapple found in JonBenet's large intestine was not large, also there was pineapple left in the bowl on the table, so there was not a large amount required to be digested.

The above facts rule out JonBenet eating pineapple prior to leaving for the White's party, since whatever she consumed at the White's would rest above the pineapple already digested, also the time period between leaving for the White's party and arriving back at her own house suggests all the pineapple should have transited to the large intestine, which it did not. The autopsy report details undigested pineapple residue in her small intestine!

The small amount of pineapple eaten by JonBenet was likely digested within half an hour, leaving her stomach for the small intestine, then onto the large intestine. The residue in her small intestine suggests peristalsis had stopped along with the secretion of digestive enzymes to aid the breakdown of food.

So for roughly 30 minutes minimally to 60 minutes maximum after consuming the pineapple JonBenet was alive and uninjured.

With the head bash followed the onset of necrosis timed to have taken place from anything from 45 minutes to 120 minutes.

Adding the maximum time periods, i.e. 60 minutes for the pineapple transition and 120 minutes for the necrosis to unfold, we arrive at three hours from breakfast bar to the basement and ligature asphyxiation. Similarly for the minimal time period we estimate this to be 75 minutes.

What is interesting about the above is not that it offers an absolute time JonBenet was assaulted or a TOD, but a timeframe in which to consider all the staging that we speculate took place, since the onset of livor mortis constrains moving the body or redressing JonBenet at a later date. It does not prevent it, since JR may have relocated JonBenet that morning?

So roughly sometime about 3am on the 26th JonBenet was asphyxiated and her staging completed in the basement, leaving the R's another three hours to cleanup and author ransom notes etc.

That neither JR or PR cleaned up the breakfast bar suggests they either never knew JonBenet had snacked pineapple or in the panic forgot, since she was found say in her bedroom?



.
 
UKGuy said:
Anti-K,
BBM: and that is a really big if, since if you read otg's post, he suggests a lot of blood seeped into JonBenet's brain, not something that will occur if the head injury is last!

The real question is what stopped JonBenet's digestive process from continuing, since from the Autopsy Report some parts of pineapple were left in her small intestine the rest had passed through to the large intestine?

Children can digest some foods much faster than adults. Pineapple contains the enzyme bromelain, which speeds up protien breakdown, aiding digestion and is a unique source for this enzyme. Pineapple is largely water so has a fast digestion profile.

The amount of pineapple found in JonBenet's large intestine was not large, also there was pineapple left in the bowl on the table, so there was not a large amount required to be digested.

The above facts rule out JonBenet eating pineapple prior to leaving for the White's party, since whatever she consumed at the White's would rest above the pineapple already digested, also the time period between leaving for the White's party and arriving back at her own house suggests all the pineapple should have transited to the large intestine, which it did not. The autopsy report details undigested pineapple residue in her small intestine!

The small amount of pineapple eaten by JonBenet was likely digested within half an hour, leaving her stomach for the small intestine, then onto the large intestine. The residue in her small intestine suggests peristalsis had stopped along with the secretion of digestive enzymes to aid the breakdown of food.

So for roughly 30 minutes minimally to 60 minutes maximum after consuming the pineapple JonBenet was alive and uninjured.

With the head bash followed the onset of necrosis timed to have taken place from anything from 45 minutes to 120 minutes.

Adding the maximum time periods, i.e. 60 minutes for the pineapple transition and 120 minutes for the necrosis to unfold, we arrive at three hours from breakfast bar to the basement and ligature asphyxiation. Similarly for the minimal time period we estimate this to be 75 minutes.

What is interesting about the above is not that it offers an absolute time JonBenet was assaulted or a TOD, but a timeframe in which to consider all the staging that we speculate took place, since the onset of livor mortis constrains moving the body or redressing JonBenet at a later date. It does not prevent it, since JR may have relocated JonBenet that morning?

So roughly sometime about 3am on the 26th JonBenet was asphyxiated and her staging completed in the basement, leaving the R's another three hours to cleanup and author ransom notes etc.

That neither JR or PR cleaned up the breakfast bar suggests they either never knew JonBenet had snacked pineapple or in the panic forgot, since she was found say in her bedroom?



.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I don’t consider otg to be a meaningful authority.
.

And, there is no way to rule out an earlier time of ingestion. Also, I think you have some of your autopsy facts wrong. Plus, the 45 to 120 is, as far as I know, Rorke’s estimate, and as a few of us have already pointed out, there is reason to be skeptical of Rorke’s opinion (at least, as it is relayed by Kolar).

I think most estimates have death around 1 am, not 3 am.
...

AK
 
Anti-K said:
Sorry, but I don’t consider otg to be a meaningful authority.
.

And, there is no way to rule out an earlier time of ingestion. Also, I think you have some of your autopsy facts wrong. Plus, the 45 to 120 is, as far as I know, Rorke’s estimate, and as a few of us have already pointed out, there is reason to be skeptical of Rorke’s opinion (at least, as it is relayed by Kolar).

I think most estimates have death around 1 am, not 3 am.
...

AK
Click to expand...

Anti-K,
BBM: Well I am only speculating from the available forensic evidence. Rorke's estimate seems reasonable assuming JonBenet was bleeding into her cranium for a period of time.

On this basis I push the TOD forward, if Rorke's estimate is corrct then it must push the conventional TOD back, thereby actually validating JonBenet's date of death as recorded on her tombstone!

.
 
hey guys,
I have been following the ramsey case for 10 years now, unfortunately, looks like there is still no luck in finding the killer :(

I have always thought that the head blow came before the strangulation but it is just basic thinking tbh, as I just dont see someone hitting a victim on the head after he already strangled her..

I hope Jonbenet will soon find justice..
I remember 10-8 years ago there weren't any autopsy photos that showed JB's complete face, but I was very surprised and emotional after I saw that new photo that showed her entire face :(
I wonder guys when was this new photo of her full face leaked? and how?
 
Annapurna said:
Hey Justice, which picture are you referring to?
Click to expand...

well it's only one photo that shows her complete face, and as far as I can remember the only one to ever has her eyes and nose, it also showed bruises on her shoulder too.. :(
I think I heard elsewhere that it started showing up in 2014 or something..
 
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