Even with all we know, I’m not sure we can reasonably come to any better timeframe than what we have. It seems BPD can’t -- and they have more information than we do. We’re just left with trying to make sense of what information has been leaked out (and some of that may be completely wrong). If you recall, you and I discussed this timeframe shortly after it came out (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ames-Kolar-on-Tricia-s-True-Crime-Radio/page2). One of the things that Kolar mentioned in Tricia’s August 4, 2013, webcast was that the 45 to 120 minute timeframe was based partly on the pineapple digestion.
.
Charterhouse, I agree with all you say here. I wish I could say it as succinctly as you did.
TY, qft. As for your whine... seems like your life is as boring as mine. Ive said this before, but when I start reading this stuff, my eyes start glazing over until Im no longer even paying attention to what Im reading. (Prolly just like anyone here reading one of my posts :giggle:.) But I have to understand what Im reading. So I look up the big words as I read, and then read it over and over until I understand (I think) what Im reading. The medical stuff really is boring unless its understood. And when it is, its fascinating. (Maybe one of these days Ill get really industrious and try to understand the DNA stuff :facepalm:.)Yes, iirc, someone did make that comment about him making notes as he expected to have to testify. Sorry, don't remember the source.
Feedback, otg. I found your post on the other page to be clearly addressing the scientific validity of the timing between the head blow and the strangulation. I did not see you tackling Dr. Rorkes background, nor whether or not she provided a general opinion on TBI, nor whether the BPD investigators misinterpreted info from the coroners office. Applauds for looking at this from the scientific viewpoint.
However, heres my whine: Because of your post I spent several scintillating
Why so angry, aussiesheila? Don’t take anything said here so personally. Life's too short to be filled with anger (or cheap beer, IMO :winko
.Since Kolar’s book came out, it has pretty much been assumed that this extended period of time between the two insults was based on Dr. Rorke’s “expert” opinion about JonBenet’s injuries specifically. But you and AK have made valid arguments (IMO) that this is an incorrect assumption. Since this timeframe is so different from any other “expert” opinion, I wanted to understand what she might have based it on. I saw reasons that would have had an influence on the timeframe that she might not have considered. If however (and that’s a big IF) this timeframe is not even specific to JonBenet, there would certainly be no need even in considering it in the first place (IMO). I hope when Kolar is on Tricia’s webcast again, someone will see to it that he is asked about it for clarification.
(Sorry I didn’t realize you had already posted this passage when I did it in an earlier post. Thanks.)
Possible (except the part about BPD “pretending”, IMO).
I completely agree with you on that one, aussiesheila. I’ve said on several occasions that the complications from more than one injury changes how the body responds to any one stimulus. The complexity of multiple injuries makes an accurate determination almost impossible.
We’ll have to part ways on this one, my friend. I’ve defended Dr. Meyer in the past -- when I felt he was correct. But I’ll continue to question his ability and/or his dedication knowing some of the things he did which were just deplorable. It doesn’t matter how much experience he had, or where he was educated. And the subtleties of particular areas of expertise (e.g., Neuropathology, Pediatric Pathology, Cytopathology, Molecular Genetic Pathology) are not something that “any half intelligent first year physiology student understands.” The herniated brain “coning” I mentioned is one of those subtleties that even experienced Medical Examiners can miss. (I even offered the reasons why this is something easily overlooked.) Dr. Meyer did have the good sense though to realize when he was lacking for knowledge in certain areas, which is why he had the foresight to call in other experts in the applicable areas.
Well, neither of us knows for sure the extent of her involvement or what information/evidence was shared with her for her opinion. And as I stated today in another post, she may well have been speaking only in general terms when she passed on this information. If that’s the case, I have no problem with completely ignoring this timeframe. But you understand that a lot of people have bought into the notion that JonBenet could have lived for up to two hours after being struck on the head. I think it’s important to find out if it’s true, because I don’t believe it. (I don’t think though that this is what the BPD is trying to get the public to believe.)
Me too -- but then, I do whenever I open my mouth... er, uh, I mean, “flex my typing fingers.”
I took UKG's statement to mean her hymenal opening.
"Digital" or "analog". :floorlaugh:
Even with all we know, I’m not sure we can reasonably come to any better timeframe than what we have. It seems BPD can’t -- and they have more information than we do. We’re just left with trying to make sense of what information has been leaked out (and some of that may be completely wrong). If you recall, you and I discussed this timeframe shortly after it came out (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ames-Kolar-on-Tricia-s-True-Crime-Radio/page2). One of the things that Kolar mentioned in Tricia’s August 4, 2013, webcast was that the 45 to 120 minute timeframe was based partly on the pineapple digestion.
I’ve always had doubts about the validity of that timeframe, but that was when we all understood Kolar’s book to mean that it was based on Dr. Rorke’s estimate alone. Here is what he wrote in his book:
Dr. Lucy Rorke, a neuro-pathologist with the Philadelphia Children's Hospital, helped explain the timing of some of the injuries sustained by JonBenet. She told investigators that the blow to the skull had immediately begun to hemorrhage, and it was not likely that she would have regained consciousness after receiving this injury. The blow to the head, if left untreated, would have been fatal.
The presence of cerebral edema, swelling of the brain, suggested that JonBenet had survived for some period of time after receiving the blow to her head. Blood from the injury slowly began to fill the cavity of the skull and began to build up pressure on her brain. As pressure increased, swelling was causing the medulla of the brain to push through the foramen magnum, the narrow opening at the base of the skull.
Dr. Rorke estimated that it would have taken an hour or so for the cerebral edema to develop, but that this swelling had not yet caused JonBenet's death. "Necrosis," neurological changes to the brain cells, indicated a period of survival after the blow that could have ranged from between forty-five (45) minutes and two (2) hours.
As pressure in her skull increased, JonBenet was beginning to experience the effects of “brain death.” Her neurological and biological systems were beginning to shut down, and she may have been exhibition signs of cheyne-stokes breathing. These are short, gasping breaths that may be present as the body struggles to satisfy its need for oxygen in the final stages of death.
The medical experts were in agreement: the blow to JonBenet’s skull had taken place some period of time prior to her death by strangulation. The bruising beneath the garrote and the petechial hemorrhaging in her face and eyes were conclusive evidence that she was still alive when the tightening of the ligature ended her life.
The medical consultants considered the timing of the tracking of the pineapple that had moved through JonBenet’s digestive track (sic). It was generally agreed that the timing of the ingestion of this fruit could have coincided with the time frame regarding her head injury. It was estimated that it would have taken between two to five hours for the pineapple to move through her system. It appeared to investigators that she had eaten the pineapple not long before receiving the blow to her head.
I remembered Kolar saying on the radio that part of that estimate was based the pineapple digestion. But I went back and listened again to his statement. Here is what Kolar said (without the "uh"s) on Tricia’s webcast (8-4-2013, beginning at about 13 minutes) when she asked about the time between ingestion of pineapple and actual death:
From the reports that I reviewed, they were looking at somewhere between a 45 minute to perhaps an hour-and-a-half, upwards of possibly 2 hours. And that was based on what their thinking was the time of ingestion of the pineapple coupled with the traveling through her digestive tract as well as the amount of blood and swelling of the brain after the blow to the head.
Those are the time frames that I put in my book that were provided by some of the medical experts that were interviewed and consulted with by the BPD.
So now I’m beginning to wonder exactly where the 45 to 120 minute timeframe came from. Was that Rorke’s opinion based solely on the condition of JonBenet’s brain, was that an interpretation by investigators based on more than one source and passed on to Kolar, was that Kolar’s interpretation based on what he read in BPD reports, or was the extended timeframe not at all about JonBenet’s individual circumstances but instead about TBIs in general (as some are suggesting)? I don’t know the answer; but I have even more doubts now about this timeframe than I did to start with (and I haven’t even gotten to the problems with “necrosis”
But what im saying is they couldnt call 911 early(that would be suspicious) because they had plans... They would not have had the time to call any earlier and still have time to stage, (shower away the evidence, and put on fresh makeup) so imo they waited until 5:52 that morning because they had a scheduled flight and had to be at the airport. That way they would "wake" up to get ready for their trip and realize she was "kidnapped". And I agree when you say they didnt want to get her help because secrets would have been told and they just couldnt have that.
